The split into twins happens in the womb contextually so as long as they've been conceived at least, even if they haven't been born. Granted, it can be debated if it appears earlier than that but we don't get another showcase like this.
Then swapping the scan to that one seems fine to me
Definitively not the case her, as when she first brought up the violent fate her sister asked if it would be disease and she responded war. Nothing in the text suggests she changes her mind. Her thoughts on the matter are consistent throughout the chapter.
This does not make any references to bio manip nor does it suggest they altered who could or could not reproduce.
A quote that makes no reference to an ability nor needs to be explained by that ability is not evidence for that ability. This is not me "dictating" what's evidence or not, that's just basic reasoning and logic.
He has misled you. Nothing says it occurs in the womb.
Please don't go about accusing people of things without evidence, thank you.
I won't and didn't. I've read the chapter in question, there are no references to a womb. Telling another mod that is just lying.
I've engaged the issue directly in triplicate. That doesn't mean I will not also point out when the evidence is being editorialized.
I don't think these are necessarily separate, being able to manipulate causality/fate in itself would let you do things like "yeah this guy's just born crippled now/born with a defect that will inevitably cripple him now. lol". Although losing his legs in some event is also possible.
I guess the question here would be if there's offspring from the latter. Former is vague enough that I wouldn't really assume they can't have offspring (and like, Greek mythology is full of weird-ass pregnancies to begin with), if the latter have children then I'd agree that's some form of bio manip.
I'd consider that similar to the first case. With no further elaboration I'd assume her to just have retconned things rather than actually messed with the fetus(es) directly.
Regarding the second point, the latter do have offspring. I can get the scan itself if need be.
I'm confused by this. If Greek mythology is full of weird pregnancies, what makes humans and animals bio manip? In real life they can't, but that doesn't appear to be the case in GOW and there's nothing that suggests the Fates are the reason why.
I mean, it can still be fate and bio manip if they split in the womb. It doesn't really have to be mutually exclusive.
It would accomplish a similar outcome, but using probability manip to cause a natural but rare thing to happen (biological twins) wouldn't be indexed as bio manip, for example.
That is true but if there's no other occurrence of it in GoW canon I would at least acknowledge the possibility of it being their meddling with a possibly Bio Manip
I assume you are voting against OP then?
I understand the reasoning, but IMO animals and humans are on the less outrageous side of Greek myths so I'm of the mind that it's too speculative, without something more dispositive
Pretty much this
Eh, I'd wait for the scan proper. As is I think it should be a possibly at most
I suppose this makes sense. Count me for agree.
At the point in the discussion you're quoting, there was a misunderstanding about which scan was being used to justify the ability. However, the proposed replacement scan that Clover is referring to is similarly insufficient, as it doesn't talk about bio manip occurring and contextually it very clearly refers to the young ruler losing his legs during a war.
I guess that's flawed then
This is just plain semantics at this point. Planck already elaborated in detail what those threads represent.
give me the reference for this one then so I can read it myself
Nevermind now that I see the actual scan with the twins they literally split a strand to create twins. That's def biological manip
Sure, here you go.
The issue is that Clotho creates threads of life for mortals. It's not outside the realm of their standard fate manip to cause someone to have twins in the process of making new threads. Grath explains it well here:
Is this an achievable feat for bio manip? Yes, certainly. But that would occur through mechanisms that aren't specified here, and their pre-existing abilities (the ones they are known for, as "the Fates") can already handle by themselves.
Yeah, I don't have an issue with the conclusion that Fate Manip is capable of achieving results that overlap with some applications of Bio Manip. The issue is that giving them the ability itself has implications that go beyond what they're capable of. It's clear from the examples being given that they are not capable of changing someone's biology in a way that isn't the direct result of a natural event, which is what we'd typically expect of someone with Bio Manip. Being able to dictate through Fate Manip that someone catches a cold isn't Disease Manipulation, for instance.
That's a good point. Who gets born and how is already part of her wheelhouse through fate manipulation. Bio manip isn't needed for her to bring twins into existence.
