The Great Odyssean Quest to Downgrade God of War ⌈Part 4⌋

[Vietthai96]

Your acting as if those are abilities are separate. They are not, Casualty manipulation is simply a sub-type to fate manipulation.

I get no horse on this, but i feel like i need to address this, which is no, it isn't, causality manip isn't sub-type of fate manip, they can achieves similar effects but the mechanism isn't the same, fate manip directly change fate and outcome of events, causality manip change the cause which indirectly cause change to the outcome of events. Sure there are some verses that have special fate manip that encompass cause and effect which in turn could even includes causality manip in it, but by default causality manip isn't sub-type of fate manip

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

And Casualty can be a mechanism under fate manipulation. They are not contradictory.

not according to the pages themselves.

And they are not identical, fate manipulation can be done by probability just as well. It's just that they(Casualty and Probability) are types of the ability.

I'm gonna stop arguing this point, but you seem to think the "types" section on the fate manipulate page is indicative of things fate manipulation can do inherently, and thus those abilities must be indexed regardless of whether or not those abilities are showcased directly. In that case, I would like to direct your attention to the reality warping page:

Of course, reality warping does not inherently manipulate time, concepts, or the narrative. We do not give all reality warpers magic, creation, and information manipulation by default. Why, then, should fate manipulation be treated differently? Why are its associated sub-powers something the Sisters of Fate should have innately, and not through demonstrating feats befitting those abilities?

this is why I only drink coke

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Causing something to happen isn't causality manip.

The way you're describing this makes it sound as though you think that actions which result in outcomes through cause and effect is indicative of causality manip. But that is simply how actions work.

Fating something to happen doesn't require causality manip and nothing in these scans suggests that this is the mechanism for it.

I know and that's true.

But choosing the effects from the action itself is what I'm arguing here.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

I get no horse on this, but i feel like i need to address this, which is no, it isn't, causality manip isn't sub-type of fate manip, they can achieves similar effects but the mechanism isn't the same, fate manip directly change fate and outcome of events, causality manip change the cause which indirectly cause change to the outcome of events. Sure there are some verses that have special fate manip that encompass cause and effect which in turn could even includes causality manip in it, but by default causality manip isn't sub-type of fate manip

Causality can be done by manipulating the cause, sure.

But it's also done by changing the effects the action caused.

And there's no mention of indirect and direct manipulation being the differing factor.

I'm gonna stop arguing this point, but you seem to think the "types" section on the fate manipulate page is indicative of things fate manipulation can do inherently, and thus those abilities must be indexed regardless of whether or not those abilities are showcased directly. In that case, I would like to direct your attention to the reality warping page:

Of course, reality warping does not inherently manipulate time, concepts, or the narrative. We do not give all reality warpers magic, creation, and information manipulation by default. Why, then, should fate manipulation be treated differently? Why are its associated sub-powers something the Sisters of Fate should have innately, and not through demonstrating feats befitting those abilities?

I do not think that.

What I'm trying to say is that the Fate's fate manipulation has Casualty as a mechanism under it.

Think about a character who has Creation by manipulating reality, having reality Warping wouldn't contradict having Creation.

The Sisters manipulating fate and manipulating Casualty as a mechanism under it wouldn't be a contradiction either.

 

[Armorchompy]

Hermes can escort souls to the Underworld. He doesn't destroy them, control them, or otherwise interact with them in a manner that could be described as "manipulation"; He merely guides them to a location.

The Sisters of Fate can send souls to the Underworld. By killing people. That’s what happens when people die (an event which is orchestrated by the Fates), they go to the Underworld. This isn’t BFR at all, it’s just how the afterlife works.

Yeah unless there's further context this is not any kinda hax (well ig NPI and death hax respectively)

The Spear of Destiny can turn people purple and make them explode. For starters, making a thing purple isn’t transmutation; It’s not turning their flesh to crystal, it’s not shooting a beam that turns enemies into candy, it just… makes them purple. Explosions also don’t negate durability by default, they can be tanked with sufficient durability just fine. Like, a not insubstantial number of durability feats on the site are from surviving explosions. This would also necessitate the removal of resistance to these abilities on the appropriate profiles.

Is there any lore about this? Because it definitely feels like there'd be some noteworthy effect going on here, weird to just turn people purple otherwise. As for making people explode, I would disagree that that's not duraneg, obviously explosions themselves aren't but if you're being used as fuel for the explosion and the explosion happens then you definitely were exploded, regardless of whether you'd tank the blast itself.

