Minor God of War Removal

[KLOL506]

Current tally-

Agree: Deagonx, Damage3245, LordGriffin1000, Mr._Bambu, DarkGrath,
Disagree: Planck69, Theglassman12, Emirp sumitpo, DarkDragonMedeus, Elizhaa, KLOL506, CloverDragon03 (all support replacing the scan in the OP)
Neutral:

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I have been asked to provide input here.

Importantly, I feel I should acknowledge this issue, since it was a clear point of confusion earlier in the discussion.

'Burden of proof' is not a difficult thing to discern - when you have a situation where multiple conclusions are possible, and you say "this conclusion is the correct one", you have the burden of proof to say why it is the correct one and the others are not. Most of the arguments for biological manipulation have been variations of taking quotes that ambiguously, potentially could be biological manipulation, or could have alternate, non-biological manipulation explanations, and assuming the former is the truth of the matter. The King could have lost his legs in many different ways - and in fact, the established context quite clearly implies he lost them in a war - and all we know for sure is that they changed his fate from him dying to him losing his legs in some manner. The birthing of 'improbable offspring' could also occur in many different ways, and the most that we know is that they can someway, somehow change fate to make such events happen. Taking these ambiguous circumstances, where it could have happened in some way that fits our standard or could have happened some way that wouldn't, and asserting that the mere possibility of the former is reason enough to apply it is never how we've built our profiles.

The only scan I think is really worthy of consideration in this regard is the 'twins' scan. I don't really agree with Deagon's reading that the 'twins' are the threads themselves and not the people represented by those threads. Considering that the threads are explicitly physical representations of individual people that can be manipulated to change the individual's fate, and that splitting one thread in half was called 'birth[ing] twins', I think it's quite clear the intended reading of the passage was 'this person who would have previously been a single person has become twins'. Independently of my issues with the refutations, though, this falls into a similar issue with the previous issues - what's the mechanic behind 'birth[ing] twins' here? Did they literally, directly change the mother's womb so that she would give birth to two people instead of one? Or did they, for example, change the events surrounding the birth so that she would give birth to twins? We don't know. The scan doesn't say how it works. I recognise the distinct possibility here, but I wouldn't sign off on this as a feat of biological manipulation off of the scan in isolation.

So, I have to agree with the removal of the ability. I would not be surprised if the Sisters of Fate have more explicit feats of biological manipulation, but I find all of these suggestions tenuous.

Thank you for the evaluation. I will expand upon the twins point a bit, though; The Sisters of Fate are able to create new life, being described as the genesis of all. I would attribute the creation of twins to that subset of their powers, rather than biological manipulation.

...Actually, that's what I would've said, under different circumstances. While looking for the scans in regards to that point, I went to check the life manipulation justifications for the sisters, and found a very familiar scan being used to describe their creation of life. So GoW supporters knew the feat was already classified as life manipulation, but also decided it was biological manipulation instead the moment it'd prevent a downgrade. Jesus Christ.

 

[RH0904]

scan link doesn't work.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Fixed. God I hate wikia links.

 

[RH0904]

why, of all the things you could have picked, chose bio manip?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

why, of all the things you could have picked, chose bio manip?

Wanted to do a test run of downgrading GoW, and this seemed like the most straightforward and uncontroversial removal.

...Which means this thread is a terrible omen of things yet to come. Lucky me.

 

[Hellbeast]

Pretty much this, also in those cases of the Sisters causing accidents, illnesses or wars, it's pretty explicitly specified in the novel what the Sisters do (Like, if they wanna bestow illnesses, they mention it, if they wanna sink a continent, they sink it, if they wanna cause dissent with the Threads, it happens without any other external factor being involved). Here tho, no such thing is expressed.

Eh I don’t think it going unsaid is evidence it’s not the mechanism; especially considering you’ve mentioned them using direct means before.

Plus the scan reads to me that he lost his legs in his war

 

[Hellbeast]

She's talking about how they breed improbable lovers together, like a demigod and a living cloud having offspring.

That same chapter, she turns a single conception into twins.

