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If I may add my two cents, Bayonetta has proven to be capable of harming Aesir due to the fact that he was clearly damaged before Loki erased the EotW.
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Mini Bayonetta Verse Upgrades
- Thread starter Comicgyal
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No disrespect my mans, but I just got here and I have receipts so you’ll have to take it up with me. Also that doesn’t change what I’ve stated. Loptr does NOT blitz her in all their fights. In fact, in all but the third fight Bayonetta is proven to be on equal footing with Loptr.
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Bayonetta activated the Left Eye before her fight with Gomorrah. She did this on her own and it happened at the beginning of the game.
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I’ve already addressed this in my Bayo 2 downgrade. Bayonetta being comparable to Loptr does not make sense at all when he’s bodied her in all 3 fights, and the final fight with Aesir makes no sense at all cause the 3rd fight happened right before the final fight where Bayonetta had her left eye and Loptr only had the right eye. So all of a sudden base Bayonetta with no eyes can somehow keep up with Aesir with both eyes despite losing in all 3 fights? Do you see where the scaling Falls apart the moment you try to argue Bayonetta’s comparable to Aesir?
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I addressed the problem with Loptr & Aesir.
Bayonetta Correction Update | Fandom
I’ve been gone for a minute and now I see people…
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Dude, Bayonetta was barely able to stand up to fight. She was about to die from Loptr and it took Loki opening the gates of hell to save both of them. Second fight he literally laughs it off when Bayonetta gets beaten by Loptr. Also.
Nothing in the entire fight remotely indicates she was asleep or that she landed when we literally see her lying on the ground and gets up as if she got her ass kicked. You’re arguing about what could’ve happened instead of what ACTUALLY happened.
Third fight again, she couldn’t do a single thing and Loptr is laughing at her as if she’s an amateur. And just takes her power as if it was nothing. Why would she scale when the entire context in all 3 fights points to her being weaker than Loptr?
Nothing in the entire fight remotely indicates she was asleep or that she landed when we literally see her lying on the ground and gets up as if she got her ass kicked. You’re arguing about what could’ve happened instead of what ACTUALLY happened.
Third fight again, she couldn’t do a single thing and Loptr is laughing at her as if she’s an amateur. And just takes her power as if it was nothing. Why would she scale when the entire context in all 3 fights points to her being weaker than Loptr?
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Not at all, considering how you’re taking the fights completely out of context. He doesn’t body her all the fights. The first time, he gets 3 lucky hits in but she gets back up after a short reprieve seemingly recuperated. In the second fight, he stated his intention was to kill her, he acted on those intentions, but ultimately he failed and HE ran away. The third time, he got his hands on the right eye (BUT ONLY BECAUSE HE TOOK THE SOVEREIGN POWER FROM LOKI) and not through his own strength. Bayonetta was open due to her summoning (Which don’t make since if you look at her fights with ML & Valor where everything about her summoning powers that left her vulnerable were corrected. I.E., being stuck posing, losing her clothes, being locked in one place, etc.)
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Where am I taking things out of context? I'm using the scenes as they're shown. Loptr was going to kill bayonetta with no issues at all in the first fight, second fight he literally left because he thought he killed her since she's unable to fight, if the fact that she didn't do anything to stop him and was unconscious the next scene we see her proves she lost the fight. Whether or not he killed her doesn't change the fact that she lost to Loptr. The Sovereign powers from Loki barely has anything to do with the fight because he still beats bayonetta in the fight, her being exposed doesn't really change the fact that she couldn't get out of his grasp and was at his mercy while he wasn't even trying. Can you give any other arguments other than "he tried to kill her but failed"? Being unable to kill someone doesn't disprove them being weaker. By that logic Perfect Cell is weaker than Super Vegeta because he was going to kill him but failed.
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Okay it feels like you’re not listening, Friend.
First of all, Bayonetta was perfectly fine, she recuperated while he was talking shit and got back up ready for round two. But Loptr used a RoT to show Bayonetta how her mother died. This truth changed everything we knew about the past, Balder, the Witch Hunts, everything. Bayo was exhausted or injured, she was shocked & confused. Anyone would be. I know I was, and I’m just the player. While she was trying to process all of that Loptr was just about to take advantage of her opening. That’s why Loki stepped in. That’s all.
