Minecraft Key dividers and tier inaccuracies

[Idazmi]

(...) I can definitely agree that - should the idea of simply applying a 'possibly' rating to the profile with physical strength deriving from the block destroying feat - 7-C isn't exactly the best tier in consideration of the fact that it assumes iron is being completely vaporized despite there being no steam particles or anything implying such.

Exactly.

 

[Jinsye]

I'm gonna do a quick calc of the Wither's explosion with some lowballs

Saikou's blog says 1148 blocks were destroyed

V. Frag of Stone and Pulv of Stone I'll use

1.148e+9*69 = 79212000000 joules or 18.9321223709 tons of TNT

1.148e+9*214.35 = 246073800000 joules or 58.8130497132 tons of tnt.

8-B seems nice. Assuming we treat the ED vaporizing water as actual vaporization this supports it.

 

[EmbalmerMaster9000]

I'm gonna do a quick calc of the Wither's explosion with some lowballs

Saikou's blog says 1148 blocks were destroyed

V. Frag of Stone and Pulv of Stone I'll use

1.148e+9*69 = 79212000000 joules or 18.9321223709 tons of TNT

1.148e+9*214.35 = 246073800000 joules or 58.8130497132 tons of tnt.

8-B seems nice. Assuming we treat the ED vaporizing water as actual vaporization this supports it.

Just to make sure, I think we can try to determine the volume of the explosion that the Wither creates via pixel scaling its height to the diameter of it and - assuming that the amount of blocks it destroys is equivalent to the total volume of said explosion - use that volume for the total amount of stone that is destroyed in its wake. Either that or, more preferably, determine what percentage of stone/whatever the Wither is blowing is actually being destroyed within the explosion (given how Minecraft explosions work).

EDIT: forgot to add some more stuff onto this.

From there, we can use that yield (the total power of the explosion) to determine how durable a player in diamond armor should be, as - and I hope my memory serves me correctly - explosions in Minecraft inflict less damage the further away entities are from their epicenters. That in itself would be a matter of inverse-square law math and surface area stuff alone.

 

[GyroNutz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4qY5s7JPBM&feature=youtu.be

 

[GyroNutz]

From there, we can use that yield (the total power of the explosion) to determine how durable a player in diamond armor should be, as - and I hope my memory serves me correctly - explosions in Minecraft inflict less damage the further away entities are from their epicenters. That in itself would be a matter of inverse-square law math and surface area stuff alone.

This is true, though according to the Minecraft Wiki, the absolute maximum damage the Wither explosion does is 68 damage which even a player in unenchanted diamond armour can survive.

 

[Jinsye]

Iron Golems and the Dragin take it no problem either

 

[GyroNutz]

8-B seems to be the most consistent tier right now

 

[Idazmi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4qY5s7JPBM&feature=youtu.be

1. You should have uploaded this video when you made your initial claim two days ago, instead of all this rigmarole.

2. The blocks are passing right through the Ender Dragon, giving an even more solid indication that the Ender Dragon's physical interactions with blocks are game mechanics in general.

 

[Davidgumazon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4qY5s7JPBM&feature=youtu.be

1. You should have uploaded this video when you made your initial claim two days ago, instead of all this rigmarole.
2. The blocks are passing right through the Ender Dragon, giving an even more solid indication that the Ender Dragon's physical interactions with blocks are game mechanics in general.

1. You missed his point do you?

2. Aw that's cute, that's false, I will say this that you should stop being bias, because you totally trying to win the argument with @GyroNutz for that silly reason, why? You do realized that falling blocks (this includes prime TNT) passed through entities and completely has nothing to do with Ender Dragon's interaction in general which indicates that your claims and interpretations were abused to this level and constantly opposed to @Saikou's arguments while your arguments didn't make sense by justifying it by gamemechanics and unnecessary WoG, and plus you shrugged off my comment#141 as nothing but "irrelevant" and consequently people ignore my comment AGAIN! SERIOUSLY!?! No response from other people (except the complain about wall of text) whilst you did more controversy, bad move man, and your argument's point was directed to interpretation which only has little to do with my comment though, and then do you know what happen until 2 people here interpret their own ways? No you don't. Their interpretation was the same thing what I said before though.

Tell me how my comment is irrelevant. Don't say anything "smart" thing when you can't read people's mind, my comments were potentially useful information, but you said this instead:

"Non Sequitur - you are distracting from the argument with a massive amount of irrelevant data."

I've noticed your interpretation of Ender Dragon for several times were abused by through gameplay (this had been discussed it already with @Saikou) throughout this thread.

