Megami Tensei LN Canonicity

[Hasty12345]

I have a question: presumably, copyright law is different around the world right? Do our canon standards as written accomodate to Japanese copyright law and how Japan treats canon in such cases like this?

personally, it seems the canon standards are too generalised to deal with this situation adequately.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Still, I think that lands it in the tertiary canon camp, and that the 1-A statement doesn't clear our hurdles for acceptable tertiary canon feats, by adding details to the cosmology (instead of a fight scene), and the original media being audiovisual (not text-based). While it is fine on the non-contradiction qualifier, that's not enough on its own.

Atlus gave their co-sign for Yu to use their IP and create a story based on the game setting. I haven't reviewed the rules yet but that is literally an official sign off from them to include the story under their umbrella.

I disagree. See Ultima's response to your regarding the shirt. The state of being described in the setting was regarding ontology. The novel provided the concrete descriptive terms that allow for 1-A scaling, but said ontological foundation already existed in MegaTen's cosmology.

• Statements for time and space being meaningless in the unconscious world.
• A character who exist as the literal archetype for all boundaries including dimensions, whose defeat would cause the ontological collapse of said differentiation.
• Consistent themes of those escaping Samsara becoming Buddha's and reaching an untethered state of reality where all is one.
• The unconscious world being one in which cannot be described using concepts such as coordinates.

and much more. This happened to be the supplementary canon that described it in a way that could verify what many already assumed of the archetypal world, but once again the ontology of the realm is legit 1 to 1 with other descriptions of the unconscious world of information.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I have a question: presumably, copyright law is different around the world right? Do our canon standards as written accomodate to Japanese copyright law and how Japan treats canon in such cases like this?

personally, it seems the canon standards are too generalised to deal with this situation adequately.

Aside from the DMCA, I not sure if the copyrights law for Japan can been applied to what being used in the canonicity page since it was never addressed if memories served right.

https://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf

 

[Agnaa]

Atlus gave their co-sign for Yu to use their IP and create a story based on the game setting. I haven't reviewed the rules yet but that is literally an official sign off from them to include the story under their umbrella.

Our page defines tertiary canon as "Official adaptations not overseen by the author", which is exactly what this sounds like. Atlus gave the rights for Yu to work on it without Atlus overseeing it and digging into drafts to veto things.

I disagree. See Ultima's response to your regarding the shirt. The state of being described in the setting was regarding ontology. The novel provided the concrete descriptive terms that allow for 1-A scaling, but said ontological foundation already existed in MegaTen's cosmology.

I don't understand what our difference is here. Our pages just literally do not allow that. It doesn't say "Tertiary canon can expand on ontological foundations to provide new higher descriptions of the cosmology."

You just keep bringing up supporting evidence from the games, which does not matter as those don't give 1-A on their own, and the actual 1-A evidence is not allowed by our standards for using things from tertiary canon. It's frustrating to bring up the rules for canonicity, and to be responded to with a wall of irrelevant cosmological information that's just supporting evidence for 1-A.

 

[PairusDragonoid]

Unless is not and fanfic, not autorized by Atlus, is canon for MT, either as the main universe or a separate yet still inside Megaten (games, LN, VW, Anime, manga, OVA, magazine, guide, CD drama, opera, live action, movie, etc)

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Just out of curiosity, does the novel in question has any differences from the later works and any works that precedes the light novel too?

 

[Agnaa]

Just out of curiosity, does the novel in question has any differences from the later works and any works that precedes the light novel too?

Some, but because the series prominently involves multiverse shenanigans it's hard to take that as a contradiction, and not just the story taking place in another timeline.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Some, but because the series prominently involves multiverse shenanigans it's hard to take that as a contradiction, and not just the story taking place in another timeline.

Multiverse Shenanigans is a pain, but in cases such as this in terms of Canonicity, we do unfortunately need WOG statements and/or others in-verse statements to address the canonicity issues to say the least. That reminds me that I might need to address the continuity and canonicity of the Nasuverse at some point.

