• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Medaka Box "The Hero"

Status
Not open for further replies.
Firephoenixearl

Firephoenixearl

20,504
1,587
I am just gonna link the thread where The Hero was first added/proposed/explained to save myself the effort of explaining it agai.

So some time ago, this "ability" was removed. The argument for its removal was:

It is just something they have by virtue of being "main characters" so by that logic every main character ever would get this.

And

It is not even an ability in verse

This is a pretty flawed way of thinking as we do not give this strictly because they're main characters. The verse gives this as a virtue of being a main character, it is stated rather openly by characters that "i cannot win because she is a main character" and "there are always people like that every 1000 years". It's not something she acknowledges as a skill, it is something she acknowledges as a trait though. Considering she even calls her "The-No-Way-She'd-Lose-Because-She's-The-Hero". And to top it all off, the verse acknowledges those things to such extent that "not having those" is a skill on its ow.

As for things regarding The Hero, well. First is Iihiko, who Ajimu specifically stated that is the first "hero" she fought and couldn't win against. Other things, that should be The Hero's doing: Medaka wining a fight against an equal through "friendship". When she was sealed by bookmaker. Which almost perfectly fits with Ajimu's idea of "main character". And considering the kind of stuff Medaka later pulls off fit these "main character tropes" pretty perfectly:

(In brackets will be which trope mentioned by ajimu fits the case)

  • Medaka running into Kumagawa ripping Ajimu's face off. (You won't get caught up in a murder)
  • Medaka surviving the first fight against Iihiko, just because Iihiko decided not to chase after them. (You won't be spared by the whim of your enemy)
  • Medaka pulling off the Abnormal Luck feat with the code. (You won't be told you have the luck of the devil).
  • Medaka coming up with the Style to revive herself and come up with the way to defeat Iihiko. (When all is lost you won't come up with a strategy to turn the tables).
I could probably find more cases if i re-read the series and pointed them out, but it will just be a waste of time. I believe we can get the point for now. And to put the nail in the coffin, the only time Medaka "lost" was specifically because of Devil Style.

So i believe these are all i had to say. The Hero imo should just come back, it's a pretty cut and dry trait that Medaka Box acknowledges and has shown proof of it being legit, besides Plot Manipulation exists already and we already have characters with stuff like passive plot manip.
 
Seems fine to me. Abnormals in general even have ridiculous luck in-verse, like always getting all six on dice, or being able to just guess codes on the first try. She seems to basically be that on steroids.
 
I didn't understood why it was removed either .

Passive and uncounscious plot manip seems to match what "the hero" can do .

The other time were medaka lost , was against another user of "The Hero" , Iihiko ; iirc
 
Here we go again, I agree with this tho.

Also wouldn't Kamone have something similar?
 
YuriAkuto said:
Here we go again, I agree with this tho.
Also wouldn't Kamone have something similar?
Click to expand...
By his words he's "the person closest to the main character". Not a main character though. Besides, he was never mentioned of having anything similar nor did he show anything like that. Considering he was bodied by Papa Styles.
 
I don't see why this was taken off in the first place. It is clearly an ability in verse and there is no reason to think that just because a person is an MC in their verse that would mean they would have The Hero in a match up against a Medaka Box character as they don't have that ability applied to them in their own verse unlike Medaka or Lihiko.
 
Dienomite22 said:
I don't see why this was taken off in the first place. It is clearly an ability in verse and there is no reason to think that just because a person is an MC in their verse that would mean they would have The Hero in a match up against a Medaka Box character as they don't have that ability applied to them in their own verse unlike Medaka or Lihiko.
Click to expand...
  • Iihiko
No "L".
 
This seems to make sense to me, but you should ask Agnaa and other staff members for help, including the ones who were involved the last time.
 
I already asked Agnaa. As for other staff members. Most people who were last time, were not knowledgeable on Medaka Box, so idk.
 