Haha, good to know you're that kind of person, I will say this once I declaring a W A R again in this debate but only against you (War is obviously a figure of speech), I'm more knowledgeable in the interaction thingy in Minecraft and what you claimed about block's hardness and resistance providing more proof Ender Dragon's "gamemechanics" which is irrelevant to the entire argument of Ender Dragon's AP and DC though.

Why? It's Work As Intended because they have nothing to do with Ender Dragon as the dragon wasn't gamemechanics because of your interpretation about is when Ender Dragon interacting those falling blocks, but the falling blocks were gamemechanics because they don't interact almost everything (technically has nothing to do nor interact with entities, but they could interact with normal blocks, tile blocks and non-solid blocks) which has nothing to do with your argument of "because of it hence Ender Dragon has gamemechanics" doesn't make Ender Dragon a gamemechanics, the your interpretation of it was the real problem here though, also it wasn't a lie, your key suggestion doesn't make sense, and this is clear opposition to your argument's interpretation of Ender Dragon.

Harsh truth "pal". You should realized @GyroNutz didn't lie and he's in this Minecraft vsb wikia's since the argument about Minecraft speed, however you said he a lied, you're very aggressive at his point.

Now tell me this, what's really you're trying to accomplished here about Ender Dragon? It should be Existence Erasure abilities or otherwise you claimed "it shouldn't be qualified as ability or an AP", if I'm mistaken, you should write in.

"That's an explosion in Minecraft. There is a shockwave, dust, debris (you can see fence posts and sand blocks scattered around), and an asymmetrical crater."

First off your interpretation of TNT is flawed, and this case what of @Saikou to you make sense, Secondly they're asymmetrical crater because of blocks that leaves something behind whilst on the center don't as @Edward said before, but you're missing something about TNT's explosion: They explode technically in 4 lines of symmetry rays along with more rays in 3D about thousands of rays though. Also TNT wasn't really accurate indicating the dura of Diamond tier armor.

PS. Microsoft already obliterated your argument once you hear this: The new update near 1.14 or snapshots they're now removing about Notch. Also which is why the crafting recipe about Notch Golden apple was removed. GG

Notch is credited as creator as a former owner but retired long ago. Microsoft is now the owner of Minecraft, and remember this: Mojang wasn't in charge of every devices.

 

[Davidgumazon]

I'm gonna do a quick calc of the Wither's explosion with some lowballs

Saikou's blog says 1148 blocks were destroyed

V. Frag of Stone and Pulv of Stone I'll use

1.148e+9*69 = 79212000000 joules or 18.9321223709 tons of TNT

1.148e+9*214.35 = 246073800000 joules or 58.8130497132 tons of tnt.

8-B seems nice. Assuming we treat the ED vaporizing water as actual vaporization this supports it.

Wither spawn doesn't destroy Obsidian. So you're might forgetting something, you should calc Wither ramming/dash attack and blue skulls (which is comparable to top tier enchanted diamond sword) instead because they were more powerful than Wither spawning.

And the Player can tank the Wither dash at close range combat and tank blue wither skulls many times which could destroy the obisdian.

Then if we disagree with the "Player scaling to Wither dash destruction" by my logic and agree to that the "Player scaling must be at level of the Wither spawning destruction", then by that logic the Wither blue skull would one hit kill the Player with top tier enchantments with diamond tier armor so it has contradictory.

However that AP alone can be scaled only to Player w/ non-enchanted full set of diamond armor so it wasn't completely rejected and was only viable to Pre-Post Game key since the lore imply that the you could mine and craft full set of diamond before fighting the Ender Dragon. It needs to be fix by splitting that key into two since the new update.

Pre-Post Game and Late Game has access to diamonds and enchantments. Those two keys were seperate decision by the Player.

Pre-Post Game is an exception the enchanting diamond armor was restricted cuz that would be same level as the all bosses in the game and if we think more of it the Wither is more stronger than non-enchanted diamond armor, hence they're restricted to items such as Notch Apples and enchanted diamond armor, however they have access to potions and golden apples and golden carrots fortunately.

(Note: Golden Apple =/= Notch Apple | Notch Apple > Golden Apple)

The Pre-Post Game key would be more specifically for Pillager Raids aka Overworld lore boss fight event and the Player has access to full set of iron w/ high tier enchantments because it was more or slight better than non-enchanted diamond armor and was enough to survive and tank from pillagers and illagers from hard mode Pillager Raids. So if we use fair scaling for Pre-Post Game key then it can't fight the Wither lore-wise. But it can fight the Ender Dragon only once.