 

[Agnaa]

Multiverse Shenanigans is a pain, but in cases such as this in terms of Canonicity, we do unfortunately need WOG statements and/or others in-verse statements to address the canonicity issues to say the least. That reminds me that I might need to address the continuity and canonicity of the Nasuverse at some point.

The only statement we have on it is the Western book publisher's advertising material saying that the books take place in the world of the games.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

The only statement we have on it is the Western book publisher's advertising material saying that the books take place in the world of the games.

The book taking the place in the world of the games does seem vague and unfortunately doesn’t completely address whatsoever that it is directly tied to the games or not.

Regardless, I am rather neutral to this thread overall.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Atlus gave their co-sign for Yu to use their IP and create a story based on the game setting. I haven't reviewed the rules yet but that is literally an official sign off from them to include the story under their umbrella.

Our page defines tertiary canon as "Official adaptations not overseen by the author", which is exactly what this sounds like. Atlus gave the rights for Yu to work on it without Atlus overseeing it and digging into drafts to veto things.

But both Yu and Atlus are the authors. The biggest difference is that Yu must defer to Atlus as the primary author for the IP. The Primary author of the story contractually allowed Yu to create spin-offs of her own work without the constraints of a game, utilizing the same setting and dynamic of the same characters.

Furthermore, ATLUS track record for working with subsidiaries does involve some sort of supervision. For example, the persona 1 manga was published by a company and author outside of Atlus. The authors actively suggested the author take steps away from the game's canon after the author's storyboards were too close to the game's. They also directly mention supervising the scripts of what is being used.

This light novel is the exact same form of canon as such, and in this case, we actually know details of the contractual arrangement.

Given Yu and Atlus being co-authors, given the official recognition of SMT trademark on the novel itself, given the publication directly discussing it taking place in the world of SMT (which they would not legally be able to claim if Yu's contract didn't allow for it).

I disagree. See Ultima's response to your regarding the shirt. The state of being described in the setting was regarding ontology. The novel provided the concrete descriptive terms that allow for 1-A scaling, but said ontological foundation already existed in MegaTen's cosmology.

I don't understand what our difference is here. Our pages just literally do not allow that. It doesn't say "Tertiary canon can expand on ontological foundations to provide new higher descriptions of the cosmology."

Actually, the page literally only discusses "feats". Feats are measurable phenomena that can be calculated to quantify the potency of said phenomena. That's not really transitive to a discussion about ontology which are descriptions about a state of being. So just like with Ultima's argument, all of these connected verses blatantly using the foundational ontology involve the same descriptions with some flavor here and there. Thus the "outside of the concept dimensions" sentence buried within the mounds of concurring evidence for the realm in the novel/games being the same across MT as a whole, is pretty darn incidental all things considered, albeit the specific verbiage needed for objective tiering on the site.

 

[Agnaa]

But both Yu and Atlus are the authors. The biggest difference is that Yu must defer to Atlus as the primary author for the IP. The Primary author of the story contractually allowed Yu to create spin-offs of her own work without the constraints of a game, utilizing the same setting and dynamic of the same characters.

I believe that "the author" means "the primary author", not "every single person who has ever written anything for it". And in cases where there isn't a clear primary author, it would just be the company. I wholly reject your characterization that Yu would count as "the author of the entire MT franchise" in this case.

Furthermore, ATLUS track record for working with subsidiaries does involve some sort of supervision. For example, the persona 1 manga was published by a company and author outside of Atlus. The authors actively suggested the author take steps away from the game's canon after the author's storyboards were too close to the game's. They also directly mention supervising the scripts of what is being used.

This light novel is the exact same form of canon as such, and in this case, we actually know details of the contractual arrangement.

I'd like to learn more about the circumstances of the manga's creation before you say it's the exact same form of canon.

More specifically, which party got the creation of the manga started. In Yu's case, it sounds like she requested the ability to write an LN, rather than Atlus directing and paying her to write an LN. I could easily imagine them having different levels of involvement and QA with something they allowed someone to make, and something they directed someone to make.

