Monster Hunter General Discussion Thread.

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Title Update 2's out!

Spoiler: My thoughts on Flaming Espinas

Flaming Espinas is a bit disappointing; the fight just feels like Espinas but slightly harder and locked in a single arena. The nuke was a real let-down; I thought it'd track more, and aside from the one time it did a follow-up, I cannot for the life of me imagine how anyone could possibly get hit by that slow-ass move. Still, it's not a bad fight by any means, as Espinas itself is a unique and fun monster already. Holy shit that cutscene though. Teostra got straight Kinship Attack'd.

Holy ****, did he just One-Shot an Elder Dragon with his nuke attack?

 

[Sigilavox]

Holy ****, did he just One-Shot an Elder Dragon with his nuke attack?

Technically, even if the Teostra did die there, it wouldn't be a one-shot since they were in the middle of a fight. The cutscene avoids showing the results as it did the Violet Mizutsune vs. Tigrex match, which imo disconfirms the implication of a hard one-shot victory anyways.

I also think that since the explosion seems to have been twofold, it's possible the Flaming Espinas's fireball hit and then triggered all the explosive scales on Teostra's body, vastly increasing the size of the explosion; especially since the nuke in-game is kinda pathetically small in comparison.

 

[Rich987]

The best was Espinas simply receiving the blow from Teostra in the chest and not showing any kind of problem, gigantic resistance I could say.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Aren't Teostra's Resistant to Fire and Explosions? They take zero damage from the explosions they create in combination with Lunastras despite being completely engulfed by them. So if Flaming Espinas potentially One-Shot it with it's Nuke, then that Nuke is absurdly powerful, even if it was using Teostra's Explosive Dust against it, which might also be an intelligence feat if it recognized that fact and used it against it.

 

[DMUA]

Honestly, something I've been thinking about on and off is if Monsters just have Resistance Negation

Since they can inflict blights and generally damage monsters no matter what their resistances are, while the hunters just do a little bit more damage from hitting their weaknesses

Either that or it's just that a Hunter doesn't fully scale in terms of AP, they're more a stone wall that inflicts injuries over the course of a prolonged period to finally kill a monster, and hitting them with elemental attacks from another monster of similar or greater power just has an easier time hitting home

 

[Sigilavox]

Honestly, something I've been thinking about on and off is if Monsters just have Resistance Negation

Since they can inflict blights and generally damage monsters no matter what their resistances are, while the hunters just do a little bit more damage from hitting their weaknesses

Either that or it's just that a Hunter doesn't fully scale in terms of AP, they're more a stone wall that inflicts injuries over the course of a prolonged period to finally kill a monster, and hitting them with elemental attacks from another monster of similar or greater power just has an easier time hitting home

Yeah, Teostra walks in lava in the Rise cutscene no problem, but then can get set aflame from something like an Aknosom dropping a cream puff of flame on its nose. Gameplay mechanics, obviously, but there is something to be said there as a quality of the setting that monsters can pretty unilaterally affect each other. There's also wyvern riding monsters into others and damaging the likes of Scorned Magnamalo and Teostra with a Great Baggi.

 

[Sigilavox]

Aren't Teostra's Resistant to Fire and Explosions? They take zero damage from the explosions they create in combination with Lunastras despite being completely engulfed by them. So if Flaming Espinas potentially One-Shot it with it's Nuke, then that Nuke is absurdly powerful, even if it was using Teostra's Explosive Dust against it, which might also be an intelligence feat if it recognized that fact and used it against it.

Not sure it's intelligence so much as using its strongest move against a threat that it couldn't overpower physically.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Not sure it's intelligence so much as using its strongest move against a threat that it couldn't overpower physically.

More than likely but I still think the fact that he potentially One-Shot a Monster that No-Sells the heat of Lava and it's own explosions with a fireball is pretty ridiculous.

 

[Sigilavox]

More than likely but I still think the fact that he potentially One-Shot a Monster that No-Sells the heat of Lava and it's own explosions with a fireball is pretty ridiculous.

