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Thank you for the evaluation. I will expand upon the twins point a bit, though; The Sisters of Fate are able to create new life, being described as the genesis of all. I would attribute the creation of twins to that subset of their powers, rather than biological manipulation.I have been asked to provide input here.
Importantly, I feel I should acknowledge this issue, since it was a clear point of confusion earlier in the discussion.
'Burden of proof' is not a difficult thing to discern - when you have a situation where multiple conclusions are possible, and you say "this conclusion is the correct one", you have the burden of proof to say why it is the correct one and the others are not. Most of the arguments for biological manipulation have been variations of taking quotes that ambiguously, potentially could be biological manipulation, or could have alternate, non-biological manipulation explanations, and assuming the former is the truth of the matter. The King could have lost his legs in many different ways - and in fact, the established context quite clearly implies he lost them in a war - and all we know for sure is that they changed his fate from him dying to him losing his legs in some manner. The birthing of 'improbable offspring' could also occur in many different ways, and the most that we know is that they can someway, somehow change fate to make such events happen. Taking these ambiguous circumstances, where it could have happened in some way that fits our standard or could have happened some way that wouldn't, and asserting that the mere possibility of the former is reason enough to apply it is never how we've built our profiles.
The only scan I think is really worthy of consideration in this regard is the 'twins' scan. I don't really agree with Deagon's reading that the 'twins' are the threads themselves and not the people represented by those threads. Considering that the threads are explicitly physical representations of individual people that can be manipulated to change the individual's fate, and that splitting one thread in half was called 'birth[ing] twins', I think it's quite clear the intended reading of the passage was 'this person who would have previously been a single person has become twins'. Independently of my issues with the refutations, though, this falls into a similar issue with the previous issues - what's the mechanic behind 'birth[ing] twins' here? Did they literally, directly change the mother's womb so that she would give birth to two people instead of one? Or did they, for example, change the events surrounding the birth so that she would give birth to twins? We don't know. The scan doesn't say how it works. I recognise the distinct possibility here, but I wouldn't sign off on this as a feat of biological manipulation off of the scan in isolation.
So, I have to agree with the removal of the ability. I would not be surprised if the Sisters of Fate have more explicit feats of biological manipulation, but I find all of these suggestions tenuous.
Wanted to do a test run of downgrading GoW, and this seemed like the most straightforward and uncontroversial removal.why, of all the things you could have picked, chose bio manip?
Eh I don’t think it going unsaid is evidence it’s not the mechanism; especially considering you’ve mentioned them using direct means before.Pretty much this, also in those cases of the Sisters causing accidents, illnesses or wars, it's pretty explicitly specified in the novel what the Sisters do (Like, if they wanna bestow illnesses, they mention it, if they wanna sink a continent, they sink it, if they wanna cause dissent with the Threads, it happens without any other external factor being involved). Here tho, no such thing is expressed.
Yeah this definitely seems like the better example to useShe's talking about how they breed improbable lovers together, like a demigod and a living cloud having offspring.
That same chapter, she turns a single conception into twins.
I'm gonna disagree with this logic, just because you using one power to achieve another effects, doesn't make the effect less qualify. Using Conceptual Manipulation to erase someone from existence, doesn't make it not qualify as Existence Erasure, as the power still perform existence erasure feat, no reason to disqualify it. If GoW Sister of Fate using Fate/Probability hax to directly manipulate someone biology, doesn't make it not qualify as Bio hax since it still achieve the effect of Bio hax. This logic of your doesn't sound, because we could just delete most power like Conceptual hax, Law hax, Fate hax, etc...... cause they are just extension, variation of Reality WarpingAgreed with Grath's take 100% here. If you can warp probabilities and fate into specific circumstances, you can accomplish a lot of feats that other powers could achieve. Twins being born in a womb is mostly a matter of simple luck. If they can turn that 1 in 250 chance into a 100% chance then that's not biological manipulation, they're Gods of fate after all.
Wanted to do a test run of downgrading GoW, and this seemed like the most straightforward and uncontroversial removal.
...Which means this thread is a terrible omen of things yet to come. Lucky me.
That's not what he's suggesting. The issue is that there's no evidence bio manip occurred and the events are already sufficiently explained by fate manip.If GoW Sister of Fate using Fate/Probability hax to directly manipulate someone biology, doesn't make it not qualify as Bio hax since it still achieve the effect of Bio hax
Nothing says "the original person was already conceived" in the text. Literally no information is provided aside from textile metaphors and an out of place "births twins." So this doesn't really matter. You're extrapolating from information that isn't there.Regarding that twin issue, the thread already existing before hand means that the original person was already conceived, so it wouldn't make sense for it to be circumstantial changes that made her conceive twins instead.