Second of all, how many times in fiction and media have we villains laugh while running away after an ass-kicking. It don’t mean that they’ve won anything. It’s nothing more than bravado. And it doesn’t change the fact that Loptr tried to kill her, failed (again), and ran away. I also wanna take the time to remind you. This is the same Loptr in the second fight. HE IS NOT WEAKER IN ANY REGARD. He only took that form to impersonate Loki. Plus, I refuse to believe that a bitch who can headbut sky scrapers across city-length distances without getting bruised or losing consciousness would get knocked out by being hit with A PIECE of a building.
Third of all, Loptr already had his own power which was equal to Bayo’s plus the Right Eye, so of course he’d be cocky. So him being stronger is obvious. And while he did take the Left Eye from her, it’s only because she let down her guard for second. We’ve seen her summon with a snap of her fingers and without losing her suit or being stuck in one place. Plus Loptr has the Sovereign Power, you know, the power that exists only to control the EotW so him easily taking the eyes from Bayo & Balder isn’t as impressive as you’re hyping it up to be.
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He was only in a position to kill her because he had to rely on petty mind tricks in their first confrontation.
What do you mean “unable to do anything”? She destroyed a meteor HE threw at her. He was clearly trying to kill her but couldn’t. That doesn’t make him stronger. Also since we’re talking logic, “Though a meteor at the witch.-doesn’t work. Okay, hit her with a piece of a building and dip out.-I win.” If you think that’s him boding her, (just because he was laughing) than you’re beyond hope. I also wanna point out that Loptr knocks out Balder for all of a few seconds in the third fight, and he did it with a blast not a piece of building. Plus Bayonetta can headbut sky scrapers so the idea that she can get k.o.ed by a piece of a building is nonsensical.
The Sovereign Power has EVERYTHING to do with why Loptr won. IT is why he did all this crap in the first place. IT’S why he needed Loki. IT is why he was able to take the EotW so easily. He literally couldn’t take the eyes without it. HE himself said this. He used the Sovereign Power to take the Right Eye, add it’s power to his own, and beat Bayo. It’s the only reason he won. Are we even talking about the same game?
“He had her by the throat. She couldn’t escape his grip and she was at his mercy.” You know I could make the same argument for Balder, whom she has beaten, killed, & perfectly matches. So...
I’ll stop arguing the fact that he ran away from her when you stop arguing that she was unconscious when there was no indication of how long. Balder was knocked out by Loptr for a few seconds and, if anything, he was hit harder so it’s not like she was in a coma.
Iirc, Perfect Cell didn’t kill Vegeta due to lack of interest not lack of strength, so next.
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In the first fight, he used the Remembrance of Time to mind hax her. She was perfectly fine beforehand.
In the second fight, he claimed he was going to kill her. He acted on that claim. He failed and ran away.
The QTE’s in both fights are SCRIPTED. They’re as accurate as the cutscenes, and they prove that Bayonetta is capable of matching & countering Loptr.
All n All, he ain’t body nobody until the third fight and he needed Loki & Balder’s Power to do so.
In the second fight, he claimed he was going to kill her. He acted on that claim. He failed and ran away.
The QTE’s in both fights are SCRIPTED. They’re as accurate as the cutscenes, and they prove that Bayonetta is capable of matching & countering Loptr.
All n All, he ain’t body nobody until the third fight and he needed Loki & Balder’s Power to do so.
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Please stop using multiple comments to address your point, it’s makes the thread unnecessarily long and can be dealt with in one concise response.
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No disrespect, but if I didn’t have to literally spell everything out and break it down like I have then I wouldn’t. I’m making multiple points and separating them to avoid confusion and addressing different points he made individually. But I’ll apologize and try not to, I guess.
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Glass isn’t an idiot, it sounds sort of patronizing when you describe it as “spell everything out”, one comment with spaces or quotes to each point is a lot easier for readers, and replies.
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While yes I agree that the responses could be a single post instead of multiple I 100% agree with Minaj here. Glass you did this in the last thread too, you're taking the scenes and then describing things that arent happening and/or ignoring crucial details in the scene to suit your argument
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Yeah, it’s clear most people agreed with Dragon’s assessment on it, I have a poor memory of both games but never at one point do I remember Loptr outpacing Bayonetta in speed. Strength, now that’s debatable.