Yeah, that gigantic fireball attack is no joke. It's certainly one of the strongest attacks from a monster of similar rank. And Espinas proves once more that it's simply tanky to another level.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yeah, that gigantic fireball attack is no joke. It's certainly one of the strongest attacks from a monster of similar rank. And Espinas proves once more that it's simply tanky to another level.

Agreed. So when is that bad nasty getting added to the Profile? I feel like it would be a pretty easy addition to make considering it's just some extra Fire Manipulation and a "Higher with Insert Attack Name here".

 

[Sigilavox]

Agreed. So when is that bad nasty getting added to the Profile? I feel like it would be a pretty easy addition to make considering it's just some extra Fire Manipulation and a "Higher with Insert Attack Name here".

I had updated the name and render back when the trailer first came out, but I can also add the specific attack mentioned to the AP as a "higher" rating. Would that be a CRT?

Edit: Here's my sandbox for a small update.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I had updated the name and render back when the trailer first came out, but I can also add the specific attack mentioned to the AP as a "higher" rating. Would that be a CRT?

Edit: Here's my sandbox for a small update.

That would require a CRT, yes.

 

[Sigilavox]

That would require a CRT, yes.

Here you go, folks: Flaming Espinas Update CRT

 

[Sigilavox]

You guys’ll love this.

“The eater of legends glared at the black dragon below, and the rubble cracked under the force of its claws. By then, it was too late for its prey. The devourer sprang from its perch with a powerful leap, beginning the ambush.”

From Teppen, that Capcom IP mobile card game. There is a special card called "Legend-Eater Nergigante", which is probably this individual.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

You guys’ll love this.

“The eater of legends glared at the black dragon below, and the rubble cracked under the force of its claws. By then, it was too late for its prey. The devourer sprang from its perch with a powerful leap, beginning the ambush.”

From Teppen, that Capcom IP mobile card game. There is a special card called "Legend-Eater Nergigante", which is probably this individual.

So it's a specific Nergigante that can throw down with Black Dragons.

 

[Sigilavox]

So it's a specific Nergigante that can throw down with Black Dragons.

Granted black dragons scale weirdly in Teppen, with Alatreon never being depicted as particularly powerful and more like just another creature in the Land of Illusion while Fatalis defeats an entire 4-A divine army in the ancient times.

 

[Sigilavox]

Actually, I guess every single creature in Teppen scales to 4-A Myria from Breath of Fire then, considering how Ryu and the rest of the main cast fight her in the second-most recent expansion. So any monster that's in Teppen scales to 4-A, rendering the whole point moot I guess.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Hmmm... between Alatreon getting eaten in Teppen, being used as a measuring stick for Safi'jiiva in Iceborne and having to fight a heavily nerfed Alatreon before we can fight Fatalis in Iceborne. It seems the Blazing Black dragon has been kinda jobbered tbh.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Hmmm... between Alatreon getting eaten in Teppen, being used as a measuring stick for Safi'jiiva in Iceborne and having to fight a heavily nerfed Alatreon before we can fight Fatalis in Iceborne. It seems the Blazing Black dragon has been kinda jobbered tbh.

Well not really considering the game outright has that one hunter say he has no idea who would win between Safi'jiiva and Alatreon. That's a pretty big compliment considering he knows that Safi'jiiva has a literal One-Shot Kill Move and the fact that Safi'jiiva is stated in the guide to be a rival for Fatalis, meaning that Alatreon is also a Rival for Fatalis given it could potentially beat Safi'jiiva. Sounds pretty fair if you ask me.

 

[DMUA]

Yeah I think I did notice that as I was doing stuff

might need to do a bit more with that blog I made earlier

I forgot about this, if I remember tomorrow I'll probably give it a go, along with the Rajang rock throw

I know the next best is like, 8-C, for the bulk of monsters that don't hit Apex tier?