It wouldn't really make sense for it to be a matter of probability since its not making a woman who'd have given had a lone child be pregnant with twins instead, but rather turning said child (whose life thread means he already exists) into two new beings with their own threads.
I'm talking about how the life threads act generally in the novel, not just in that specific scan. They correspond with every living being that exists so this would've made more sense to be altering circumstances surrounding their birth if the threads were made separately beforehand.That's not what he's suggesting. The issue is that there's no evidence bio manip occurred and the events are already sufficient explained by fate manip.
Causing a guy to lose his legs in war is not Bio manip. Chancing someone to have twins isn't Bio manip unless it involves affecting their biology and not simply probability.
Nothing says "the original person was already conceived" in the text. Literally no information is provided aside from textile metaphors and an out of place "births twins." So this doesn't really matter. You're extrapolating from information that isn't there.
I'm not really follow the thread cause somehow it lasted 5 pages, and probably gonna reach 6. But anyway what i want to refute is his, and to an extent @DarkGrath logic as a whole, because from his comment, they implied that wayThat's not what he's suggesting. The issue is that there's no evidence bio manip occurred and the events are already sufficient explained by fate manip.
This is still quite a reach. We aren't given that kind of information about how new lives turn into threads or etc. By the point she splits the thread it hasn't been attached to a spool. The idea that the thread must have been an existing life (or pregnancy) that was biologically manipulated into two lives goes well beyond what we are actually told.I'm talking about how the life threads act generally in the novel, not just in that specific scan. They correspond with every living being that exists so this would've made more sense to be altering circumstances if the threads were made separately beforehand.
It's demonstrated pretty clearly by the time Kratos reaches the Loom chamber and starts interacting with the threads (notably by him directly harming himself by touching his own thread). And by how the weaves directly correspond to human nations and groups.This is still quite a reach. We aren't given that kind of information about how new lives turn into threads or etc. By the point she splits the thread it hasn't been attached to a spool. The idea that the thread must have been an existing life (or pregnancy) that was magically or biologically manipulated into two lives goes well beyond what we are actually told.
In any case, this is all deviates pretty egregiously from the Fates' role in the world and typical power set. This entire issue should've been resolved fairly quickly. There's no good direct evidence for bio manip, only certain gaps/vagueness where it could be theorized, and the situations at hand can already be explained with their existing powers.
That's a hasty generalization fallacy. The fact that there are threads that do represent existing lives does not mandate that all of them do, even before they are placed on the loom.It's demonstrated pretty clearly by the time Kratos reaches the Loom chamber and starts interacting with the threads (notably by him directly harming himself by touching his own thread). And by how the weaves directly correspond to human nations and groups
No one has taken the stance that it needs to be a 1:1 reflection of Greek myths. The issue is with taking the stance (with absolutely no evidence in favor) that the best explanation for a ruler losing his legs is bio manip instead of happening during his lifetime. Or that the Fates must use their grand bio manip abilities to dictate what kind of offspring are possible.That second and third paragraph is to be blunt, a non-sequitir. This is a video game adaptation, that it isn't a 1:1 representation of their powers is pretty obvious. That you disagree with the addition is honestly whatever, this likely is getting removed but it is getting tiring to see responses that constantly seeming like it can't fathom a different opinion or stance.
I would need to review the GoW lore - and particularly, looking at the novel for myself may be useful in this regard - to say for sure how the Moirai's alterations of fate work. However, off of what I already know, this seems tenuous.I'm talking about how the life threads act generally in the novel, not just in that specific scan. They correspond with every living being that exists so this would've made more sense to be altering circumstances surrounding their birth if the threads were made separately beforehand.
It isn't, the new scan is also still just Fate manip.I think is fairly simple… Just replace the scan…
"Clotho weaves a thread of life for every mortal, God and Titan" is the first thing you hear upon entering the Loom Chamber. This is just basic information about how the Sisters of Fate operate. "The threads span all life and time" is another thing you hear about the Sisters from Kratos himself. This is all in-game dialogue.That's a hasty generalization fallacy. The fact that there are threads that do represent existing lives does not mandate that all of them do, even before they are placed on the loom.
Moreover, even the scenario you are imagining could still simply be fate manip. Biological twins occur when a single existing ovum splits into two. Fating that natural process to occur with something like probability manip or fate manip would still sufficiently explain the events you're theorizing, without the need for a new unproven ability.
No one has taken the stance that it needs to be a 1:1 reflection of Greek myths. The issue is with taking the stance (with absolutely no evidence in favor) that the best explanation for a ruler losing his legs is bio manip instead of happening during his lifetime. Or that the Fates must use their grand bio manip abilities to dictate what kind of offspring are possible.