Yeah this definitely seems like the better example to use

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Agreed with Grath's take 100% here. If you can warp probabilities and fate into specific circumstances, you can accomplish a lot of feats that other powers could achieve. Twins being born in a womb is mostly a matter of simple luck. If they can turn that 1 in 250 chance into a 100% chance then that's not biological manipulation, they're Gods of fate after all.

 

[KLOL506]

Current tally-

Agree: Deagonx, Damage3245, LordGriffin1000, Mr._Bambu, DarkGrath, CrimsonStarFallen,
Disagree: Planck69, Theglassman12, Emirp sumitpo, DarkDragonMedeus, Elizhaa, KLOL506, CloverDragon03 (all support replacing the scan in the OP)
Neutral:

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Y'all really spent 5 pages arguing about biological manip in a verse where people can pull your soul out from your rectum like plucking an apple from a tree.

Gonna vote in agreement of removing biological manip removed based on Grath's reasons because they're logically sound.

Regardless of outcome tho I think this is a huge waste of time and the energy spent here would be better used elsewhere.

 

[KLOL506]

Current tally-

Agree: Deagonx, Damage3245, LordGriffin1000, Mr._Bambu, DarkGrath, CrimsonStarFallen, Sir_Ovens,
Disagree: Planck69, Theglassman12, Emirp sumitpo, DarkDragonMedeus, Elizhaa, KLOL506, CloverDragon03 (all support replacing the scan in the OP)
Neutral:

 

[Vietthai96]

Agreed with Grath's take 100% here. If you can warp probabilities and fate into specific circumstances, you can accomplish a lot of feats that other powers could achieve. Twins being born in a womb is mostly a matter of simple luck. If they can turn that 1 in 250 chance into a 100% chance then that's not biological manipulation, they're Gods of fate after all.

I'm gonna disagree with this logic, just because you using one power to achieve another effects, doesn't make the effect less qualify. Using Conceptual Manipulation to erase someone from existence, doesn't make it not qualify as Existence Erasure, as the power still perform existence erasure feat, no reason to disqualify it. If GoW Sister of Fate using Fate/Probability hax to directly manipulate someone biology, doesn't make it not qualify as Bio hax since it still achieve the effect of Bio hax. This logic of your doesn't sound, because we could just delete most power like Conceptual hax, Law hax, Fate hax, etc...... cause they are just extension, variation of Reality Warping

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

Wanted to do a test run of downgrading GoW, and this seemed like the most straightforward and uncontroversial removal.

...Which means this thread is a terrible omen of things yet to come. Lucky me.

 

[Planck69]

Regarding that twin issue, the thread already existing before hand means that the original person was already conceived, so it wouldn't make sense for it to be circumstantial changes that made her conceive twins instead.

It wouldn't be a matter of probability to me since its not making a woman who'd have given had a lone child be pregnant with twins instead, but rather turning said child (whose life thread means he already exists) into two new beings with their own threads.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with the removal of the ability.

 

[KLOL506]

Current tally-

Agree: Deagonx, Damage3245, LordGriffin1000, Mr._Bambu, DarkGrath, CrimsonStarFallen, Sir_Ovens, Maverick_Zero_X,
Disagree: Planck69, Theglassman12, Emirp sumitpo, DarkDragonMedeus, Elizhaa, KLOL506, CloverDragon03 (all support replacing the scan in the OP)
Neutral:

 

[Deagonx]

If GoW Sister of Fate using Fate/Probability hax to directly manipulate someone biology, doesn't make it not qualify as Bio hax since it still achieve the effect of Bio hax

That's not what he's suggesting. The issue is that there's no evidence bio manip occurred and the events are already sufficiently explained by fate manip.

Causing a guy to lose his legs in war is not Bio manip. Chancing someone to have twins isn't Bio manip unless it involves affecting their biology and not simply probability.

Regarding that twin issue, the thread already existing before hand means that the original person was already conceived, so it wouldn't make sense for it to be circumstantial changes that made her conceive twins instead.