For Late Game key, this will be based on two otherwordly Boss Fights, and exactly defeating 4 Withers and 2 Ender Dragons (Oof! Wow! I'm the only one guy who mentioned this stuff about resurrecting the Ender Dragon in this vsb wikia lol). So the Player w/ top tier enchanted full set of diamond armor would only make sense to fight and scaled on the same level of the Ender Dragon and the Wither, whilst the Overworld boss fight like hard mode Pillager Raid the Player can fight them easily as it make sense the key has access to Notch Apples. Additionally, Player's top tier enchanted diamond pickaxe is comparable to top tier enchanted diamond sword.

 

[Davidgumazon]

Just to make sure, I think we can try to determine the volume of the explosion that the Wither creates via pixel scaling its height to the diameter of it and - assuming that the amount of blocks it destroys is equivalent to the total volume of said explosion - use that volume for the total amount of stone that is destroyed in its wake. Either that or, more preferably, determine what percentage of stone/whatever the Wither is blowing is actually being destroyed within the explosion (given how Minecraft explosions work).

Pixel scaling wouldn't really usable here since from what I remember those things were already rejected in the past threads and was never brought again until you did.

From there, we can use that yield (the total power of the explosion) to determine how durable a player in diamond armor should be, as - and I hope my memory serves me correctly - explosions in Minecraft inflict less damage the further away entities are from their epicenters. That in itself would be a matter of inverse-square law math and surface area stuff alone.

"explosions in Minecraft inflict less damage the further away entities are from their epicenters."

True however that doesn't mean the same thing in the logic of reality, if you're implying it has something to do with entity damage then that logic would be inconsistent sadly which doesn't qualify as accurate scaling.

"That in itself would be a matter of inverse-square law math and surface area stuff alone."

Uhh huh, that doesn't make sense by including it into this kind of argument, it will not be accurate as you thought to be as you realized the higher power explosion of Minecraft's TNT was inconsistent to that math and sphere from matter of inverse-square law math cuz hey that's illegal! If you don't get the joke why it was "illegal" that means you really don't know that meme in Minecraft. So I will put @Edward's quote here:

Also trying to use some physics talk to justify why a destructive feat is invalid in fiction which commonly ignores physics isn't the best argument.

 

[Davidgumazon]

Continuing my comment#252 and here#253 and here#141:

So the Late Game should be scaled from what Wither's blue skulls are made of and the Wither dash/ramming. Simply calculating the amount of AP it generates in order to destroy Obsidian.

Here the video about Wither casual ramming, aka Wither's dash which inflicts 150% damage (7.5 hearts) of Ender Dragon's ramming (5 hearts).

The debate would be like: Wither's skulls destroying obsidia and Wither dash/ramming obsidians and Player top tier enchanted diamond pickaxe/sword end-game VS Wither spawning explosio and Inconsistency of Explosion damage.

Rather than shrugging off other scaling, both scaling make sense if we make that separate the key rather than 1 late game as I said my comment#252 before.

I think I suggest the fourth key and would be like this:

The current keys: 9-A | 8-C | 7-C

My suggested changes: 9-A | 8-C | 8-B | At least High 8-A with 7-C dura

Base | Early/Mid Game | Pre-Post Game | Late Game

9-A and 8-C is supported by what I said#141 before. 8-B is based on what @Edwardtruong2006 said before but can be scaled to non-enchanted full set of diamond armor and Pillager Raid. The Wither spawning only indicates how it would survive the explosion and guess what the implication of it applied to Iron Golem and Ravager and non-enchanted diamond armor and high tier enchanted full set of iron armor.

At least High 8-A and 7-C since the fact they can't one shot each other in High 8-A which make sense they're 7-C cuz they're higher durability than they look whilst this proves they're more durable than their AP, and the Player w/ top tier enchanted armor is scaled higher than the Wither, Ender Dragon, Ravager and Iron Golem.

Saikou's blog says about TNT Explosion can destroy 287 blocks and then destroying the obsidian requires 71.25 times the explosive power of TNT to destroy a block of obsidian. I get:

(287000000 * 69) * 71.25 = 1410963750000 joules (Atleast 8-A for low-end) w/ V. Frag of Stone and if we don't take the "power" of explosion.

(287000000 * 214.35) * 71.25 = 4383189562500 joules (High 8-A for high-end) w/ Pulv of Stone and if we don't take the "power" of explosion.

215250000000 * 71.25 = 15336562500000 (7-C) w/ "power" and pulverization.