 

[DMUA]

Yeah reviewing it, a recalc isn't worth it

Even if it was all stone, the pieces are big enough that it should be fragmentation anyways

Left a comment on the original blog on the topic (along with Giadrome not really being able to totally freeze large monsters) but besides that I think we'd be fine with like, putting everything at 9-A, maybe 8-C from upscaling how casual some of these feats are

 

[Sigilavox]

Yeah reviewing it, a recalc isn't worth it

Even if it was all stone, the pieces are big enough that it should be fragmentation anyways

Makes sense.

Left a comment on the original blog on the topic (along with Giadrome not really being able to totally freeze large monsters) but besides that I think we'd be fine with like, putting everything at 9-A, maybe 8-C from upscaling how casual some of these feats are

Which is the feat we're scaling things to get 9-A for? I take it "Room level" is something like "Small Building level"?

 

[deonment]

Room level

that is a blast from the past

 

[DMUA]

Yeah

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Honestly, something I've been thinking about on and off is if Monsters just have Resistance Negation

Since they can inflict blights and generally damage monsters no matter what their resistances are, while the hunters just do a little bit more damage from hitting their weaknesses

Either that or it's just that a Hunter doesn't fully scale in terms of AP, they're more a stone wall that inflicts injuries over the course of a prolonged period to finally kill a monster, and hitting them with elemental attacks from another monster of similar or greater power just has an easier time hitting home

I'm uber late to this but considering the Hunter is unable to inflict blights if the monster is resistant to it but other monsters are still affected then it could. It also could just be a higher potency of the hax since we need to figure out if the resistance is actually being ignored or just overpowered.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

You know, I'm surprised that nobody has calc'd this feat at 0:41. I doubt it'll be better than Lagiacrus' Calc but it's still an impressive feat given how big that explosion is and how it sends those trees flying.

 

[DMUA]

Is Banbaro an Apex tier monster?

I figure they'd actually be a solid fill in for Barroth's feat, since we're ditching that... Not that I'm sure even KE would make just launching a set of trees that impressive, but I could try it out, probably

 

[Sigilavox]

That seems like it would be a shear feat for several trees and then a fragmentation feat for the wood barricade. It’s interesting for sure, though probably not as high as it might seem at first.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

That seems like it would be a shear feat for several trees and then a fragmentation feat for the wood barricade. It’s interesting for sure, though probably not as high as it might seem at first.

Like I said, it's probably not a great feat but at the very least it should give us a replacement for Barroth Tier Monsters, you know? Banbaro has a turf war with Barrioth where it gets absolutely stomped into the dirt implying it's not an Apex Tier Monster.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Btw, can we talk about the fact that Lunagaron can successfully tag and briefly pin down Malzeno, an Elder Dragon, before getting clobbered?

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Btw, can we talk about the fact that Lunagaron can successfully tag and briefly pin down Malzeno, an Elder Dragon, before getting clobbered?

Odogaron does something similar

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Odogaron does something similar

No, Odogaron jumped on Vaal Hazak and started eating its rotten flesh cloak before getting shit on by Vaal Hazak casually gassing it. Lunagaron unironically clashes with Malzeno while backflipping over it and slamming its head into the ground before trying to bite its throat and then gets grabbed by Malzeno's tail and gets aerial combo'd because it can't do anything in the air. Massive difference.

 

[DMUA]

Btw, can we talk about the fact that Lunagaron can successfully tag and briefly pin down Malzeno, an Elder Dragon, before getting clobbered?

Not really via strength

They grabbed their head and used their own weight to flip them over, manage some chip damage, and then Malzeno gets a solid grip and demolishes them from there

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Not really via strength

They grabbed their head and used their own weight to flip them over, manage some chip damage, and then Malzeno gets a solid grip and demolishes them from there

Yeah, but that's still impressive that they even did any damage at all considering it's the only Apex Monster that fights an Elder Dragon and can actually do something even if it does end up losing. While we're on the topic of Turf Wars, I noticed that Velkhana is the only Elder Dragon that can push Ruiner Nergigante off it when it gets slammed into the ground, the others just get steamrolled. Also yes, it can only get into Turf Wars with the Ruiner Version, so Velkhana has a solid reasoning for scaling above normal Elder Dragons since it also has that feat of knocking out a post-Xeno'jiiva Sapphire Star.