Given Yu and Atlus being co-authors

What do you mean by this? This would be a slam-dunk for canonicity if true, but the bentobooks page only lists Yu Godai as the author.

given the publication directly discussing it taking place in the world of SMT (which they would not legally be able to claim if Yu's contract didn't allow for it).

I'd like to stress that it's the western book publisher discussing that. I'd also point out that "takes place in the world of" can easily mean only a one-way relationship in terms of canonicity.

Actually, the page literally only discusses "feats". Feats are measurable phenomena that can be calculated to quantify the potency of said phenomena. That's not really transitive to a discussion about ontology which are descriptions about a state of being.

Wait, so you're saying that "Entirely new feats of tertiary canon should be disregarded" doesn't apply to statements about the size/nature of the cosmology because cosmological statements aren't feats? This just seems like grasping for a loophole.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

But both Yu and Atlus are the authors. The biggest difference is that Yu must defer to Atlus as the primary author for the IP. The Primary author of the story contractually allowed Yu to create spin-offs of her own work without the constraints of a game, utilizing the same setting and dynamic of the same characters.

I believe that "the author" means "the primary author", not "every single person who has ever written anything for it". And in cases where there isn't a clear primary author, it would just be the company. I wholly reject your characterization that Yu would count as "the author of the entire MT franchise" in this case.

Furthermore, ATLUS track record for working with subsidiaries does involve some sort of supervision. For example, the persona 1 manga was published by a company and author outside of Atlus. The authors actively suggested the author take steps away from the game's canon after the author's storyboards were too close to the game's. They also directly mention supervising the scripts of what is being used.

This light novel is the exact same form of canon as such, and in this case, we actually know details of the contractual arrangement.

I'd like to learn more about the circumstances of the manga's creation before you say it's the exact same form of canon.

It's specifically stated to be an adaption of the P1 game made by an unaffiliated author, and publishing company. Atlus has directly published other manga such as Tsumi no Batsu into Jump, but irregardless this form is not directly from Atlus but still supervised by them.

. In Yu's case, it sounds like she requested the ability to write an LN, rather than Atlus directing and paying her to write an LN.

That's wholly your interpretation though. Yu was never supposed to leave the SMT team, and her contract was obviously drawn up well before then when she first began working with them. So I'd wager it's far more likely that, given they scouted her and asked her to write the story in the first place instead of doing it in house, they split the difference for story rights specific to the game's plot, setting, and characters, and allowed her to be the one to write the adaptations as supplementary canon not confined by game narrative. This would also explain why Atlus never actually made additional supplementary material for the series despite them doing so with literally even game/series, even very obscure cases.

I could easily imagine them having different levels of involvement and QA with something they allowed someone to make, and something they directed someone to make.

I mean I feel we are getting pretty hypercritical here for what amounts to a case of, Yu legally had the rights to expand upon MT's DDS canon.

Given Yu and Atlus being co-authors

What do you mean by this? This would be a slam-dunk for canonicity if true, but the bentobooks page only lists Yu Godai as the author.

Yes, and Yu Goddai was only allowed to make these novels due to stipulations in her contract with ATLUS. Which means her rights fall under an employee of the parent company employing her. Meaning under Japanese law, they are the primary author of the content which is what Ultima explained earlier.

I'd like to stress that it's the western book publisher discussing that. I'd also point out that "takes place in the world of" can easily mean only a one-way relationship in terms of canonicity.

I don't really see how that is relevant tbh.

Yeah, that would be a fine argument if the basis of these novels didn't directly stem from a legal contract from Atlus allowing Yu to expand on their IP expressly. That context obviously completely tears down this notion, given that we also know she directly did contribute to primary canon and this contractual allowance is stemming directly from these co-authorial rights.

Wait, so you're saying that "Entirely new feats of tertiary canon should be disregarded" doesn't apply to statements about the size/nature of the cosmology because cosmological statements aren't feats? This just seems like grasping for a loophole.