For AP:

Wither ramming/dash attack > Wither spawning = Player w/ non-enchanted diamond armor

Player w/ high tier enchanted full set of iron armor > Player w/ non-enchanted diamond armor

top tier diamond sword > Wither dash AP > blue skulls

Ender Dragon ramming AP > non-enchanted diamond sword

For DURA:

Player w/ top tier enchanted armor > Wither > Ender Dragon > Iron Golem = Ravager

For DURA and AP:

Ender Dragon Dura > Wither dash AP > blue skulls > Obsidian > Ender Dragon ramming AP

Though their durability was greater than AP and DC. The Late Game key must be scaled to Obsidian and Wither and Ender Dragon bossfights.

Their 8-B is based on surviving the Wither spawning.

PS. I think after my 3 replies above, it's too long so I will stop here, and the next reply will be I going to argue more about game interaction for @Idzami's arguments. Next time.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

were these revisions ever resolved? they seemed pretty important, so im bumping the thread.

bump.

 

[Idazmi]

were these revisions ever resolved? they seemed pretty important, so im bumping the thread.

bump.

We're getting a lot of obfuscation of matters here, and it's severely slowing things down.

 

[Bowser-us]

Bump

 

[Idazmi]

My stance here is basically the same: the Ender Dragon is not vaporizing or pulverizing the blocks it contacts because:

• Water has a specific particle effect for vaporization, and this effect doesn't occur when the Dragon (or Wither) destroys water blocks.
• The pulverization and vaporization of solid blocks in Minecraft (like stone) has very specific physics which the Ender Dragon just ignores.
• The Ender Dragon is completely unaffected by contact with any block: it just flies through them.
• The blocks are completely nonexistent after the Ender Dragon touches them.

These facts say to me that the blocks are simply vanishing. Whether this is recognized as an Existence Erasure feat or Game Mechanics, I don't think it should at all affect the Ender Dragon's tier listing, let alone all of the existing weapon and mob tiers like it currently does.

 

[RageComment]

Game Mechanics is a mess of an argument. A player with a wooden sword can damage the ender dragon (Game Mechanics) Ender Dragon can delete blocks it runs into (Applies to AP) Fully Enchanted Player can die from Fall Damage (Game Mechanics) Silverfish break blocks they infest (Applies to AP)

It seems like the rule is "If the feat makes the verse stronger, apply it, if not Game Mechanics)

Just my two cents on that.

But regarding the actual topic of this thread, I find it odd, because all of the Mobs in the game are rather relative to each other, many can survive attacks from each other, some just last longer than others. Unless this is chalked up to game mechanics.

 

[Idazmi]

Game Mechanics is a mess of an argument. A player with a wooden sword can damage the ender dragon (Game Mechanics) Ender Dragon can delete blocks it runs into (Applies to AP) Fully Enchanted Player can die from Fall Damage (Game Mechanics) Silverfish break blocks they infest (Applies to AP)

It seems like the rule is "If the feat makes the verse stronger, apply it, if not Game Mechanics)

Just my two cents on that.

But regarding the actual topic of this thread, I find it odd, because all of the Mobs in the game are rather relative to each other, many can survive attacks from each other, some just last longer than others. Unless this is chalked up to game mechanics.

Unfotunately, Game Mechanics are always going to be integral in Minecraft, just because that's how Minecraft is programmed. I mean, a wooden sword being able to harm an Iron Golem cannot be anything but Game Mechanics - the sword should realistically break against it's metal surface like a piece of sharpened wood. However, there is a limit to what can be explained by Game Mechanics, and baseline Diamond swords being listed as 7-C when they simply aren't anywhere near 7-C, is far beyond that point.

The only reason this is a thing, is because every single Minecraft AP has been reverse-engineered from the Ender Dragon's current 7-C rating, and that rating is based on a blatant programming workaround that's being falsely treated as an attack. Blatant shenanigans, with the clear goal of artificially inflating the verse.

 

[QrowBarr]

I mean

If we go by game mechanics then a Vindicator technically hits harder than a Ravager.

Just my thought.

 

[Bowser-us]

And Creeper is the strongest mob

 

[Idazmi]

I mean

If we go by game mechanics then a Vindicator technically hits harder than a Ravager.

Just my thought.

That can chalked up to the Vindicator's axe landing more solidly on the player than the Ravager's headbutt. Also, that's neither here nor there to the specific topic being discussed.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

bump

 

[Idazmi]

bump

 

[RageComment]

bump

 

[Idazmi]

bump

 

[Sans2345]

The withers and ender dragons town level tier makes no sense to me

 

[Sans2345]

Their tiers seem inaccurate and at best if they had a tier change it would likely be small building level

 

[Sans2345]

Minecraft Withers Destroy Village

The wither is able to destroy small buildings

 

[Idazmi]

The withers and ender dragons town level tier makes no sense to me

No one's been replying to this for awhile now. Not sure if it's a concession or a tactic to let the thread die before a conclusion is reached.