 

[Sigilavox]

Like I said, it's probably not a great feat but at the very least it should give us a replacement for Barroth Tier Monsters, you know? Banbaro has a turf war with Barrioth where it gets absolutely stomped into the dirt implying it's not an Apex Tier Monster.

Of course, I'm not denying that. Though I still think the anthill destruction feat could be a good Barroth-tier feat regardless, as 9-A seems to be on par with most of what we see from such monsters like Barroth or Tetranodon.

No, Odogaron jumped on Vaal Hazak and started eating its rotten flesh cloak before getting shit on by Vaal Hazak casually gassing it. Lunagaron unironically clashes with Malzeno while backflipping over it and slamming its head into the ground before trying to bite its throat and then gets grabbed by Malzeno's tail and gets aerial combo'd because it can't do anything in the air. Massive difference.

I really have no opinion on whether it'd be wiser to put Lunagaron or Black Diablos or whatnot on High 6-C with the rest of Kushala-adjacent monsters, but I do think there's something to be said about Lunagaron outspeeding and knocking down Malzeno in their first clash. Given that Zinogre fights pretty much on par with Lunagaron, we might be able to just say all apex/large monsters are comparable with elder dragons in terms of speed.

Regarding other trains of thought, something I've been mulling about recently regarding how Capcom treats its monsters is that nearly all of them can injure and slap each other around to a degree, of course admitting that some are clearly more powerful than others in certain ways. Lunagaron, being a strongish non-elder dragon monster, can definitely knock down Malzeno and yank it around, for a bit at least. No debating that.

I also feel like the in-universe gap between monsters is far closer than our verse page goes by. Wouldn't an ecosystem like Monster Hunter's just... not exist, if some species were just inherently billions of times stronger than others? These aren't individual characters, they're whole-ass species of monsters living across the entire world.

Plus, if we're having such huge gaps in strength, then if a hunter can take down one of those insanely powerful monsters, it wouldn't make sense for said hunter to lose to or be even touched by anything of the lower tiers. In-universe, hunters obviously don't just "no sell" apex monster attacks or one shot the latter just because they can take on an elder dragon. We'd definitely see or hear about stuff like that happening if that were the case.

Even the post-Xeno'jiiva Sapphire Star runs from and sizes up a bog-standard Barioth, and later does the same to a Rathalos. In the Rathalos's case, regardless of whether it was scaled higher due to being in the guiding lands, there's no reason the Sapphire Star would know that. Also, did the Banbaro, Tigrex, Acidic Glavenus, etc. all do their cool cutscene thing and then just get one-tapped by the Sapphire Star, canonically? Like, is that what we're going with? That your hunter, who took down several elder dragons before, can just facetank and then one-shot any monster before Velkhana due to having a 28-billion multiplier? As skilled as the story paints your character, I don't think that is what's implied or even stated to ever happen.

 

[DMUA]

but I do think there's something to be said about Lunagaron outspeeding and knocking down Malzeno in their first clash. Given that Zinogre fights pretty much on par with Lunagaron, we might be able to just say all apex/large monsters are comparable with elder dragons in terms of speed.

All the more reason for me to like, actually remember to record footage for and calculate dodging monster roars (probably from Puki Puki since that's super easy to roll through and the first monster in World with a roar that can deafen)

Though funnily enough, a monster being outsped seems to be a bit rarer than a monster being overpowered. Like, Anjanath's turf war with Rathalos boils down to them not really being able to figure out what to do with the fact Rathalos can fly before they just pick him up and throw him, but other than that I'm sorta drawing blanks, so this may just be a thing unless I remember some solid anti-feats

I also feel like the in-universe gap between monsters is far closer than our verse page goes by. Wouldn't an ecosystem like Monster Hunter's just... not exist, if some species were just inherently billions of times stronger than others? These aren't individual characters, they're whole-ass species of monsters living across the entire world.