No. I am saying the page discusses feats only. A feat is very specific phenomenon. You can describe a state of being many different ways and have them mean the same thing. Which is once again, why there is so much concurrence between all of the MT cosmology because it all shares the same foundational basis. The outside of the concept of dimension statements comes from an omniscient persons literally describing their experience as a being unbound in the unconscious. This is not some new feat. This is has been alluded to or outright shown in tons of different MT games, all with other supplementary evidence also boosting this notion. So yes, this isn't so much a "new feat" as it is "clarification on the specifics of the ontology of the unconscious in relation to spatial topography. "

 

[Agnaa]

It's specifically stated to be an adaption of the P1 game made by an unaffiliated author, and publishing company. Atlus has directly published other manga such as Tsumi no Batsu into Jump, but irregardless this form is not directly from Atlus but still supervised by them.

Is this what you mean by Tsumi no Batsu? Because that wiki page says that was published by ASCII Media Works, and looking at the wikipedia pages for ASCII Media Works and Atlus, I can't find a connection between the two that implies they're the same company.

That's wholly your interpretation though. Yu was never supposed to leave the SMT team, and her contract was obviously drawn up well before then when she first began working with them.

My bad, I didn't know the timeline at play.

So I'd wager it's far more likely that, given they scouted her and asked her to write the story in the first place instead of doing it in house, they split the difference for story rights specific to the game's plot, setting, and characters, and allowed her to be the one to write the adaptations as supplementary canon not confined by game narrative. This would also explain why Atlus never actually made additional supplementary material for the series despite them doing so with literally even game/series, even very obscure cases.

Now I'm getting really confused. This sounds like from the start, before either of them planned to have her write LNs for it, she was given the authority to be able to write LNs without Atlus' input. Which would mean it's no longer tertiary canon, because it's not really an official adaptation then. It sounds like it's not like they could've taken the rights back, even if they wanted to.

I mean I feel we are getting pretty hypercritical here for what amounts to a case of, Yu legally had the rights to expand upon MT's DDS canon.

Just because two separate authors have legal rights to write in a setting, does not mean they each intend for their settings to be canon to each other.

Yes, and Yu Goddai was only allowed to make these novels due to stipulations in her contract with ATLUS. Which means her rights fall under an employee of the parent company employing her. Meaning under Japanese law, they are the primary author of the content which is what Ultima explained earlier.

I don't understand what your point with this is. Especially when I was responding to your claim that Atlus was a co-author of the novel, by saying that Atlus wasn't...

I don't really see how that is relevant tbh.

Because you are trying to establish that the games treat the novels as canon, by using the novels treating the game as canon as evidence.

Yeah, that would be a fine argument if the basis of these novels didn't directly stem from a legal contract from Atlus allowing Yu to expand on their IP expressly. That context obviously completely tears down this notion, given that we also know she directly did contribute to primary canon and this contractual allowance is stemming directly from these co-authorial rights.

Her being allowed to write more doesn't tell us what the games consider to be canon. Her being allowed to write more and writing that the novels consider the games to be canon does not mean that the games consider the novels to be canon.

No. I am saying the page discusses feats only. A feat is very specific phenomenon. You can describe a state of being many different ways and have them mean the same thing.

You say "No you're not" and then do exactly what I said you were doing.

So yes, this isn't so much a "new feat" as it is "clarification on the specifics of the ontology of the unconscious in relation to spatial topography. "

Sure you can try to word salad your way around it. You could say that a statement in tertiary canon explaining that a character's existence erasure also erases the victim's soul/concept, and spin it as if it's just a clarification and totally not a new feat. But that's just digging for a loophole. I am wholly against letting cosmological descriptions bypass these checks.

EDIT: More importantly, it doesn't just say "Entirely new feats aren't allowed", it says "Entirely new feats aren't allowed. Details added to existing fight scenes when the primary canon is text-based can be accepted." This should make it abundantly clear that cosmological details aren't allowed. And it should make it abundantly clear that, as a visual-based medium is the primary canon while a text-based medium is the tertiary canon, no expansions on any details would be allowed.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

It's specifically stated to be an adaption of the P1 game made by an unaffiliated author, and publishing company. Atlus has directly published other manga such as Tsumi no Batsu into Jump, but irregardless this form is not directly from Atlus but still supervised by them.

