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@Crimson_Shadow101 so either way, the whole argument of fleeing doesn't exactly hold up since Bayo was hardly his concern, but we've derailed this thread enough, let's get back to the topic on Sheba, Omne and Rodin.
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Mini Bayonetta Verse Upgrades
- Thread starter Comicgyal
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- #162
Not scaling Bayonetta to full powered Aesir, that was mentioned in the crt. I dunno where any of that came from in the threads, but disregard that.
Immeasurable speed was already disagreed upon, sticking to MFTL speed for their base forms via scaling. Atleast until I bring up the other infinite stuff.
Base Bayonetta 1: 3-A, via scaling to Father Rodin, who isn’t much weaker than Jubileus.
Base Bayonetta 2: 3-A, possibly Low 2-C via scaling Demon Rodin. We can assume Demon is stronger than Queen Sheba, due to the guidebooks saying
"An immortal man feared as the most dangerous demon in the entire barren wasteland of Inferno.”
Essentially making him > queen Sheba. Base Bayonetta 2 is stronger than base Bayonetta 1, so her being stronger than Sheba is fine.
The thing is, Omne is summoned with the eyes. I’ll explain it a bit, since you have to look at Bayonetta 1.
Essentially there are multiple timelines in Bayonetta, whenever they mess with the past an entirely new timeline is created. In Bayonetta 1 Balder has the right eye of light, however that Balder is the one from Bayonetta 2. It’s Aesir taking control of his body.
The eyes weren’t “destroyed” per say, instead they were given back to their respective overseers. Thus “erasing” it from Aesirs body, so the power of nothingness is still valid. If that wasn’t the case, then this Balder can’t have the right eye, since it’s the Balder from Bayonetta 2.
When Omne was summoned, you can see that she has both eyes of the world, due to being summoned by Bayonetta and Balder. This isn’t a “design choice” either, because when Jubileus is summoned both of her eyes are blue, due to being summoned by just the right eye. Queen Shebas eyes are both red, because she was summoned by just the left eye.
It’s up to you whether you believe that or not though.
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The Hierarchy of Laguna is what we use to scale all of the Angels in both games anyway so I don’t see how any of you find it unreliable now. Rodin is the only other Dea-Ranked angel that we know of other than Jubileus. And given his roles in Paradiso, his abilities, and the scale of his legend & the weapons he’s created he should be somewhat comparable.
And I don’t understand why Bayonetta wouldn’t scale to him considering the fact that he gets ****** up by every demon he puts in her weaponry,(with exceptions like SF & Alruna.)
Regardless of who made the EotW (I don’t even remember anything saying Jubileus created the EotW), Jubileus still needed them to regain her full power therefore Aesir should be comparable to Her full power. Queen Sheba was born from all of the divine power that Jubileus lost so she should be comparable too. Plus the lore says that Rodin is the strongest “DEMON” in Inferno QS isn’t a demon.
And I don’t understand why Bayonetta wouldn’t scale to him considering the fact that he gets ****** up by every demon he puts in her weaponry,(with exceptions like SF & Alruna.)
Regardless of who made the EotW (I don’t even remember anything saying Jubileus created the EotW), Jubileus still needed them to regain her full power therefore Aesir should be comparable to Her full power. Queen Sheba was born from all of the divine power that Jubileus lost so she should be comparable too. Plus the lore says that Rodin is the strongest “DEMON” in Inferno QS isn’t a demon.
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@Comicgyal the design choice has nothing to do with them having the eyes. You need actual concrete evidence to show that they actually have the eyes. the design choice making them have different color eyes doesn't give us anything, and again, Omne was summoned via two characters with 0 eyes. If there's anything that explains Omne is capable of beating Aesir with both eyes, then sure I can accept it, but so far there's not much to go off of for her.
They were erased. Loki literally said his power can erase anything in the world, even the eyes that created it. Also in regards to balder being the one from Bayo 2, that's just a massive plot hole that's never explained, simple as that. Kamiya didn't think the plot through when trying to make this a timeloop since erasing the eyes, as stated by Loki, wouldn't have made the events of the first game happen to begin with.