[yapping]

All the rest makes sense too (with the note that I'm not really sure what's going on in the NPI scan)- I'm not gonna lie there's a lot of overlap between fate and causality in my mind but like, eh, sure, I'm not convinced by the arguments against the removal.

 

[Robo432343]

resistance to transmutation here maybe?
the trial gates make ppl turn into monsters

 

[Armorchompy]

Uh, taking it at face value yeah, if he touches the thing and they don't do that to him (and they're indiscriminate with their transformation) I'd say yeah

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

resistance to transmutation here maybe?
the trial gates make ppl turn into monsters

Kratos already has resistance to transmutation from this, I believe.

All the rest makes sense too (with the note that I'm not really sure what's going on in the NPI scan)- I'm not gonna lie there's a lot of overlap between fate and causality in my mind but like, eh, sure, I'm not convinced by the arguments against the removal.

The context for the NPI scan is that Kratos gains the power of hope and proceeds to brutalize Zeus. You can also opt to stand there and do nothing, in which case Zeus tries to kill you but all of his attack's just bounce off of Kratos because he's effectively invulnerable in this state. (I'd provide scans but my internet is kinda ******** itself rn)

Is there any lore about this? Because it definitely feels like there'd be some noteworthy effect going on here, weird to just turn people purple otherwise. As for making people explode, I would disagree that that's not duraneg, obviously explosions themselves aren't but if you're being used as fuel for the explosion and the explosion happens then you definitely were exploded, regardless of whether you'd tank the blast itself.

As far as I can tell, there's no further context. I think the whole "turn enemies purple" thing is meant to just serve as a visual indicator of which enemies are about to explode. Also, the explosion thing is weird because it doesn't one-shot enemies, ignore any sort of defensive stat, or do anything indicative of durability negation (the same attack is used later in the video and a fodder enemy is able to get up afterwards and keep fighting); I think it's as simple as an explosion happening on top of an enemy and damaging them/anyone nearby.

 

[Armorchompy]

The context for the NPI scan is that Kratos gains the power of hope and proceeds to brutalize Zeus. You can also opt to stand there and do nothing, in which case Zeus tries to kill you but all of his attack's just bounce off of Kratos because he's effectively invulnerable in this state. (I'd provide scans but my internet is kinda ******** itself rn)

As far as I can tell, there's no further context. I think the whole "turn enemies purple" thing is meant to just serve as a visual indicator of which enemies are about to explode. Also, the explosion thing is weird because it doesn't one-shot enemies, ignore any sort of defensive stat, or do anything indicative of durability negation (the same attack is used later in the video and a fodder enemy is able to get up afterwards and keep fighting); I think it's as simple as an explosion happening on top of an enemy and damaging them/anyone nearby.

I guess that makes sense then

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Swag. That's 3 votes in favor of the OP.

Also, no way in hell this forum censors the word sh1tting.

 

[Eseseso]

Also, no way in hell this forum censors the word sh1tting.

Gotta pander to the sponsors somehow.

Why do you think the pages went from 100 posts to 40 posts even though that made the clutter so much worse?

 

[Catzlaflame]

OP looks fine barring one thing.

Transmutation & Durability Negation [Spear of Destiny]

The Spear of Destiny can turn people purple and make them explode........... Explosions also don’t negate durability by default, they can be tanked with sufficient durability just fine. Like, a not insubstantial number of durability feats on the site are from surviving explosions. This would also necessitate the removal of resistance to these abilities on the appropriate profiles.

This is mostly a semantics thing, but in the context of "make them explode" it seems like the actual word that was inteded to be used was implode since, looking at the scene closely, it seems like the people themselves are the sources of the explosion, rather than an attack causing a consequential explosion on the character. In which case, it would be Durability Negation. So I disagree with that removal.

Also, no way in hell this forum censors the word sh1tting.

Tbf, if we don't, we get no Ad money :3

 

[Deagonx]

But choosing the effects from the action itself is what I'm arguing here.

There isn't evidence that the Fates are capable of changing what effect a cause has. All we know is that they pluck the strings. We are never told that the mechanism for manipulating events is due to causality manip or probability manip.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

There isn't evidence that the Fates are capable of changing what effect a cause has. All we know is that they pluck the strings. We are never told that the mechanism for manipulating events is due to causality manip or probability manip.

But there is.

They decreed that a momentary lapse of etiquette would lead to War.
Cause: momentary lapse of etiquette
Effect: War

They're tampering with the threads can cause someone to wake up or be crippled.
Cause: tampering with the threads
Effect: crippling or waking someone up.
And a small reminder that they chose what effect happens.

They can deny causes and effects they don't like with their own through alterations.