It wouldn't really make sense for it to be a matter of probability since its not making a woman who'd have given had a lone child be pregnant with twins instead, but rather turning said child (whose life thread means he already exists) into two new beings with their own threads.

Nothing says "the original person was already conceived" in the text. Literally no information is provided aside from textile metaphors and an out of place "births twins." So this doesn't really matter. You're extrapolating from information that isn't there.

 

[Planck69]

That's not what he's suggesting. The issue is that there's no evidence bio manip occurred and the events are already sufficient explained by fate manip.

Causing a guy to lose his legs in war is not Bio manip. Chancing someone to have twins isn't Bio manip unless it involves affecting their biology and not simply probability.


Nothing says "the original person was already conceived" in the text. Literally no information is provided aside from textile metaphors and an out of place "births twins." So this doesn't really matter. You're extrapolating from information that isn't there.

I'm talking about how the life threads act generally in the novel, not just in that specific scan. They correspond with every living being that exists so this would've made more sense to be altering circumstances surrounding their birth if the threads were made separately beforehand.

Also, "textile metaphors"? The threads are actually spun into looms and spools, I have no idea what is meant by this. They can manifest threads at will and dismiss them but they're fully brought into existence when that happens.

Edit: Made post clearer.

 

[Vietthai96]

That's not what he's suggesting. The issue is that there's no evidence bio manip occurred and the events are already sufficient explained by fate manip.

I'm not really follow the thread cause somehow it lasted 5 pages, and probably gonna reach 6. But anyway what i want to refute is his, and to an extent @DarkGrath logic as a whole, because from his comment, they implied that way

 

[Deagonx]

I'm talking about how the life threads act generally in the novel, not just in that specific scan. They correspond with every living being that exists so this would've made more sense to be altering circumstances if the threads were made separately beforehand.

This is still quite a reach. We aren't given that kind of information about how new lives turn into threads or etc. By the point she splits the thread it hasn't been attached to a spool. The idea that the thread must have been an existing life (or pregnancy) that was biologically manipulated into two lives goes well beyond what we are actually told.

In any case, this is all deviates pretty egregiously from the Fates' role in the world and typical power set. This entire issue should've been resolved fairly quickly. There's no good direct evidence for Bio Manip, only certain gaps/vagueness where Bio Manip could be theorized, and the situations at hand can already be explained with their existing powers.

There's no reason to imagine characters famous for Fate Manip as having Bio Manip to justify things they could've done with their Fate Manip unless the evidence for it is very strong. In this case it isn't. I have no idea why this was controversial, but it shouldn't have been.

 

[Planck69]

This is still quite a reach. We aren't given that kind of information about how new lives turn into threads or etc. By the point she splits the thread it hasn't been attached to a spool. The idea that the thread must have been an existing life (or pregnancy) that was magically or biologically manipulated into two lives goes well beyond what we are actually told.

In any case, this is all deviates pretty egregiously from the Fates' role in the world and typical power set. This entire issue should've been resolved fairly quickly. There's no good direct evidence for bio manip, only certain gaps/vagueness where it could be theorized, and the situations at hand can already be explained with their existing powers.

It's demonstrated pretty clearly by the time Kratos reaches the Loom chamber and starts interacting with the threads (notably by him directly harming himself by touching his own thread). And by how the weaves directly correspond to human nations and groups.

The threads aren't just blank slates, they're stated to span all of life and allow them to manipulate said lives. And throughout the whole novel, not a single thread has existed without representing a being that already exists.

That second and third paragraph is to be blunt, a non-sequitir. This is a video game adaptation, that it isn't a 1:1 representation of their powers is pretty obvious. That you disagree with the addition is honestly whatever, this likely is getting removed but it is getting tiring to see responses that constantly seeming like it can't fathom a different opinion or stance.

 

[Planck69]

In any case;

@DarkGrath I've clarified my stance on the issue of the twins to the best of my abilities. It might change your mind, it might not but I'd rather get what I see as a misconception out of the way for good.