Is this what you mean by Tsumi no Batsu? Because that wiki page says that was published by ASCII Media Works, and looking at the wikipedia pages for ASCII Media Works and Atlus, I can't find a connection between the two that implies they're the same company.

That's wholly your interpretation though. Yu was never supposed to leave the SMT team, and her contract was obviously drawn up well before then when she first began working with them.

My bad, I didn't know the timeline at play.

So I'd wager it's far more likely that, given they scouted her and asked her to write the story in the first place instead of doing it in house, they split the difference for story rights specific to the game's plot, setting, and characters, and allowed her to be the one to write the adaptations as supplementary canon not confined by game narrative. This would also explain why Atlus never actually made additional supplementary material for the series despite them doing so with literally even game/series, even very obscure cases.

Now I'm getting really confused. This sounds like from the start, before either of them planned to have her write LNs for it, she was given the authority to be able to write LNs without Atlus' input. Which would mean it's no longer tertiary canon, because it's not really an official adaptation then. It sounds like it's not like they could've taken the rights back, even if they wanted to.

I mean I feel we are getting pretty hypercritical here for what amounts to a case of, Yu legally had the rights to expand upon MT's DDS canon.

Just because two separate authors have legal rights to write in a setting, does not mean they each intend for their settings to be canon to each other.

Yes, and Yu Goddai was only allowed to make these novels due to stipulations in her contract with ATLUS. Which means her rights fall under an employee of the parent company employing her. Meaning under Japanese law, they are the primary author of the content which is what Ultima explained earlier.

I don't understand what your point with this is. Especially when I was responding to your claim that Atlus was a co-author of the novel, by saying that Atlus wasn't...

I don't really see how that is relevant tbh.

Because you are trying to establish that the games treat the novels as canon, by using the novels treating the game as canon as evidence.

Yeah, that would be a fine argument if the basis of these novels didn't directly stem from a legal contract from Atlus allowing Yu to expand on their IP expressly. That context obviously completely tears down this notion, given that we also know she directly did contribute to primary canon and this contractual allowance is stemming directly from these co-authorial rights.

Her being allowed to write more doesn't tell us what the games consider to be canon. Her being allowed to write more and writing that the novels consider the games to be canon does not mean that the games consider the novels to be canon.

No. I am saying the page discusses feats only. A feat is very specific phenomenon. You can describe a state of being many different ways and have them mean the same thing.

You say "No you're not" and then do exactly what I said you were doing.

So yes, this isn't so much a "new feat" as it is "clarification on the specifics of the ontology of the unconscious in relation to spatial topography. "

Sure you can try to word salad your way around it. You could say that a statement in tertiary canon explaining that a character's existence erasure also erases the victim's soul/concept, and spin it as if it's just a clarification and totally not a new feat. But that's just digging for a loophole. I am wholly against letting cosmological descriptions bypass these checks.

Thanks for responding, I will respond tomorrow afternoon.

 

[Sevil Natas]

I agree with ultima here.

 

[Naito-desu]

tfw the only real contribution you make into a CRT is an agree train

 

[Lonkitt]

tfw the only real contribution you make into a CRT is an agree train

Nothing wrong with that. User input is very important, especially if you're a knowledgeable member.

 

[Hykuu]

After going through the thread, I'm definitely leaning towards Agnaa's position. It's not that clear that this isn't just a form of loophole with the wording in the "Canon" page being exploited. I'll wait for White's response, though.

Also, can we please be a bit more charitable and patient? Like 8 different people agreed to Ultima's post before Agnaa even responded. Give the guy a chance, lol.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Also, can we please be a bit more charitable and patient? Like 8 different people agreed to Ultima's post before Agnaa even responded. Give the guy a chance, lol.

I mean they had a back and forth at this point and Agnaa literally has the last word at the moment so I think people can decide who they agree with or change their opinion.