@BayonettaxMinaj that's not the point, Rodin's lore at best has him scaled from Jubileus with no eyes if we're to assume the rulers of paradiso includes her, so the universal scaling for Rodin wouldn't be legit anymore because that entire lore about Jubileus having the eyes is retconned to oblivion. That was never something that belonged to her, that was something that belonged to Loptr thanks to bayonetta 2.
They were erased. Loki literally said his power can erase anything in the world, even the eyes that created it. Also in regards to balder being the one from Bayo 2, that's just a massive plot hole that's never explained, simple as that. Kamiya didn't think the plot through when trying to make this a timeloop since erasing the eyes, as stated by Loki, wouldn't have made the events of the first game happen to begin with.
@BayonettaxMinaj that's not the point, Rodin's lore at best has him scaled from Jubileus with no eyes if we're to assume the rulers of paradiso includes her, so the universal scaling for Rodin wouldn't be legit anymore because that entire lore about Jubileus having the eyes is retconned to oblivion. That was never something that belonged to her, that was something that belonged to Loptr thanks to bayonetta 2.
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@Theglassman12 The lore on Rodin from Bayonetta 1 scales him from the original full-power Jubileus before the Verse was split into the Trinity of Realities. Rodin became a Ruler of a portion of Paradiso, & was given the title The INFINITE ONE by angels strictly due to his power, skill, and his level of experience. He’s the only other Dea-Ranked that we know of, and him being the one who led the rebellion, split the trinity, and forced Jubileus into an eternal slumber is the only thing that makes sense.
How was Jubileus needing the EotW to regain her Full Power retconned to oblivion in Bayonetta 2 when Fortitudo clearly stated the opposite in a flashback? Don’t Worry I’l Wait
How was Jubileus needing the EotW to regain her Full Power retconned to oblivion in Bayonetta 2 when Fortitudo clearly stated the opposite in a flashback? Don’t Worry I’l Wait
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@BayonettaxMinaj where has Rodin ever stated to put Jubileus to sleep? On top of splitting the trinity of realities?
Loptr's entire backstory retcons that completely. You cannot say that the eyes belong to Jubileus when they never came from Jubileus to begin with. Aesir always had the eyes, and he gave them to humanity, that's stated numerous times in the lore for bayonetta 2. Jubileus owning the eyes to begin with was never a thing because Bayonetta 2 has contradicting lore to that. You cannot use the old lore when it's contradicted by the new lore.
Loptr's entire backstory retcons that completely. You cannot say that the eyes belong to Jubileus when they never came from Jubileus to begin with. Aesir always had the eyes, and he gave them to humanity, that's stated numerous times in the lore for bayonetta 2. Jubileus owning the eyes to begin with was never a thing because Bayonetta 2 has contradicting lore to that. You cannot use the old lore when it's contradicted by the new lore.
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I’m starting to think you don’t listen. I never once said that the EotW came from Jubileus. I SAID that she needed their power to regain the power she had before the verse was split into the Trinity of Realities. I never once said that she made the eyes or that they belonged to her. And again their was no contradiction because in Bayo 1, we learned that the EotW belonged to humanity-(The LS & UW) who used their power to preserve balance. Jubileus needed both eyes to resurrect & regain her old strength. And in Bayonetta 2, we learned that the EotW were made by Aesir and he gave them to humanity. This just added to the lore. It explains crap we already knew about. NOTHING CHANGES. First off, you find me a passage or post that states that Jubileus made the EotW and I’ll back off. Second, show me where I specifically said that and I’ll apologize.
Aesir & Queen Sheba were born as a result of the Split. Aesir’s Eyes could get Jub. Back to full power. If you’re debunking that then we all need to have a chat about her. Anyway QS & Omne have strength in the Infinitons. And while this may not be an actual measurement, it implies infinite strength/energy.
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So I'm assuming you don't have anything in regards to Rodin stated to put Jubileus to sleep? On top of splitting the three realms? Cause you haven't responded to that part.