We are five pages in to discuss a phantom ability that appears nowhere in the story, because of events that are explained by their most famous power. This isn't about deviation from Greek myth, it's about making an argument out of thin air just so that these characters don't lose a minor ability. It is a giant waste of time and energy.
A small correction, the Sisters of Fate in the novel can work on fates of individuals independent of each other, to the point that it's a conflict point for the majority of the time we're in their perspective. They can also simply weave effects into said threads like disease rather than induce them via other means.I would need to review the GoW lore - and particularly, looking at the novel for myself may be useful in this regard - to say for sure how the Moirai's alterations of fate work. However, off of what I already know, this seems tenuous.
The very reason there are three sisters of fate instead of one is because they collectively engage with three domains of fate - the past, present, and future. We know in particular the past is in their purview due to GoW 2's battle against Lakhesis and Atropos. Even if we say this individual is already born, I'm not convinced this means they aren't capable of changing the course of events of the past to alter their circumstances of their birth.
Let's say that some aspect of GoW lore rejects this specific possibility, which I recognise could be the case. I say this to be clear that the example is not the important part. The important part is that we don't know the mechanism by which this event occurred. We know that they use the threads to change fate, and that this change somehow resulted in someone who either was or was going to be a single person being twins instead. The passage doesn't have any indication to the idea that they directly transmogrified their body to do so, and if anything, it falls contrary to the consistent conception that they make changes indirectly via altering fates through the threads.
That's an excellent point. Think this through, now. If Clotho is personally responsible for weaving the threads for mortal lives, why would we interpret her doing this to create twins as Bio manip instead of her just... weaving threads for mortals like she normally does?Clotho weaves a thread of life for every mortal, God and Titan" is the first thing you hear upon entering the Loom Chamber
You should not debate something with no evidence, that has strong and direct evidence for a different interpretation that is both thematically consistent with the characters and explained by their most famous ability, just to cling onto an ability.The rest of that reply reads like I'm to just not debate something I view as wrong because it's a minor ability
They can also simply weave effects into said threads like disease rather than induce them via other means.
Because the thread was already woven, and it was split into two new beings, an effect that would reflect on said twins. It is far from the first time they've induced direct change in a being without it being circumstantial either, as they inflame Hades' awareness with a touch, and weave a "flavour of disease" into a thread.That's an excellent point. Think this through, now. If Clotho is personally responsible for weaving the threads for mortal lives, why would we interpret her doing this to create twins as Bio manip instead of her just... weaving threads for mortals like she normally does?
This argument is self defeating. Clothing weaves a thread for every mortal. The quote in question is clearly just describing that process.
You should not debate something with no evidence, that has strong and direct evidence for a different interpretation that is both thematically consistent with the characters and explained by their most famous ability, just to cling onto an ability.
No, they weren't already woven. The quote in question is literally about her doing the weaving.Because the thread was already woven, and it was split into two new beings, an effect that would reflect on said twins.
Of course. I'm not the reason that the quotes in question are not evidence, that just comes down to logic. However, pretending they are evidence and claiming it's just a matter of opinion is not productive or reasonable. Evidence is information that points us in a direction. Describing situations where an event is simply possible is not evidence for that event, if several others are also possible.Once again, you do not arbitrate what is or isn't valid evidence
Can I get a recap of the opposition's points? Rn I find myself agreeing with Grath but I wanna hear them laid down
- Clotho wove a violent end for a young king. And Atropos altered that fate to allow him to reach old age with a bright mind but no legs. The debate is whether this is due to her manipulating indirect events like war or willing them away.Can I get a recap of the opposition's points? Rn I find myself agreeing with Grath but I wanna hear them laid down
More often than not, them referring to "violent fate" almost always refers to them ending a mortal's life by snipping their threads or stroking them.I'll note:
Ruler: Atropos never changes her mind, and it was not a violent "end" she had planned, but a violent fate. She describes this as war, which is very obviously where he loses his legs.
"Or as a mortal’s lover,” Lahkesis said, smirking. “Lest you forget some of my more memorable couplings and their offspring. - GoW2 Novel Chapter 8Improbable lovers: No evidence suggests they manipulate who can and cannot produce offspring. Supernatural offspring are commonplace in the lore and nothing says the Fates are responsible for it.
Yeah.Quick question, do we know if threads of fate show up once a person is born or can they show up before they're born (If this was answered already my bad but this thing is 5 pages already and I just skimmed it)
If you have further queries, you can ask Planck regarding this."Clotho weaves a thread of life for every mortal, God and Titan" is the first thing you hear upon entering the Loom Chamber. This is just basic information about how the Sisters of Fate operate. "The threads span all life and time" is another thing you hear about the Sisters from Kratos himself. This is all in-game dialogue.