 

[Deagonx]

They decreed that a momentary lapse of etiquette would lead to War.
Cause: momentary lapse of etiquette
Effect: War

This is just a chain reaction, not causality manip. That'd be like saying causality manip is the reason that the death of Franz Ferdinand sparked World War 1.

They're tampering with the threads can cause someone to wake up or be crippled.
Cause: tampering with the threads
Effect: crippling or waking someone up.

It's true that the threads have effects on people, but this isn't evidence of causality manip. We aren't told that the mechanism is through directly changing the "effect" of plucking the string. The string clearly has a magical connection to the person, but this isn't causality manip any more than a voodoo doll is because you can stab the doll and the real person feels pain.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

That'd be like saying causality manip is the reason that the death of Franz Ferdinand sparked World War 1.

lmao

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

This is just a chain reaction, not causality manip. That'd be like saying causality manip is the reason that the death of Franz Ferdinand sparked World War 1.

Sure, I can see that being possible.

It's true that the threads have effects on people, but this isn't evidence of causality manip. We aren't told that the mechanism is through directly changing the "effect" of plucking the string. The string clearly has a magical connection to the person, but this isn't causality manip any more than a voodoo doll is because you can stab the doll and the real person feels pain.

I find this to be more speculative and problematic in all honesty.

Not only is there no evidence for it, but what would be the reason that they can carry varied effects depending on what the Sisters decide? The most logical interpretation would be them changing the effects.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Not only is there no evidence for it, but what would be the reason that they can carry varied effects depending on what the Sisters decide? The most logical interpretation would be them changing the effects.

If i may, from my interpetation, it is not the Sister of fates, changing the cause or the effects of what will happen, but Instead the strings all have a "possible" future(fate) occur for example, let's say one future where a Volcano Erupts, another one that it doesn't happen. By chosen between the two choices a eruptions will either happen or won't happen. This is by no means anything other then fate manipulation, with the volcano ""actions"" being indirectly caused by them chosing a future.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

If i may, from my interpetation, it is not the Sister of fates, changing the cause or the effects of what will happen, but Instead the strings all have a "possible" future(fate) occur for example, let's say one future where a Volcano Erupts, another one that it doesn't happen. By chosen between the two choices a eruptions will either happen or won't happen. This is by no means anything other then fate manipulation, with the volcano ""actions"" being indirectly caused by them chosing a future.

That'd be Probability Manipulation mixed with fate.

Regardless, it's made clear that the Fates decide everything from moment to moment through expert manipulation of their threads, and certain threads can straight up become slack if they leave it for too long.

 

[Deagonx]

I find this to be more speculative and problematic in all honesty.

Not only is there no evidence for it, but what would be the reason that they can carry varied effects depending on what the Sisters decide? The most logical interpretation would be them changing the effects.

I don't think that's the most logical interpretation, personally. I am more inclined to think of it as being akin to voodoo in the sense of an object that is tethered to something else.

More importantly, this line of thinking makes the whole arrangement somewhat strange. If the Fates simply have the ability to arbitrarily decide that plucking a string can have any effect they want, the Loom seems pointless. Why make threads at all? Why measure them to specific lengths? After all. Cutting the threads by itself does nothing. It only has an effect because they use their dominion over causality to make it so. They could just clap their hands and change the effect of that to do the same thing.

Which beings us to another issue. Kratos still affects himself when he rips his own thread. The threads still have those effects even when it isn't the Fates touching them. We could imagine some mechanism through which the causality manip is directly imbued into the threads or something, but that's even more speculative and would only serve the purpose of retaining the ability.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

I don't think that's the most logical interpretation, personally. I am more inclined to think of it as being akin to voodoo in the sense of an object that is tethered to something else.

More importantly, this line of thinking makes the whole arrangement somewhat strange. If the Fates simply have the ability to arbitrarily decide that plucking a string can have any effect they want, the Loom seems pointless. Why make threads at all? Why measure them to specific lengths? After all. Cutting the threads by itself does nothing. It only has an effect because they use their dominion over causality to make it so. They could just clap their hands and change the effect of that to do the same thing.

You're misinterpreting my point.

The threads have the ability to decree any amount of effects for a cause, but to do so, the Fates need to expertly manipulate to chose the effect for the cause.

As Kratos said, "The threads of Fate span all life of time" it isn't the Sisters who have dominion over time, it's the threads.

Which beings us to another issue. Kratos still affects himself when he rips his own thread. The threads still have those effects even when it isn't the Fates touching them. We could imagine some mechanism through which the causality manip is directly imbued into the threads or something, but that's even more speculative and would only serve the purpose of retaining the ability.