First off when did I say that you claimed that Jubileus made the EotW? I never said that, all I've said is that the eyes never belonged to her. Whatever lore in the first game that remotely implies that the eyes belonged to Jubileus doesn't even count thanks to Loptr's entire lore explaining that the eyes came from him. Again, Aesir was the one who owned the eyes to begin with, that's stated numerous times in the second game, how many times must I repeat myself?
The infinitons argument does not work here at all. If you're seriously taking that as a legit scaling, you do realize that this would downgrade Bayonetta to 7-A and all of her summons to High 6-C right? Because Bayo at max on her own is in the megatons with her QTE and the summons in the gigatons, this line of logic does not work here, and would work against you considering it contradicts the High 6-A scaling to begin with.
First off when did I say that you claimed that Jubileus made the EotW? I never said that, all I've said is that the eyes never belonged to her. Whatever lore in the first game that remotely implies that the eyes belonged to Jubileus doesn't even count thanks to Loptr's entire lore explaining that the eyes came from him. Again, Aesir was the one who owned the eyes to begin with, that's stated numerous times in the second game, how many times must I repeat myself?
The infinitons argument does not work here at all. If you're seriously taking that as a legit scaling, you do realize that this would downgrade Bayonetta to 7-A and all of her summons to High 6-C right? Because Bayo at max on her own is in the megatons with her QTE and the summons in the gigatons, this line of logic does not work here, and would work against you considering it contradicts the High 6-A scaling to begin with.
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That was covered by:
Though, I’m not exactly sure if this would apply to The Eyes, since if there’s no Eyes, then there’s no first game, or another timeline is created without the eyes, or like Glass said, a retcon.
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Neutral on all this btw.
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I believe Minaj is trying to say Jubileus was strong without the eyes. The EOTW are being misused a bit.
1. Aesir made the eyes of the world, these eyes maintain the balance, and allow other hax stuff. ( It goes without saying Aesir is incredibly powerful, to be able to create these eyes in the first place but nevermind that...)
2. Jubileus was the strongest without the eyes of the world. In lore she created the universe, and sat at the apex of everything. That was until Armageddon happened, and her power was lost.
3. The eyes of the world are the only way to restore her power, but that’s because they’re the strongest item in the verse. Not because Jubileus has some connection with them. To summon Jubileus you have to fulfill certain conditions, in Bayonetta 1 the weakened jubileus is weakened even further because she wasn’t resurrected in paradiso.
Don’t make the mistake of thing she’s only that strong with the eyes, because before the eyes came into existence she was already the strongest. Though that doesn’t matter in context of her tier in vs battle, as her feat is via what she can do with the eyes, just keep that in mind.
Ultimately what we’re arguing isn’t going to go anywhere. It’s quite obvious many of us disagree with it, and you can debate either side simply because of how vague the lore can be. As I proved in my response earlier, there’s many ways to interpret the eyes being erased, and all of the timeline mixups.
With that being said, we need to come to a conclusion. We’ve been discussing the same thing for days now. My stance won’t change, Sheba and Omne scale to full powered Jubileus, since Sheba is pretty much her inferno counterpart. Along with many other implications. At this point Glass it’s just you, and maybe the guy from before? Who disagree, as everyone above already approved the upgrades.
1. Aesir made the eyes of the world, these eyes maintain the balance, and allow other hax stuff. ( It goes without saying Aesir is incredibly powerful, to be able to create these eyes in the first place but nevermind that...)
2. Jubileus was the strongest without the eyes of the world. In lore she created the universe, and sat at the apex of everything. That was until Armageddon happened, and her power was lost.
3. The eyes of the world are the only way to restore her power, but that’s because they’re the strongest item in the verse. Not because Jubileus has some connection with them. To summon Jubileus you have to fulfill certain conditions, in Bayonetta 1 the weakened jubileus is weakened even further because she wasn’t resurrected in paradiso.
Don’t make the mistake of thing she’s only that strong with the eyes, because before the eyes came into existence she was already the strongest. Though that doesn’t matter in context of her tier in vs battle, as her feat is via what she can do with the eyes, just keep that in mind.
Ultimately what we’re arguing isn’t going to go anywhere. It’s quite obvious many of us disagree with it, and you can debate either side simply because of how vague the lore can be. As I proved in my response earlier, there’s many ways to interpret the eyes being erased, and all of the timeline mixups.