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Except he didnt? The only times hes ever shown to directly hit her are when she was being mindhaxxed or when she was caught off guard with her back turned. Every other instance shes been shown to keep up with him
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First of all, I already apologized and accepted your request. I don’t know what more you want. I just came here to have a fun debate with you guys, not to step on anyone’s toes. Secondly, I never said Glass was an idiot and meant no harm towards him or you. I believe him to be intelligent. I just think he’s misplacing and misunderstanding the facts. Third, it is equally patronizing when you come out of nowhere complaining. Not to sound childish, but your initial request rubbed me the wrong way.
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Okay okay let's chill guys
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Not sure why you quoted me, since you just said that I accepted it, there’s no need to explain further. I never said you called him an idiot either, there’s just no need to break it down with individual comments.
If you think it’s complaining, go for it, if it rubs you the wrong way, okay I suppose.
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Yeah, the one knock out point that was used to justify the downgrade. Regardless, they should be comparable in any instance.
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Except it was agreed that he didnt knock her out in the thread, we had the calc group and agnaa analyze it and everything
On top of her literally shattering a mountain sized meteor seconds before being hit with the building meaning that if anything even if he did knock her out with it it would be a massive outlier
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I know, I never said I agreed with it, that was just my thoughts on it since there’s a debate between her being comparable or not.
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Sheba scaling, there was a brief derail back to speed.
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Right, anyways it’s clear she wasn’t getting blitzed. So back to Sheba, it’s pretty hit or miss really. There’s no explicit statements that they’re comparable to Jubileus in her full powered form, however there’s many implications throughout the game. There’s a hierarchy in Bayonetta, and the fact that Sheba rules over inferno puts her directly on the same field as the other god tiers. Atleast in my opinion. I don’t agree with a 3-A downgrade for her, or Omne, since the combined power of two eye wielders summoned Omne. But I understand wanting to downgrade her.
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I'll keep this brief as I already expressed my opinion on Bayo and Balder scaling to Aesir in 3 threads now.
Watch all three fights involving Loptr/Aesir vs Bayonetta and tell me at what point does Bayonetta seem stronger than Aesir or comparable to a serious Loptr or Aesir? Keep in mind Bayonetta and Balder lose their respective eyes to Loptr and THEN Loptr transforms into Aesir meaning you have to give a reason why Bayonetta and Balder who have no eyes would be comparable to Aesir who in his Loptr form easily defeated them and why Aesir wasn't shown to be struggling during the fight against the two (unless you want to argue getting hit by a satellite would actually hurt someone who is supposedly 3-A through 2-C).
The argument for immeasurable is not sufficient at all and scaling if it were, scaling it to Bayonetta and Balder is still a no no. It is far more likely that Aesir was never trying in his fight against Bayonetta and Balder than simply them both scaling to him in speed. Aesir's arrogant personality makes that an easy argument and his advantage over the two in the past makes it even easier, especially when they both lost their respective eyes prior to fighting Aesir.
Now as for why the argument for immeasurable is not sufficient. "Different moments in time flowing around all around you" doesn't indicate immeasurable speed. The eyes of the world give you the power to store places, objects, beings etc in time as memories and the user creates "time copies" of said objects, this is called Rememberances of Time. Those "different moments in time" are likely Aesir creating a space for him to summon objects that were stored in time as Aesir does this in lore with the eyes of the world and shows this in his fight by summoning the satellite.
And what is this Rodin scaling? So Bayonetta without the left eye is stronger than Queen Sheba? The same Queen Sheba who required both Bayonetta (with Left Eye) and Jeanne to summon it? How strong are we saying Rodin is here? Is he comparable to the weakened or peak version of Jubileus? Why does Rodin being in the same hierarchy as Jubileus mean they are comparable in power in the first place? What is the context of him being viewed as the "most dangerous demon" in Inferno?
Watch all three fights involving Loptr/Aesir vs Bayonetta and tell me at what point does Bayonetta seem stronger than Aesir or comparable to a serious Loptr or Aesir? Keep in mind Bayonetta and Balder lose their respective eyes to Loptr and THEN Loptr transforms into Aesir meaning you have to give a reason why Bayonetta and Balder who have no eyes would be comparable to Aesir who in his Loptr form easily defeated them and why Aesir wasn't shown to be struggling during the fight against the two (unless you want to argue getting hit by a satellite would actually hurt someone who is supposedly 3-A through 2-C).