 

[Deagonx]

It's demonstrated pretty clearly by the time Kratos reaches the Loom chamber and starts interacting with the threads (notably by him directly harming himself by touching his own thread). And by how the weaves directly correspond to human nations and groups

That's a hasty generalization fallacy. The fact that there are threads that do represent existing lives does not mandate that all of them do, even before they are placed on the loom.

Moreover, even the scenario you are imagining could still simply be fate manip. Biological twins occur when a single existing ovum splits into two. Fating that natural process to occur with something like probability manip or fate manip would still sufficiently explain the events you're theorizing, without the need for a new unproven ability.

That second and third paragraph is to be blunt, a non-sequitir. This is a video game adaptation, that it isn't a 1:1 representation of their powers is pretty obvious. That you disagree with the addition is honestly whatever, this likely is getting removed but it is getting tiring to see responses that constantly seeming like it can't fathom a different opinion or stance.

No one has taken the stance that it needs to be a 1:1 reflection of Greek myths. The issue is with taking the stance (with absolutely no evidence in favor) that the best explanation for a ruler losing his legs is bio manip instead of happening during his lifetime. Or that the Fates must use their grand bio manip abilities to dictate what kind of offspring are possible.

We are five pages in to discuss a phantom ability that appears nowhere in the story, because of events that are explained by their most famous power. This isn't about deviation from Greek myth, it's about making an argument out of thin air just so that these characters don't lose a minor ability. It is a giant waste of time and energy.

 

[DarkGrath]

I'm talking about how the life threads act generally in the novel, not just in that specific scan. They correspond with every living being that exists so this would've made more sense to be altering circumstances surrounding their birth if the threads were made separately beforehand.

I would need to review the GoW lore - and particularly, looking at the novel for myself may be useful in this regard - to say for sure how the Moirai's alterations of fate work. However, off of what I already know, this seems tenuous.

The very reason there are three sisters of fate instead of one is because they collectively engage with three domains of fate - the past, present, and future. We know in particular the past is in their purview due to GoW 2's battle against Lakhesis and Atropos. Even if we say this individual is already born, I'm not convinced this means they aren't capable of changing the course of events of the past to alter their circumstances of their birth.

Let's say that some aspect of GoW lore rejects this specific possibility, which I recognise could be the case. I say this to be clear that the example is not the important part. The important part is that we don't know the mechanism by which this event occurred. We know that they use the threads to change fate, and that this change somehow resulted in someone who either was or was going to be a single person being twins instead. The passage doesn't have any indication to the idea that they directly transmogrified their body to do so, and if anything, it falls contrary to the consistent conception that they make changes indirectly via altering fates through the threads.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I think is fairly simple… Just replace the scan…

 

[KLOL506]

Current tally-

Agree: Deagonx, Damage3245, LordGriffin1000, Mr._Bambu, DarkGrath, CrimsonStarFallen, Sir_Ovens, Maverick_Zero_X,

Disagree: Planck69, Theglassman12, Emirp sumitpo, DarkDragonMedeus, Elizhaa, DemonGodMitchAubin, KLOL506, CloverDragon03 (all support replacing the scan in the OP)

Neutral:

 

[Deagonx]

I think is fairly simple… Just replace the scan…

It isn't, the new scan is also still just Fate manip.

 

[Planck69]

That's a hasty generalization fallacy. The fact that there are threads that do represent existing lives does not mandate that all of them do, even before they are placed on the loom.

Moreover, even the scenario you are imagining could still simply be fate manip. Biological twins occur when a single existing ovum splits into two. Fating that natural process to occur with something like probability manip or fate manip would still sufficiently explain the events you're theorizing, without the need for a new unproven ability.


No one has taken the stance that it needs to be a 1:1 reflection of Greek myths. The issue is with taking the stance (with absolutely no evidence in favor) that the best explanation for a ruler losing his legs is bio manip instead of happening during his lifetime. Or that the Fates must use their grand bio manip abilities to dictate what kind of offspring are possible.

We are five pages in to discuss a phantom ability that appears nowhere in the story, because of events that are explained by their most famous power. This isn't about deviation from Greek myth, it's about making an argument out of thin air just so that these characters don't lose a minor ability. It is a giant waste of time and energy.