With that being said, we need to come to a conclusion. We’ve been discussing the same thing for days now. My stance won’t change, Sheba and Omne scale to full powered Jubileus, since Sheba is pretty much her inferno counterpart. Along with many other implications. At this point Glass it’s just you, and maybe the guy from before? Who disagree, as everyone above already approved the upgrades.
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@Comicgyal Crimson hasn't said he fully agrees with this, neither has Milly (hell he even said he's neutral not even a few comments ago), Cyberblader didn't really said he agreed, DDM hasn't mentioned agreeing, and only commented on the speed. DragonMaster said he's ok with just 3-A, likely higher for Sheba and Omne, and Dienomite has some disagreements. So far on this thread you have Weekly, Schnee and BayonettaxMinaj actually have some agreements on the tiering. And side note, just because your stance won't change that doesn't mean there is no room for discussion. If that was the case then God of War and DMC wouldn't have been upgraded because of a certain person not changing their stance on how they should be rated.
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We’ve been discussing it for the past few days, so I’m not sure what you mean.
I agreed, Milly agreed in the first thread and made a comment for infinite speed, Minaj agrees, Weekly agrees, DDM only disagreed with immeasurable speed but accepted everything else, Schnee agreed earlier, Crimson only had a problem with angel Rodin scaling to full powered jubileus. Which we decided to just stick with the 3-A rating.
So it’s essentially
Agree: Comicgyal, Milly, BayonettaxMinaj, Weeklybattles, DDM(only commented speed) Schnee
Neutral: Cyberblader / Crimson
Disagree: You, Dienomite
What I’m trying to say is, it’s been the same few of us discussing this so far but it’s not getting anywhere. If Crimson, DDM, and DragonMaster can read the recent comments and give their opinions then that’d be good.
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Read Milly’s most recent comment. He literally said I’m neutral on the tiering. Also where did DDM say he agreed with the tiering? Last time I checked he only commented on speed. And DragonMaster said that Omne and Sheba being 3-A likely higher means he agrees with how I believe they should be tiered. Also btw, you can't exactly count yourself in the agree poll if you're the one who made the CRT last time I checked. By default the person who made the CRT would agree with it, what counts is the other people's opinions on whether or not they agree.
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Where is infinite speed coming from and why is Irenic's speed being mentioned?
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Because with the new MFTL+ feats thre is little reason to considr Irenic's feat an outlier
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What Irenic feat? The one that supposedly says Paradiso is larger than the human world?
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Yup, though thats only one of almost a dozn statements that paradiso is vastly larger than the human univrse
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You do realize Irenic’s feat being infinite makes it an even bigger outlier right?
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Except that description isn't saying Paridiso is larger than the human universe. It's saying Paridiso is thousands of times larger than Earth. The descriptions in Bayonetta makes it clear when referring to the "Human Realm" (universe) and "human realm" (Earth). What are these other statements? and since when has Irenic's feat been accepted as scaling to others?
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@Dienomite22 Irenic’s feat was rejected a long time ago because Jubileus’ feat of flying through the solar system is far far slower than Irenic’s feat, making it a massive outlier.
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Jubileus' feat of being near death after a long fight of getting her ass kicked
Funny thing is she has a feat well above hr current one as well
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No? 'The Human World' is consistently used to refer to the human universe, not the Earth. Even in both Rodin's and Loptr's explanations of the Trinity of Realitis they refer to the human universe as the Human World
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Anyone got a Tl;DR?
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Yes, "Human World/realm" is the human universe, "human world" is not, which is what Irenic's description uses. I said this in my comment you replied to.
Bayonetta's description uses "human realm/world" to refer to Earth. Now, what are these other statements for infinite paradiso?
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Irenic
Irenics are Principalities of the Third Sphere within the Hierarchy of Laguna. They are car-shaped angels that only appear in Chapter VIII of the first Bayonetta game on a highway called Route 666. Irenic only has access to a single attack that causes it to drop obstacles in Bayonetta's path...
bayonetta.fandom.com
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@WeeklyBattles her being completely fine and flying straight back at Bayonetta does not sound like someone that was near death. That’s not her being near death at that point in the fight.
