Minor God of War Removal

[Damage3245]

I agree with removing it. Orchestrating events so that a character loses their legs isn't biological manipulation.

 

[Planck69]

That's what's baffling to me. I'd rather we get the king stuff sorted first but someone is well in line to bring up what they see as other instances.

 

[Deagonx]

Proposing -- without any evidence at all -- that because the fates can dictate that two people end up as lovers, they must therefore also be personally responsible for the biological possibility of procreation between humans and animals or humans and cloud nymphs, is not worth serious consideration if actual scans demonstrating it are not produced.

The young ruler scan is the focal point of this discussion. The evidence suggests that Atropos orchestrated the loss of the ruler's legs with war, it is set up a few paragraphs earlier. There's no evidence at all he lost his legs due to her manual interference. The fact that such a thing is technically possible isn't enough to keep the ability, so it should be removed. It's that simple.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

The obvious and straightforward interpretation is that he loses his legs in the war. Shunting in an awkward and context-ignorant manual removal of someone's legs to prevent this downgrade is not a good use of anyone's time. We shouldn't be abusing ambiguity in literary writing styles to give characters abilities they don't have.

I don't think anyone is awkwardly shunting in a context ignorant manual removal. It's simply a possible interpretation of an event that we didn't visually see, based on their thoughts. Regardless of how you feel, I doubt anyone here is ignoring context just because they want to keep a random ability like biological manipulation for some characters.

 

[Deagonx]

I don't think anyone is awkwardly shunting in a context ignorant manual removal. It's simply a possible interpretation of an event that we didn't visually see, based on their thoughts. Regardless of how you feel, I doubt anyone here is ignoring context just because they want to keep a random ability like biological manipulation for some characters.

I disagree strongly, but I won't prolong an argument on the matter.

In any case, have you reached a decision? Do you believe the "young ruler" scan provides a sufficient justification to say the Fates have "biological manipulation?"

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

I will say that the visions Kratos had could very much just be what the Fates would've had in store had they let him remain a god.

We do see what happens in the novel when they're distracted. The world spins away into chaos and disorder without them maintaining order.

I'm pretty sure the sisters usually decide things in the spot or in the near future, I'd find it weird that they just decided to change the entirety of the future to basically our world just to mess with Kratos.

 

[Planck69]

I'm pretty sure the sisters usually decide things in the spot or in the near future, I'd find it weird that they just decided to change the entirety of the future to basically our world just to mess with Kratos.

They absolutely would do that, they're very petty. But this is neither here nor there. Let's just focus on the biological manipulation scans.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Proposing -- without any evidence at all -- that because the fates can dictate that two people end up as lovers, they must therefore also be personally responsible for the biological possibility of procreation between humans and animals or humans and cloud nymphs, is not worth serious consideration if actual scans demonstrating it are not produced.

The young ruler scan is the focal point of this discussion. The evidence suggests that Atropos orchestrated the loss of the ruler's legs with war, it is set up a few paragraphs earlier. There's no evidence at all he lost his legs due to her manual interference. The fact that such a thing is technically possible isn't enough to keep the ability, so it should be removed. It's that simple.

You're entitled to think what you will about the ability in question, but it doesn't mean you should go around dismissing counterarguments as "not worth considering" in such a manner. The fact is that others see it differently, with what they consider evidence, and this attitude toward such a sentiment is unwarranted.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I disagree strongly, but I won't prolong an argument on the matter.

I'm half tempted to keep going but given I'd rather not start something, I'll drop it.

In any case, have you reached a decision? Do you believe the "young ruler" scan provides a sufficient justification to say the Fates have "biological manipulation?"

I think biological manipulation is possible, but given the scan and the lack of a visual, I'm more inclined to agree with your stance regarding him losing his legs in a battle by an act in said war. Usually characters manipulation of fate causes actions that result in said fate playing out, unless specified otherwise (like my Belioune example).

I'll let the others give their thoughts and we'll see what the end result is, if new evidence comes up and things change, just message me if and I'll try and respond when able.

 

[Nierre]

Deagon and the OP makes sense in my opinion

 

[Quibster]

I agree with Deagon on this

 

[Deagonx]

You're entitled to think what you will about the ability in question, but it doesn't mean you should go around dismissing counterarguments as "not worth considering" in such a manner. The fact is that others see it differently, with what they consider evidence, and this attitude toward such a sentiment is unwarranted.