It's this agai

Other things, that should be The Hero's doing: Medaka wining a fight against an equal through "friendship". When she was sealed by bookmaker.

Saying that this was won because of "friendship" is such a misleading way of framing things. It was repeatedly said (4 or 5 times) that while Bookmaker made them the same in most areas, there was still one difference. Kumagawa was being cheered on by his friends, while Medaka was being cheered on by her friends and her enemies. This was something that Bookmaker explicitly didn't make the same and was said to be relevant to the battle.

For you to ignore this explanation and just go "lol it was friendship, that's what main characters do" is bullshit.

She meets the tropes

Wow, in a series that parodies shounen tropes, shounen tropes happen!?!? This isn't proof that it's an ability in-verse. And as an aside, I wouldn't consider the first or third things legitimate. The first isn't a murder, and the third is because of her luck, something that every abnormal has which isn't limited to heroes. A lot of those other tropes can also apply to characters in Medaka Box who aren't "Heroes".

And to put the nail in the coffin, the only time Medaka "lost" was specifically because of Devil Style.

If you exclude the time Medaka lost to Momo Momozono, and the time that Medaka lost to Iihiko. Medaka's also pretty awful at music, but I guess she never entered the tournament so she never "lost" there.

So i believe these are all i had to say. The Hero imo should just come back, it's a pretty cut and dry trait that Medaka Box acknowledges

Characters in Medaka Box acknowledge it but all of them took it to be a metaphor, except for Ajimu, who's entire arc hinges on this belief being a false belief caused by her not thinking that the world's real. Even to the end of the series they're mentioning stuff like how Iihiko's extreme strength probably fueled her delusion, so it's no surprised that Iihiko's the first "one of these people" that Ajimu found.

and has shown proof of it being legit

Your proof of it being legit is:

  • A character who's arc is that their belief that it's legit is delusional.
  • The fact that a fate/luck null ability exists.
  • That this delusional character described another person as having the ability.
  • Medaka won a fight through legitimate means in a way which sounds kinda like main character tropes that you've heard before but are never mentioned in story.
  • A few things Medaka has done line up with 4 main character tropes that are mentioned in the story.
@InfiniteSped They're not describing this as luck though, they're taking this as plot manip.
 
This looks controversial based off the last thread linked above, so I think you should indeed contact the ones opposed to it. Wether they're knowledgeable or not about the verse doesn't really matter if the evidence is there.
 
Medaka Box also has a lot of talk of heroes which is obviously not related to any potential ability.

Hinokage is a hero, Kamome is a dark hero, Iihiko failed to become a hero, Iihiko isn't a hero because a hero has someone to protect, yet Iihiko is a hero to the death, because he adjusts in the blink of an eye. Also, one of your scans includes Ajimu saying that she made Zenkichi the main character of the flask pla, so Ajimu can just make people main characters? Even though this is supposedly some hax ability that comes around every 1000 years that she can't overcome?

We also know from one of the novels that Ajimu was trying to make Kumagawa a hero at one point.

Reducing the talk of heroes to just being a plot manip ability is a really blind way of looking at the series. It tackles those sorts of themes all the time, just because one character links these things to why someone's unbeatable (who turns out to be wrong), doesn't mean we should treat it as an ability.
 
>Medaka was cheered by friends

>Saying she won because of friendship is misleading.

Having more people cheer you doesn't make you win an equal fight Agnaa.

If you exclude the time Medaka lost to Momo Momozono, and the time that Medaka lost to Iihiko. Medaka's also pretty awful at music, but I guess she never entered the tournament so she never "lost" there.

DId she really lose though? Pretty sure she did not lose. She literally controlled the whole game. As for Iihiko, he was a hero too.

Characters in Medaka Box acknowledge it but all of them took it to be a metaphor, except for Ajimu, who's entire arc hinges on this belief being a false belief caused by her not thinking that the world's real. Even to the end of the series they're mentioning stuff like how Iihiko's extreme strength probably fueled her delusion, so it's no surprised that Iihiko's the first "one of these people" that Ajimu found.