Also, going for Ultima's reasons since myself and the other verse supporters discussed the canonicity of this a while back.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Following and i think the case here is that secondary canon has a 1A statement but low 1C from primary canon suddenly gets 1A cause of a statement from secondary canon, so yes i see the point here
and tbh i dont like the bs reactive evolution that makes 5D become 1A cause they fought a 1A, if you want i can give you reasons why it is BS in the first place aside that we are all good

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Also, can we please be a bit more charitable and patient? Like 8 different people agreed to Ultima's post before Agnaa even responded. Give the guy a chance, lol.

You do realize the people who agreed were in a discord helping him make said response, right?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Following and i think the case here is that secondary canon has a 1A statement but low 2C from primary canon suddenly gets 1A cause of a statement from secondary canon, so yes i see the point here

I also have no clue what you’re talking about. What exactly is Low 2-C? And let’s not derail and bring hax into this, completely irrelevant.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I also have no clue what you’re talking about. What exactly is Low 2-C? And let’s not derail and bring hax into this, completely irrelevant.

i meant low 1C, and it is not derailing

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

i meant low 1C, and it is not derailing

It would be 1-C if it wasn’t canon.

And, yeah, it is derailing. RE/AC has… no correspondence to the novels, all the scans come from the game & manga proper. I don’t see why it’s relevant.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

This is the first time I'm hearing about the LN being officially licensed, even after asking Ultima for any official endorsement of it. What's your source on that?

I didn't bring up the Wikipedia page as evidence, I'd appreciate leaving other people's arguments out of it and just sticking to mine.

I shouldn't say, licensed, but rather contracted. It was contracted for her to make the visual novel in her original contract when she was writing for the game.

https://www.rpgfan.com/feature/rpgf...aga-avatar-tuner-volume-1-reflections-review/

This article mentions it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think debating Canon when it comes to series with explicit "Anything Goes" Multiverse policies gets silly.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think debating Canon when it comes to series with explicit "Anything Goes" Multiverse policies gets silly.

I would say that validating anything as canon because "there's a multiverse" is much sillier.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I would say that validating anything as canon because "there's a multiverse" is much sillier.

That's not exactly what he meant, but agreed.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I would say that validating anything as canon because "there's a multiverse" is much sillier.

I think comparing a primary canon author who had legal rights to expand upon the megami setting based on a mix of atlus and her IP being compared to “anything” is even more silly.

 

[Urshani]

I think comparing a primary canon author who had legal rights to expand upon the megami setting based on a mix of atlus and her IP being compared to “anything” is even more silly.

^

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Let’s simply wait for White’s response.

 

[Antvasima]

@SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Wokistan @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000

Would any of you be willing to evaluate Agnaa's and Ultima's arguments above please?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I think comparing a primary canon author who had legal rights to expand upon the megami setting based on a mix of atlus and her IP being compared to “anything” is even more silly.

I mean if this is of course assuming it is primary canon as I do have a few questions.

1. Did this LN came before the games or after the games?
2. Is the LN being treated as secondary canon or tertiary canon?

Because this could been resolved as simply being secondary canon since it seems to being treated as taken place in the continuity of the games to being specific while vague, does give the impression it might been used in this case if the games are being treated as the main primary canon in the grand scheme after all.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think comparing a primary canon author who had legal rights to expand upon the megami setting based on a mix of atlus and her IP being compared to “anything” is even more silly.

I didn't talk about Megamin Tensei at all. I just responded to a comment about stuff in general.

Not motivated enough to deal with shady materials and ratings.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I mean if this is of course assuming it is primary canon as I do have a few questions.

1. Did this LN came before the games or after the games?
2. Is the LN being treated as secondary canon or tertiary canon?

Because this could been resolved as simply being secondary canon since it seems to being treated as taken place in the game’s continuity to being specific which while vague, does give the impression it might been used in this case if the games are being treated as the main primary canon in the grand scheme after all.