I can and will be dismissive towards theories with no evidence. You should be too, this is not merely a sharing of opinions amongst friends, this is a debate forum where we are deciding on official changes to the wiki.

I think biological manipulation is possible, but given the scan and the lack of a visual, I'm more inclined to agree with your stance regarding him losing his legs in a battle by an act in said war. Usually characters manipulation of fate causes actions that result in said fate playing out, unless specified otherwise (like my Belioune example).

I'll let the others give their thoughts and we'll see what the end result is, if new evidence comes up and things change, just message me if and I'll try and respond when able.

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter. I want to avoid voting tally controversy if we can: Do you want this to be counted as an "agree" vote?

 

[KLOL506]

I think biological manipulation is possible, but given the scan and the lack of a visual, I'm more inclined to agree with your stance regarding him losing his legs in a battle by an act in said war. Usually characters manipulation of fate causes actions that result in said fate playing out, unless specified otherwise (like my Belioune example).

We added more scans on the Bio Manip before this, namely the twins and the breeding between humans and clouds and animals.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I can and will be dismissive towards theories with no evidence. You should be too, this is not merely a sharing of opinions amongst friends, this is a debate forum where we are deciding on official changes to the wiki.

Your opinion of there being no evidence is noted, but that's no reason to try and justify the attitude you're taking. I don't care if it's a debate forum. It doesn't warrant the attitude you're taking, and I don't think I'm asking too much.

 

[BlastX]

I disagree with the OP

 

[Deagonx]

Your opinion of there being no evidence is noted, but that's no reason to try and justify the attitude you're taking. I don't care if it's a debate forum. It doesn't warrant the attitude you're taking, and I don't think I'm asking too much.

I clearly disagree. In any case this is not the place for such a discussion. If you want to continue discussing this you are free to bring it up on my wall. I have removed the comments on this subject from other users that came after this.

We added more scans on the Bio Manip before this, namely the twins and the breeding between humans and clouds and animals.

@LordGriffin1000 In case you didn't see the discussion about these points, these are my counterarguments.

Twins: The sentence in question is entirely about the weaving of threads, the twins refers to splitting a thread and separating them onto different spools. It doesn't appear to be about creating biological twins, and even if that was the case, fate manipulation would still allow the Fates to dictate that twins are born, without biological manip

Human/animal/cloud procreation: That's just how the world of greek mythology works. There's no evidence whatsoever that the fates are the reason humans and animals can create offspring in Greek myths.

 

[KLOL506]

Our arguments for them is as follows

Twins: Each thread is a direct manifestation of people's lives. Thus it referring to biological twins would be the most logical conclusion

Human/animal/cloud procreation: GoW and Greek Myths aren't 1:1. Plus the novels explicitly state this improbable breeding is solely because they made it happen.

 

[Deagonx]

Plus the novels explicitly state this improbable breeding is solely because they made it happen.

Only one scan was provided about this, and nowhere did it refer to "improbable breeding" or that they are the ones that made it happen. What scan are you referring to that says this?

 

[KLOL506]

Only one scan was provided for this, and nowhere did it refer to "improbable breeding." What scan are you referring to that says this?

Two scans actually. The Cloud one and the Chapter 8 one where she talks about her memorable offspring involving mortals and animals. This one.

 

[Deagonx]

Two scans actually. The Cloud one and the Chapter 8 one where she talks about her memorable offspring involving mortals and animals.

The phrase "Lest you forget some of my more memorable couplings and their offspring" does not establish that they are the reason human and animals can breed.

As far as the "cloud" I'm not really sure why you keep referring to Nephele as a cloud. She is a cloud nymph. That'd like saying procreation with a water nymph is "having a baby with water." In any case, its very normal in Greek myths for nymphs to mate with humans/demigods like Ixion.

 

[CloverDragon03]

This scan is what convinces me the most that Biological Manipulation should remain, for the record, even if potentially under a different justification. The Sisters of Fate are explicitly "breeding improbable lovers," and I don't see how this would mean just making them fall in love or something of the sort. No, to me this seems like they're making it so they're able to reproduce despite normally being biologically being incompatible with one another. And this makes sense, given that these two beings would naturally be incompatible.