I mean, even by pure canon, something like a Kirin gets utterly curbstomped by a Rajang. They aren't extinct, probably because they're a lot stronger than most other monsters that could capitalize on damage that Rajang does to it, and they may just reproduce faster outright.

A similar principle probably applies across the board, Diablos can instantly kill Barroths, Odogaron gets taken out just as fast against Vaal Hazak, but they're both still around. There's a lot more factors to a species survival than just "do you win in a fight against these immense forces of nature that occasionally show up and decide to cause trouble"

Like, the Seregios exodus is a pretty perfect example of this, they just realized they had no chance again an Apex and just left for another environment they could survive in. I have to imagine similar situations have occured in MH with Elder Dragons causing major havoc

Even the post-Xeno'jiiva Sapphire Star runs from and sizes up a bog-standard Barioth, and later does the same to a Rathalos. In the Rathalos's case, regardless of whether it was scaled higher due to being in the guiding lands, there's no reason the Sapphire Star would know that. Also, did the Banbaro, Tigrex, Acidic Glavenus, etc. all do their cool cutscene thing and then just get one-tapped by the Sapphire Star, canonically? Like, is that what we're going with? That your hunter, who took down several elder dragons before, can just facetank and then one-shot any monster before Velkhana due to having a 28-billion multiplier? As skilled as the story paints your character, I don't think that is what's implied or even stated to ever happen.

Well, on the other hand, he doesn't really have particular trouble with these monsters. Like, he doesn't just one shot them but it's not a big deal when he beats yet another monster after all he's been through. The only real monster even shown to properly damage him is Velkhana knocking him out (and also similarly incapacitating the Huntsman). With the guiding lands, they were also in unfamiliar territory and their goal was to establish camp. Why not just retreat for the moment and do any necessary hunting later, rather than after they've been put on the spot via an ambush (while the much more vulnerable handler is right there with them, mind you)

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So how are the potential Calcs for the other Kinship Moves coming along? I really think that Velkhana one is gonna yield some cracked numbers considering that was basically Madara's Tengai Shinsei being used but made of solid ice instead.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Am I the only one who noticed that Normal Anjanath only started competing in Turf Wars with Apex Tiers in Rise since it didn't get the same turf wars as Fulgur Anjanath did in World?

 

[Sigilavox]

A similar principle probably applies across the board, Diablos can instantly kill Barroths, Odogaron gets taken out just as fast against Vaal Hazak, but they're both still around. There's a lot more factors to a species survival than just "do you win in a fight against these immense forces of nature that occasionally show up and decide to cause trouble"

Yeah, I guess the point is these forces of nature are dangerous yet rare, so it maybe sort of checks out. Like a natural disaster or whatever. Still, regarding using curbstomps as evidence, it's perfectly reasonable for something to one-shot something on a similar wavelength as itself, since, like, an IRL lion can one-shot a zebra despite both being the same tier. Sort of comes with the territory of having an ecology. That's basically how most predators would ideally like to hunt, in order to save energy and all.

Well, on the other hand, he doesn't really have particular trouble with these monsters. Like, he doesn't just one shot them but it's not a big deal when he beats yet another monster after all he's been through. The only real monster even shown to properly damage him is Velkhana knocking him out (and also similarly incapacitating the Huntsman). With the guiding lands, they were also in unfamiliar territory and their goal was to establish camp. Why not just retreat for the moment and do any necessary hunting later, rather than after they've been put on the spot via an ambush (while the much more vulnerable handler is right there with them, mind you)

Still, AP isn't just defined by how easily you can beat something, right? If something can survive a hit from something else, then their durability is scaled to that. Hunters can also still be injured by monsters who are considered to have AP much lower than their own, or else the stakes of all these stories and the order you fight monsters in wouldn't make sense. The Sapphire Star definitely cowers and flinches away from regular log debris and the Rathalos before the Zinogre intercepts it, so it's not like they didn't feel threatened by the monster at all.