"Clotho weaves a thread of life for every mortal, God and Titan" is the first thing you hear upon entering the Loom Chamber. This is just basic information about how the Sisters of Fate operate. "The threads span all life and time" is another thing you hear about the Sisters from Kratos himself. This is all in-game dialogue.

The rest of that reply reads like I'm to just not debate something I view as wrong because it's a minor ability. Yet again, if you or even the majority think this is a wrong ability then fine, it's why we're talking in the first place. But I do not and will present my case why I think as much.

 

[Planck69]

I would need to review the GoW lore - and particularly, looking at the novel for myself may be useful in this regard - to say for sure how the Moirai's alterations of fate work. However, off of what I already know, this seems tenuous.

The very reason there are three sisters of fate instead of one is because they collectively engage with three domains of fate - the past, present, and future. We know in particular the past is in their purview due to GoW 2's battle against Lakhesis and Atropos. Even if we say this individual is already born, I'm not convinced this means they aren't capable of changing the course of events of the past to alter their circumstances of their birth.

Let's say that some aspect of GoW lore rejects this specific possibility, which I recognise could be the case. I say this to be clear that the example is not the important part. The important part is that we don't know the mechanism by which this event occurred. We know that they use the threads to change fate, and that this change somehow resulted in someone who either was or was going to be a single person being twins instead. The passage doesn't have any indication to the idea that they directly transmogrified their body to do so, and if anything, it falls contrary to the consistent conception that they make changes indirectly via altering fates through the threads.

A small correction, the Sisters of Fate in the novel can work on fates of individuals independent of each other, to the point that it's a conflict point for the majority of the time we're in their perspective. They can also simply weave effects into said threads like disease rather than induce them via other means.

I can see where you come from with the rest though, even if I personally disagree. I am just glad I could clear out some doubts and inform you on how the Fates operate.

 

[Deagonx]

Clotho weaves a thread of life for every mortal, God and Titan" is the first thing you hear upon entering the Loom Chamber

That's an excellent point. Think this through, now. If Clotho is personally responsible for weaving the threads for mortal lives, why would we interpret her doing this to create twins as Bio manip instead of her just... weaving threads for mortals like she normally does?

This argument is self defeating. Clotho weaves a thread for every mortal. The quote in question is clearly just describing that process.

The rest of that reply reads like I'm to just not debate something I view as wrong because it's a minor ability

You should not debate something with no evidence, that has strong and direct evidence for a different interpretation that is both thematically consistent with the characters and explained by their most famous ability, just to cling onto an ability.

They can also simply weave effects into said threads like disease rather than induce them via other means.

This is also a matter of them fating it to happen. Clotho mentions this directly to Atropos.

 

[Planck69]

That's an excellent point. Think this through, now. If Clotho is personally responsible for weaving the threads for mortal lives, why would we interpret her doing this to create twins as Bio manip instead of her just... weaving threads for mortals like she normally does?

This argument is self defeating. Clothing weaves a thread for every mortal. The quote in question is clearly just describing that process.


You should not debate something with no evidence, that has strong and direct evidence for a different interpretation that is both thematically consistent with the characters and explained by their most famous ability, just to cling onto an ability.

Because the thread was already woven, and it was split into two new beings, an effect that would reflect on said twins. It is far from the first time they've induced direct change in a being without it being circumstantial either, as they inflame Hades' awareness with a touch, and weave a "flavour of disease" into a thread.

People can debate what they believe fits, regardless of their opposing opinuon on it. Once again, you do not arbitrate what is or isn't valid evidence, that's why I leave it up to evaluation. It's one thing if this does go through but I'm still going to make my case regardless.

Also, respectfully, can you not accuse people of "clinging to an ability" because they don't roll over? Everything the Fates can do on this thread won't disappear just cause the label of the ability changes. I believe the label fits. That's all.

 

[Armorchompy]

Can I get a recap of the opposition's points? Rn I find myself agreeing with Grath but I wanna hear them laid down

 

[Deagonx]

Because the thread was already woven, and it was split into two new beings, an effect that would reflect on said twins.