 

[KLOL506]

The phrase "Lest you forget some of my more memorable couplings and their offspring" does not establish that they are the reason human and animals can breed.

"My more memorable couplings and their offspring"

I rest my case.

As far as the "cloud" I'm not really sure why you keep referring to Nephele as a cloud. She is a cloud nymph. That'd like saying procreation with a water nymph is "having a baby with water." In any case, its very normal in Greek myths for nymphs to mate with humans/demigods like Ixion.

Again, GoW isn't 1:1 with Greek Mythology. IDK why you keep using the "It's normal in Greek Myths for X and Y to happen" when it's got no relevance here to begin with. That and the Sisters explicitly state it to be "improbable" so the whole "Greek Myth does this all the time" really doesn't work here as well as you think it does.

 

[KLOL506]

This scan is what convinces me the most that Biological Manipulation should remain, for the record, even if potentially under a different justification. The Sisters of Fate are explicitly "breeding improbable lovers," and I don't see how this would mean just making them fall in love or something of the sort. No, to me this seems like they're making it so they're able to reproduce despite normally being biologically being incompatible with one another. And this makes sense, given that these two beings would naturally be incompatible.

Also, this. The Sisters heavily imply that it shouldn't be possible for them to birth children but it happens anyway because they decreed it. So even if the Cloud Nymph argument were true, it still doesn't change the fact that the Sisters deemed such a relationship incompatible for siring children by default, so they made it comaptible.

 

[Planck69]

God of War has to prove events that happened in myth happen within it, unless its today then Santa Monica's developers are the reincarnations of Hesiod and Homer.

Edit: David Jaffe is Ovid of course.

 

[Deagonx]

Again, GoW isn't 1:1 with Greek Mythology. IDK why you keep using the "It's normal in Greek Myths for X and Y to happen" when it's got no relevance here to begin with.

It doesn't need to be 1:1 to point out that having offspring with a nymph is very common and that it is disingenuous to describe nymphs like "having kids with a cloud." Depictions of Nephele in Greece show her as having a human appearance. The word nymph literally refers to a beautiful woman. Men and gods alike had relationships with them in tons of Greek stories.

Also, this. The Sisters heavily imply that it shouldn't be possible for them to birth children but it happens because they decreed it.

They do not "heavily imply" that. In fact, it isn't in the text at all.

This is fairly blatant grasping at straws. The young ruler scan has been debunked and now you're trying to pivot to the entirely unsupported claim that the Fates are personally responsible for making cross-species breeding possible or breeding between gods and humans possible. It's an incredible reach.

it still doesn't change the fact that the Sisters deemed such a relationship incompatible for siring children by default, so they made it comaptible.

A misrepresentation of the source material this egregious is offputting. The sisters never said it was incompatible for siring children, nor did they say that they made it compatible. At this point you've shifted to blatant falsehoods.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@LordGriffin1000 In case you didn't see the discussion about these points, these are my counterarguments.

Twins: The sentence in question is entirely about the weaving of threads, the twins refers to splitting a thread and separating them onto different spools. It doesn't appear to be about creating biological twins, and even if that was the case, fate manipulation would still allow the Fates to dictate that twins are born, without biological manip

It seemed like they were making twins to me but I'll look over it again

Human/animal/cloud procreation: That's just how the world of greek mythology works. There's no evidence whatsoever that the fates are the reason humans and animals can create offspring in Greek myths.

As far as the "cloud" I'm not really sure why you keep referring to Nephele as a cloud. She is a cloud nymph. That'd like saying procreation with a water nymph is "having a baby with water." In any case, its very normal in Greek myths for nymphs to mate with humans/demigods like Ixion.

I disagree with the logic that "it happens in myth Greek" because we know God of War isn't always the same.

 

[Deagonx]

I disagree with the logic that "it happens in myth Greek" because we know God of War isn't always the same.

GOW is based on Greek Myth, and while it isn't a perfect copy we should be able to recognize things like nymphs -- which are archetypally beautiful women -- regularly have relationships and children with gods, demigods, and men. It's definitional:
a mythological spirit of nature imagined as a beautiful maiden inhabiting rivers, woods, or other locations.