I find the process of justifying how there are hunters who can fight these godlike things and yet have trouble with "regular monsters" considered far beneath them... odd. The Hell Hunters actively consider Tigrex to be their rival for taking them down from their glory days, while they can take on an Ashen Lao and Lunastra at the same time. It doesn't make sense that they could have fallen from their "glory days", mope around, and then casually take down elder dragons without already being able to beat elder dragons back in the day... when they lost to a Tigrex.

Plus, we have Velkhana tying with all the elder dragons (and Jho/Jang) it fights in turf wars, so shouldn't they be on par with it (i.e. Xeno+ tier), too?

Am I the only one who noticed that Normal Anjanath only started competing in Turf Wars with Apex Tiers in Rise since it didn't get the same turf wars as Fulgur Anjanath did in World?

Yeah, an NPC in World made a point of mentioning how "middle-of-the-line" Anjanath was, below Rathalos but above Tobi-Kadachi, like a perfect "middle-tier monster". Iceborne was made by a different director with different ideas for how the monsters should turf against each other (read: all against each other), and since Rise doesn't have another powerful brute wyvern, they probably just went, "well, this turf war is what we got, may as well re-use the animations!"

And it keeps its losing turf war with Rathalos and it reuses the animation to lose against Rathian for good measure, which is something they did not do in World. I don't even think it's altitude-based like it is with Glavenus vs. Rathalos, where if in the Rathalos's home turf high up, Rathalos wins, but down on the ground level, the brute wins, it's just Anjanath loses. Aerial superiority for the win, I guess.

 

[DMUA]

Still, regarding using curbstomps as evidence, it's perfectly reasonable for something to one-shot something on a similar wavelength as itself, since, like, an IRL lion can one-shot a zebra despite both being the same tier.

Yeah, that does make sense, but what also makes sense is some monsters being dramatically stronger than others and thus being able to instantly kill them and take a nap while the rest of it's species reproduces to keep the ecosystem stable.

Still, AP isn't just defined by how easily you can beat something, right? If something can survive a hit from something else, then their durability is scaled to that. Hunters can also still be injured by monsters who are considered to have AP much lower than their own, or else the stakes of all these stories and the order you fight monsters in wouldn't make sense. The Sapphire Star definitely cowers and flinches away from regular log debris and the Rathalos before the Zinogre intercepts it, so it's not like they didn't feel threatened by the monster at all.

I mean, yeah, it doesn't. This guy goes straight from fighting a potentially world ravaging threat supercharged on several elder dragon's bioenergy to having to deal with a fish in snow, even casual observation can pretty easily tell it's a downgrade for the purposes of gameplay. Not sure if it's a relevant equivalence, but this whole thing does bring to mind God of War where the creators explicitly say "yeah canonically Kratos would just instantly one-shot everything he encounters and open chests with ease but that's not very fun"

The fact is we really technically don't see him get hurt or particularly threatened by anything besides Velkhana in cutscenes, they just handle monsters as a regular procedure. It's better to just roll with the fact it was more fun to introduce classic monsters that happened to be a bit weaker Elder Dragons rather then making any solid statements on the gap between Apex and Elder Dragon

Plus, we have Velkhana tying with all the elder dragons (and Jho/Jang) it fights in turf wars, so shouldn't they be on par with it (i.e. Xeno+ tier), too?

I mean, those turf wars are it tying with High 6-Cs, so I don't quite know. It's at least somewhat likely given it is a genuine threat in Iceborne that beat the Huntsman and forced Selina to break out high tech weapons to repel, so it might be a thing

And it keeps its losing turf war with Rathalos and it reuses the animation to lose against Rathian for good measure, which is something they did not do in World. I don't even think it's altitude-based like it is with Glavenus vs. Rathalos, where if in the Rathalos's home turf high up, Rathalos wins, but down on the ground level, the brute wins, it's just Anjanath loses. Aerial superiority for the win, I guess.

Flight is really strong, might also be a speed gap since Anjanath doesn't really properly react to Rathalos before they just get picked up and tossed

never did make that roar dodge calc, I'm a bit all over the place mentally