No, they weren't already woven. The quote in question is literally about her doing the weaving.

"She worked on a dozen new threads, weaving them together and splitting another to birth twins, only to separate them, with each string going onto a different spool."

Once again, you do not arbitrate what is or isn't valid evidence

Of course. I'm not the reason that the quotes in question are not evidence, that just comes down to logic. However, pretending they are evidence and claiming it's just a matter of opinion is not productive or reasonable. Evidence is information that points us in a direction. Describing situations where an event is simply possible is not evidence for that event, if several others are also possible.

You have no information that contradicts fate manip being the explanation. Possibility isn't proof, which is why this is such a waste of time.

 

[Deagonx]

Can I get a recap of the opposition's points? Rn I find myself agreeing with Grath but I wanna hear them laid down

Young ruler scan: The argument was that Atropos (a Fate) was giving a young ruler a "violent fate" which was interpreted to mean he dies a bloody death. So later when he is described as reaching old age without legs it was argued that she changed her mind and simply removed his legs with Bio manip.

Improbable lovers: It was supposed that because the Fates brought a demigod and cloud nymph together as "improbable lovers" and they had offspring, that the Fates must have therefore used a form of Bio manip to allow them to create offspring despite one being a man and the other being a cloud nymph.

Twins: Clotho (another Fate) splits a thread and "births twins" while shes working on new threads. This is being proposed as Bio manip being used on an existing pregnancy to make it a twin pregnancy.

 

[Planck69]

Can I get a recap of the opposition's points? Rn I find myself agreeing with Grath but I wanna hear them laid down

- Clotho wove a violent end for a young king. And Atropos altered that fate to allow him to reach old age with a bright mind but no legs. The debate is whether this is due to her manipulating indirect events like war or willing them away.

- The Fates talk about how they made "improbable couples" come together and have offspring for amusement. Examples given are Ixion and his "cloud love" Nephele, a living cloud (debate is being had over whether she's a cloud or just a nymph representative of a cloud). Another one is how they specify the unions between mortals and animals to amuse them.

- Atropos splits a single thread into two, turning a regular birth into twins. The debate is focuses here right now and it is over whether this is direct biological manipulation or manipulation of surrounding circumstances via probability and fate to ensure twins rather than a single birth.

 

[Deagonx]

I'll note:

Ruler: Atropos never changes her mind, and it was not a violent "end" she had planned, but a violent fate. She describes this as war, which is very obviously where he loses his legs.

Improbable lovers: No evidence suggests they manipulate who can and cannot produce offspring. Supernatural offspring are commonplace in the lore and nothing says the Fates are responsible for it.

 

[KLOL506]

I'll note:

Ruler: Atropos never changes her mind, and it was not a violent "end" she had planned, but a violent fate. She describes this as war, which is very obviously where he loses his legs.

More often than not, them referring to "violent fate" almost always refers to them ending a mortal's life by snipping their threads or stroking them.

Improbable lovers: No evidence suggests they manipulate who can and cannot produce offspring. Supernatural offspring are commonplace in the lore and nothing says the Fates are responsible for it.

"Or as a mortal’s lover,” Lahkesis said, smirking. “Lest you forget some of my more memorable couplings and their offspring. - GoW2 Novel Chapter 8

I know you disagree with the above interpretations, but we're not gonna agree with each other, so that's why staff are here to evaluate. Neither of us dictate what is and isn't evidence.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Quick question, do we know if threads of fate show up once a person is born or can they show up before they're born (If this was answered already my bad but this thing is 5 pages already and I just skimmed it)

 

[KLOL506]

Quick question, do we know if threads of fate show up once a person is born or can they show up before they're born (If this was answered already my bad but this thing is 5 pages already and I just skimmed it)

Yeah.

"Clotho weaves a thread of life for every mortal, God and Titan" is the first thing you hear upon entering the Loom Chamber. This is just basic information about how the Sisters of Fate operate. "The threads span all life and time" is another thing you hear about the Sisters from Kratos himself. This is all in-game dialogue.

If you have further queries, you can ask Planck regarding this.