The argument for immeasurable is not sufficient at all and scaling if it were, scaling it to Bayonetta and Balder is still a no no. It is far more likely that Aesir was never trying in his fight against Bayonetta and Balder than simply them both scaling to him in speed. Aesir's arrogant personality makes that an easy argument and his advantage over the two in the past makes it even easier, especially when they both lost their respective eyes prior to fighting Aesir.
Now as for why the argument for immeasurable is not sufficient. "Different moments in time flowing around all around you" doesn't indicate immeasurable speed. The eyes of the world give you the power to store places, objects, beings etc in time as memories and the user creates "time copies" of said objects, this is called Rememberances of Time. Those "different moments in time" are likely Aesir creating a space for him to summon objects that were stored in time as Aesir does this in lore with the eyes of the world and shows this in his fight by summoning the satellite.
And what is this Rodin scaling? So Bayonetta without the left eye is stronger than Queen Sheba? The same Queen Sheba who required both Bayonetta (with Left Eye) and Jeanne to summon it? How strong are we saying Rodin is here? Is he comparable to the weakened or peak version of Jubileus? Why does Rodin being in the same hierarchy as Jubileus mean they are comparable in power in the first place? What is the context of him being viewed as the "most dangerous demon" in Inferno?
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Because Jubileus feared him so much that she viably believed that he could overthrow her if he wanted to so she had him banished to Inferno
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Who here is trying to scale Bayo and Baldr to Loptr or Aesir in terms of AP? Pretty sure most agree that is not happening.
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I’m still so lost where Aesir and Loptr even came from.
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@Dragonmasterxyz Bayonettaxminaj is arguing that
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Where does it state that Jubiues feared him? and which Jubileus are you talking about? Weakened or full power?
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Well Bayo can make that a focus of another thread. That is not the purpose of this CRT.
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I’m back. And I can see where it looks like I got heated. Like I said I meant no disrespect or harm to anyone. So to Glass & Milly I apologize. I don’t wanna kill the vibe. Let’s keep the fun going.
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No they're not, no one is arguing for scaling them to him physically, only in speed
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@Dienomite22 btw little trivia, the eyes of the world no longer belong to Jubileus as Loptr was the actual true owners of the eyes. So at best the whole Rodin feared by Jubileus would at best be her with no eyes.
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Well anyway, I gave my thoughts on the speed stuff. Assuming you don't need me anymore I am backing away from this thread before it becomes a dumpster fire.
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@Comicgyal here's the thing, Omne's summon isn't done via the two eye wielders of the world. That's never been stated in the lore, what's stated in the lore is that an umbran witch and a lumen sage combined can summon her, and they summoned her AFTER both eyes were erased. Them needing the eyes of the world was never stated to be a requirement for Omne.
@BayonettaxMinaj ok if you're arguing about the speed can you drop it? I already said I conceded on it. If you're arguing about the tiering for Aesir, barely any of your points added anything to the discussion as they're basically the same arguments I've addressed to Weekly back in the downgrade thread, so let's stay on topic and focus on the Rodin and Queen Sheba/Omne scaling.
@WeeklyBattles where was it stated that Jubileus feared him though? Not only is Rodin ranked below Jubileus if the wiki is anything to go by, but the eyes aren't even a thing for Jubileus anymore, at best that whole argument of heaven feared him would include Jubileus with 0 eyes, who has 0 onscreen feats and whatever tied her to the eyes of the world has been retconned in the second game as that was Loptr's thing, not Jubileus.
@BayonettaxMinaj ok if you're arguing about the speed can you drop it? I already said I conceded on it. If you're arguing about the tiering for Aesir, barely any of your points added anything to the discussion as they're basically the same arguments I've addressed to Weekly back in the downgrade thread, so let's stay on topic and focus on the Rodin and Queen Sheba/Omne scaling.
@WeeklyBattles where was it stated that Jubileus feared him though? Not only is Rodin ranked below Jubileus if the wiki is anything to go by, but the eyes aren't even a thing for Jubileus anymore, at best that whole argument of heaven feared him would include Jubileus with 0 eyes, who has 0 onscreen feats and whatever tied her to the eyes of the world has been retconned in the second game as that was Loptr's thing, not Jubileus.
Valiant_Abyss
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Actually, he left because his goal was to kill Rosa but he was currently occupied with Bayo so he attacked her and escaped.
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