It seemed like they were making twins to me but I'll look over it again

Every other part of the sentence is about threads, the notion of twin children being the meaning seems out of place. However, even if it is, fate manipulation can accomplish this by itself. Biological manip isn't needed in any case.

 

[Eseseso]

GOW is based on Greek Myth, and while it isn't a perfect copy we should be able to recognize things like nymphs -- which are archetypally beautiful women -- regularly have relationships and children with gods, demigods, and men. It's definitional:
a mythological spirit of nature imagined as a beautiful maiden inhabiting rivers, woods, or other locations.


Every other part of the sentence is about threads, the notion of twin children being the meaning seems out of place. However, even if it is, fate manipulation can accomplish this by itself. Biological manip isn't needed in any case.

Duly noted.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

It's just as disingenuous to use Greek myths as "evidence" for arguments when it's completely non canon to Gow. We had this with multiple verses already, We shouldn't base Powers and Abilities on religion without a clear connection about them being canonical.

 

[Deagonx]

You're free to take that stance. No evidence at all has been provided to suggest the Fates made it possible for them to have children when they otherwise couldn't, so it is a moot point either way.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Is there really something wrong with using a clear inspiration to contextualize something..? It's not like all aspects of the mythology are canon but the mythology can be used to give context to pretty damn obvious elements that are being borrowed.

 

[KLOL506]

Is there really something wrong with using a clear inspiration to contextualize something..? It's not like all aspects of the mythology are canon but the mythology can be used to give context to pretty damn obvious elements that are being borrowed.

Only when the game corroborates it to its fullest extent. Mere inspirations don't get you anywhere.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well with the impasse we're at right now, I don't think continued discussion will get us anywhere. We might just need to get more staff to weigh in and go from there.

 

[KLOL506]

Well with the impasse we're at right now, I don't think continued discussion will get us anywhere. We might just need to get more staff to weigh in and go from there.

Pretty much.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Anyways there isn't really any proof that the Fates are responsible for reproduction between nymphs humans gods and whatever as it's basically conjecture and I also agree that the Fates are just fating someone to lose their legs in an event (predestining an event to happen is indeed what fate hax does) rather than some unexplained bio hax.. I pretty much agree with the thread and Deagon.

 

[Deagonx]

Only when the game corroborates it to its fullest extent. Mere inspirations don't get you anywhere.

And yet the game has not corroborated the notion that the Fates dictate what types of procreation are biologically possible. In fact, it hasn't said anything to this effect at all. But somehow the fact that the origin of GOWs worldbuilding treats this as common is more easily dismissed than this unevidenced theory?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It's not like it was ever implied that sex with cloud nymphs is typically impossible, either. As far as I'm aware, there's nothing to suggest that they'd have some sort of built in elemental intangibility or whatever, and they'd more likely be humanoid unless proven otherwise (seeing as 1. sex with them is possible, and 2. that is typically how they're depicted in Greek myth).

 

[LordGriffin1000]

GOW is based on Greek Myth, and while it isn't a perfect copy we should be able to recognize things like nymphs -- which are archetypally beautiful women -- regularly have relationships and children with gods, demigods, and men. It's definitional:
a mythological spirit of nature imagined as a beautiful maiden inhabiting rivers, woods, or other locations.


Every other part of the sentence is about threads, the notion of twin children being the meaning seems out of place. However, even if it is, fate manipulation can accomplish this by itself. Biological manip isn't needed in any case.

Disagree with you here.

 

[Deagonx]

Disagree with you here.

On what point, that fate manipulation could not lead two people to having twins without needing a special biological manip power? Or that the phrase "birth twins" and then separating them onto different spools is probably talking about threads and not human children?

 

[Planck69]

It's not like it was ever implied that sex with cloud nymphs is typically impossible, either. As far as I'm aware, there's nothing to suggest that they'd have some sort of built in elemental intangibility or whatever, and they'd more likely be humanoid unless proven otherwise (seeing as 1. sex with them is possible, and 2. that is typically how they're depicted in Greek myth).

Nephele is specifically a cloud though. Not a personified spirit (in the sense of being like a woman tied to a cloud) but a cloud made in Hera's image.