@Warren_Valion I’m arguing Omne and Sheba to be 3-A since there’s barely any proof they’re on the levels of the EotW, Rodin scaling to Jubileus being iffy because there’s no proof it factors in the eyes since Jubileus never owned the eyes, it being just Loptr.
@Warren_Valion I’m arguing Omne and Sheba to be 3-A since there’s barely any proof they’re on the levels of the EotW, Rodin scaling to Jubileus being iffy because there’s no proof it factors in the eyes since Jubileus never owned the eyes, it being just Loptr.
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Thanks for posting the description for some reason.Irenic
Irenics are Principalities of the Third Sphere within the Hierarchy of Laguna. They are car-shaped angels that only appear in Chapter VIII of the first Bayonetta game on a highway called Route 666. Irenic only has access to a single attack that causes it to drop obstacles in Bayonetta's path...
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I ask once again for the speed stuff. I shouldn't have to as it should be in a thread when there are arguments for infinite and immeasurable speed.
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Youre welcome, hopefully that clears up issue that yes, Paradiso is thousands of times larger than the human universe
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Lmao, sure. Now give me the stuff for infinite speed and infinite Paradiso.
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Let’s stop talking about Irenic until this is down.
I wouldn’t want to TL;Dr the arguments, as it goes into a couple things, however here’s mine.
I wouldn’t want to TL;Dr the arguments, as it goes into a couple things, however here’s mine.
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It’s not his information, it’s mine, and it’s not apart of this CRT.
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Here’s where I talk about Rodin scaling with Jubileus a bit, and how specifications wouldn’t really matter. However Rodin scaling to jubileus isn’t iffy at all.
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Okay. I'll keep the discussion on this CRT.
How does Omne have both eyes when they were literally erased two seconds before? Also:
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I already replied to that, and just quoted my response to it just a few minutes ago.
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What part of it did you respond to? Because it wasn't the entire thing or are you talking about Omne's eyes thing?
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The eyes are in there, same for the scaling. I did miss the Rodin thing though, however BayonettaMinaj commented on it right after.
Their first paragraph.
Anyways for convenience sake:
We’ve been comparing father Rodin to weakened jubileus, due to their halos being the same. Angels within the same rank are similar in power, and that’s how we scale them.
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Is that all you have saying that Rodin is > Sheba? Because that seems a bit circumstantial.
The "most dangerous" is not necessarily the same as "most powerful".
There is also this quote I saw earlier:
“When the cosmos was split into light, darkness, and the chaos in-between, the incredibly powerful Sheba was born alongside the darkness controlling the world of Inferno. She lives in the hellish land, and is often classified as a demon; however, the full details of her existence are unknown”
This quote implies that despite being classified as a demon by others usually, the make-up of her actual existence is different and could be something more entirely. So even if you were to take the most dangerous as an indication of strength, it very likely seems to not include Sheba in that description.
So I don't think that what you have shown is sufficient evidence for a definitive tier change, at most a "possibly" rating, but even then, that is a little iffy.
Also, question, but why is Base Bayonetta from 2 stronger than 1? Is there a statement or something saying this?
I don't really have enough context based to discuss the Omne stuff, so I won't say anything about that.
The "most dangerous" is not necessarily the same as "most powerful".
There is also this quote I saw earlier:
“When the cosmos was split into light, darkness, and the chaos in-between, the incredibly powerful Sheba was born alongside the darkness controlling the world of Inferno. She lives in the hellish land, and is often classified as a demon; however, the full details of her existence are unknown”
This quote implies that despite being classified as a demon by others usually, the make-up of her actual existence is different and could be something more entirely. So even if you were to take the most dangerous as an indication of strength, it very likely seems to not include Sheba in that description.
So I don't think that what you have shown is sufficient evidence for a definitive tier change, at most a "possibly" rating, but even then, that is a little iffy.
Also, question, but why is Base Bayonetta from 2 stronger than 1? Is there a statement or something saying this?
I don't really have enough context based to discuss the Omne stuff, so I won't say anything about that.
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