 

[EmbalmerMaster9000]

I personally don't have anything else to say aside from maybe suggesting possible calculation methods used to gauge the Wither's AP. I do agree that the Ender Dragon's block destruction should be environmental destruction through some specific hax of sorts given the various reasons above.

I've said this beforehand (unless someone replied to my statement on this, feel free to tell me it again because I likely forgot), if we can't decide on whether or not the ED's block destruction is environmental destruction and there's potential evidence that can be interpreted either way, then we simply add the ratings for the consistent feats we have determined for a replacement for the 7-C rating and a "possibly" rating for the 7-C thing (E.G, 8-B, possibly 7-C) OR the ratings for the consistent feats with a "possibly higher" rating that lists the Ender Dragon's potential destruction feat, but mention that there is evidence that suggests that there is a possibility of it being simply hax. Occam's razor can suggest it being some kind of physical capability (as the Ender Dragon hasn't been shown using hax of sorts to destroy blocks in the first place), but the lack of block particles and/or additional details (such as sounds or particles) to point out the blocks being specifically destroyed can suggest otherwise; as such, I believe the middle ground of "Tier without ED block Destruction, likely Tier with ED block Destruction" should work.

One thing I'm still agreeing on is that the ED doesn't vaporize stuff, that's the outlier-ish 7-C thing that Idzami has proven otherwise (water vaporizing in the Nether has particles and a sound effect suggesting it, the Ender Dragon doesn't do anything to point it out otherwise) and the fact that it seems to be a giant outlier by comparison to every other feat.

 

[Sans2345]

The withers and ender dragons town level tier makes no sense to me

No one's been replying to this for awhile now. Not sure if it's a concession or a tactic to let the thread die before a conclusion is reached.

For me the 7-C tier seems a bit like guess work the wither can destroy small buildings and the ender dragon can break blocks upon contact and destroy villages which is small buildings


9-A seems like the most accurate tier for the wither and the ender dragon thus far i think

 

[EmbalmerMaster9000]

The problem with that logic is that the wither's explosion can destroy a large quantity of stone and there are several other destruction feats akin to the wither's explosion feat that are on a lower level, but around it (the wither's explosion was calced at around 8-B in an earlier post in this thread). The player probably isn't capable of surviving it point-blank, but can most likely survive it at a distance (hence why inverse square law should be used to calculate the amount of energy the player is impacted with at a distance).

My idea is that we should use the calculated values for the explosions rather than just pull off guesswork and assume that it's 9-A via eyeballing alone.

 

[GyroNutz]

The player is capable of surviving it point-blank with good enough armour. In fact, I'm pretty sure full unenchanted diamond is enough to survive it point-blank.

 

[Idazmi]

The problem with that logic is that the wither's explosion can destroy a large quantity of stone and there are several other destruction feats akin to the wither's explosion feat that are on a lower level, but around it (the wither's explosion was calced at around 8-B in an earlier post in this thread). The player probably isn't capable of surviving it point-blank, but can most likely survive it at a distance (hence why inverse square law should be used to calculate the amount of energy the player is impacted with at a distance).

My idea is that we should use the calculated values for the explosions rather than just pull off guesswork and assume that it's 9-A via eyeballing alone.

With armor, the player can survive the Wither's attacks at point-blank: that's shown in the first post. I'd personally scale the Wither's AP to the amount of stone it can destroy with it's attacks: it destroys them by fragmentation.

 

[Idazmi]

bump

 

[MattadorProne]

bump

 

[DMB_1]

Bump

 

[Idazmi]

bump

 

[MattadorProne]

bump

 

[Davidgumazon]

@Zanny Hi back again. For more info the implication of blocks was no different from items or mobs or entity, since Magma blocks (block) was made from Magma Creams (item) which was dropped by Magma Cube (mob/entity)

"Ender Dragon's block destruction should be environmental destruction"

I'm kinda (a bit) agree to it however remember Ender Dragon only destroys non-End dimension materials and Ender Dragon could easily knock back Steve with full set of enchanted diamond/golden armor (even he's durable or heavy): knock back Steve so high enough to make someone mad just like this guy wants to downgrade Ender Dragon's knockback. Also Ender Dragon could still damage Steve with full set of enchanted diamond armor.

This ED's AP debate still on going yet to be solve. Seriously why no one (from my perspective) was able to notice or agree the fact that the Mobs/Entities/Players Durability were higher than AP. From my perspective the Explosion damage was more gamemechanics than Ender Dragon's DC.

Since I don't have internet I'm not much time to post replies. I think you'll see me next month(s). Sorry...