1.) It came after the games. When drawing up the contract Atlus allowed Yu rights over their IP (characters, setting, etc) in order to make novels in the setting for the future, given Yu was an up and coming novelist and created the skeleton for the DDS: Avatar Tuner Game.
2.) Based on what I saw on the canon page it could be argued to be secondary canon. It's at the very least tertiary canon, but once again, Yu is the credited storyboarder in addition to one single Atlus employee who worked with her to turn her drafts into a story that jives with a game setting (silent protag, leaving stuff for the players to choose, etc.). Given that she was legally given permission by the parent company of the IP, and said Primary canon (the video game the novels came from) literally came from her head, I don't really see how it could be any more canon for supplementary material.

I didn't talk about Megamin Tensei at all. I just responded to a comment about stuff in general.

Not motivated enough to deal with shady materials and ratings.

So you decided to make a comment that was completely devoid of the clear context of his comment? For what reason?

Also appreciate it if you drop the "shady" qualifier as this rating has already been approved by several trusted members and staff. This whole post reeks of bias, so please refrain from de-railing the thread which future comments of a similar nature.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I will be responding to Agnaa after I settle from work.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

1.) It came after the games. When drawing up the contract Atlus allowed Yu rights over their IP (characters, setting, etc) in order to make novels in the setting for the future, given Yu was an up and coming novelist and created the skeleton for the DDS: Avatar Tuner Game.
2.) Based on what I saw on the canon page it could be argued to be secondary canon. It's at the very least tertiary canon, but once again, Yu is the credited storyboarder in addition to one single Atlus employee who worked with her to turn her drafts into a story that jives with a game setting (silent protag, leaving stuff for the players to choose, etc.). Given that she was legally given permission by the parent company of the IP, and said Primary canon (the video game the novels came from) literally came from her head, I don't really see how it could be any more canon for supplementary material.

So you decided to make a comment that was completely devoid of the clear context of his comment? For what reason?

Also appreciate it if you drop the "shady" qualifier as this rating has already been approved by several trusted members and staff. This whole post reeks of bias, so please refrain from de-railing the thread which future comments of a similar nature.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I will be responding to Agnaa after I settle from work.

Hmmm if the LN is a adaptation from the games themselves, then it can definitely qualify for secondary canon rather than tertiary canon in my opinion.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I think comparing a primary canon author who had legal rights to expand upon the megami setting based on a mix of atlus and her IP being compared to “anything” is even more silly.

In regards to this, I think it is more akin to how verses that has multiverse involved having everything is connected to one another ie. Every works being connected to one such as ones that precedes them and vice versa. Nasuverse is one such case(s) as it is pretty much a composite verse in its entirety and I believe Pokemon too.

I would say that validating anything as canon because "there's a multiverse" is much sillier.

Well, tbf there are WOG statements that address the canonicity issue in certain verses such as in the case of the Nasuverse.

However, there is also Dragon Ball which isn’t a single continuity, but more than one continuity and same applies for Transformers too (the latter also have a multiverse, but has different continuities to begin with)

But enough derailing since this can been addressed in a thread… Hmm perhaps a staff discussion and/or QnA will do.

 

[PairusDragonoid]

Yu Godai was hired for the creation of DDS:AT, but given that she got sick she had to leave the project when it was half done (speaking in gameplay as concepts as in lore / history), later she could finish it but in format of LN since by then Atlus continued with the project after his departure.

Basically, DDS: AT the game not only uses the skeleton and ideas that Yu Godai had prepared, but concepts that are already deeper but adapted to an RPG game (not just a skeleton as mentioned by some places or users).

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Yu Godai was hired for the creation of DDS:AT, but given that she got sick she had to leave the project when it was half done (speaking in gameplay as concepts as in lore / history), later she could finish it but in format of LN since by then Atlus continued with the project after his departure.

Basically, DDS: AT the game not only uses the skeleton and ideas that Yu Godai had prepared, but concepts that are already deeper but adapted to an RPG game (not just a skeleton as mentioned by some places or users).

Hmmm, is there evidence that point to this?

As mentioned, if the LN is a adaptation of a game(s), then it will qualify as secondary canon rather than tertiary canon as at that point, the OP’s argument can been refuted in that way as such.