Yeah, with a weapon made by their magic, Kratos needed the Spear of Destiny for that reason.

 

[Deagonx]

You're misinterpreting my point.

The threads have the ability to decree any amount of effects for a cause, but to do so, the Fates need to expertly manipulate to chose the effect for the cause.

As Kratos said, "The threads of Fate span all life of time" it isn't the Sisters who have dominion over time, it's the threads.

There isn't any evidence that the threads are imbued with causality manipulation. You are interpreting the threads as "decreeing any effects for a cause" but that's just a theory, we are never told that this is the mechanism for it.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

There isn't any evidence that the threads are imbued with causality manipulation. You are interpreting the threads as "decreeing any effects for a cause" but that's just a theory, we are never told that this is the mechanism for it.

We don't need it to be stated when we have showings for that interpretation.

 

[Deagonx]

We don't need it to be stated when we have showings for that interpretation.

Of course, but we don't. We have showings the threads being able to affect people, but nothing showing that this is a form of causality manipulation rather than just a magical tie between the two things.

 

[Robo432343]

if probability manip and causality manip gets removed for the sisters of fate, wouldn't Kratos' resistance to that also get removed?
im talking about this part on his profile

• Power of the Fates (The Sisters of Fate, who determine the destinies of the Gods and Titans, forge brand new life,[57] manipulate the outcome of events and wars, and decree when exactly a person will die,[58] initially notcing irregularities with the circumstances of Kratos' fate,[58] were ultimately unable to use their powers to actually force Kratos to lose, as seen when he overpowered and killed the the Dark Rider, Alrik[30] and Perseus against their decreed fate for Kratos, the latter action causing Kratos' Thread of Fate to become slack and unresponsive to all the Sisters' actions[31])

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

if probability manip and causality manip gets removed for the sisters of fate, wouldn't Kratos' resistance to that also get removed?

Yes, though nothing on his page would change since he simply has "resistance to the power of the fates", which links to the appropriate section on the magic explanation page.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh wait, I just noticed your edit. No, that part isn't getting removed quite yet.

 

[Georredannea15]

No low 1-C ratings, no infinite speed, no type 1 concept hax, pretty much everything that makes GoW unbearably "OP" these days is getting nuked. It's kind of hard to overstate just how much this verse has gotten away with in some areas.

Fuji, to be frank, I think you even don't knows how the GoW's Low 1-C rating came about. Actually, I don't want to discuss a rating that was extended for 6 months and accepted after the approval of almost 10 admins including DT. CM downgrade thread already nuked

Anyway... As for Thread, I agree with everything except probability manipulation and causality manipulation. Because basically fate hax can include them too but I don't know what the majority say about it

 

[Georredannea15]

That'd be like saying causality manip is the reason that the death of Franz Ferdinand sparked World War 1.

But this event is itself a causal loop. Basically, if you can initiate and control it with your abilities, it's basically causality manipulation.

 

[Hasty12345]

Fuji, to be frank, I think you even don't knows how the GoW's Low 1-C rating came about. Actually, I don't want to discuss a rating that was extended for 6 months and accepted after the approval of almost 10 admins including DT. CM downgrade thread already nuked

and it would only take 3 thread mods to remove it.

 

[Georredannea15]

and it would only take 3 thread mods to remove it.

Yeah... Tier 1 is nothing like that, man. It's not hax or something like that. It will take a long time and wait for admins who are knowledgeable about tier 1 standards.

 

[Hasty12345]

Yeah... Tier 1 is nothing like that, man. It's not hax or something like that. It will take a long time and wait for admins who are knowledgeable about tier 1 standards.

No it isn't, don't think because 10 mods agreed it won't take more than 3 to downgrade.

 

[Robo432343]

why tf are we talking about tier 1 in a hax thread
can we not

 

[Georredannea15]

No it isn't, don't think because 10 mods agreed it won't take more than 3 to downgrade.

Tier 1 threads are not like hax threads are usually not open to much interpretation, they are either right or wrong, but the staffs who decide are basically knowledgeable staffs. That's why any tier 1 thread on the wiki is not accepted or rejected with just only 3 thread mod votes (More staff votes are usually requested) Anyway, the wiki's approach is clear for this. Let's not go off the rails

 

[Firestorm808]

OP sounds about right.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Deagonx, Maverick_Zero_X, Armorchompy, and Firestorm808 have all agreed, so this can be applied once grace passes in a few hours.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Won't be able to get to it until later tonight, unfortunately.

 

[Deagonx]

No rush. I'll close this now.