Yet Zenkichi did acknowledge that that very same style did beat Medaka. And again, "hinges on false beliefs". That's only from other people's perspective, who do believe the world is real, taking it from a neutral point, Ajimu is correct in every single thing that she says. I do not see how fodder calling Ajimu for being sick, makes it a fact that she's mentally sick. Again, Ajimu has yet to say something wrong. As for Iihiko being the first, there is still the fact that Ajimu considers Iihiko strong because of being a main character similar to Medaka. The only reason we say differently for medaka is cus Ajimu already said she has 1 skill which would deal with Medaka, however she never said she has no way past Iihiko's ID. The only thing she did say is that Iihiko is a hero. And there have supposedly been several (3) people between Iihiko and Medaka that Ajimu couldn't win against, so take that into account.

About the rest:

  • Delusional from other people's perspective. As i said, above, Ajimu is the only correct one. Many people calling her that, doesn't change the facts. They do not perceive the world like she does.
  • Yes and said ability worked against The Hero.
  • 5 people in total as having the ability.
  • Said trope is literally mentioned by Ajimu to be a "main character" thing.
  • Yes, mentioned in the story as being "main character tropes".
 
Agnaa said:
Medaka Box also has a lot of talk of heroes which is obviously not related to any potential ability.
Hinokage is a hero, Kamome is a dark hero, Iihiko failed to become a hero, Iihiko isn't a hero because a hero has someone to protect, yet Iihiko is a hero to the death, because he adjusts in the blink of an eye. Also, one of your scans includes Ajimu saying that she made Zenkichi the main character of the flask pla, so Ajimu can just make people main characters? Even though this is supposedly some hax ability that comes around every 1000 years that she can't overcome?

We also know from one of the novels that Ajimu was trying to make Kumagawa a hero at one point.
Click to expand...
All of those are from normal characters. Ajimu is clearly the only one who knows of this. Considering everyone called her insane for saying those, everyone is using "hero" in a figurative way. And Ajimu usually specifically uses the term "main character" rather than hero, when talking about people with the ability.

No she can't make people "main characters", she can guide them to become one. She doesn't just "bibbidi bobbidi bum" and makes someone a main character. That's why Zenkichi's ability choice was important cus it would be choices like that that would lead to Zenkichi being an MC.
 
I don't have a lot of time to argue, but I'll pick out a few things, and clarify some others.

Hinokage is a hero in a different context, and that seems more a reference to his skill, Unknown Hero. Iihiko didn't fail to become a hero, he lost his hero status (we will get to that later). The "hero to the death" thing is in reference to his adaption ability being one of his "proof of worths", which are things that are emblematic of heros or candidates of them.

But anyway, I agree with Agnaa, sort of. The Hero is far more nuanced than just passive plot manipulation for protection. Heros can lose on the lower scale, they just cannot lose on the grander scale, and the kind of hero matters as well. Kamome, for example, is a dark hero so he doesn't really get plot armor. If we are going to have the hero on the profile, VS matches need to be more than just "ha ha they can't counter plot manip it's a stomp."

Passive sleep manip? Medaka can get up and continue her quest, so she can be defeated by this. Erasing her from existence and making sure she can never recover? Nah, there is no way she could recover so the plot protects her. Medaka is more likely to be defeated in a duel at the risk of losing her hands than she is a in a dual to lose her student council position.

Also, and this is very important. In the context of a VS match, if their win conditions require them to do something too unheroic then that will nullify their protection from The Hero. At its core, The Hero is a status that is granted to those that are "interesting", and although it comes with benefits, it is not an ability in the usual sense
 
this can be interpreted as both 4th breaking thing as "the plot" not allowing the main character to lose and the characters being aware of this, or the main characters "warping the plot" to have always their way.

First thing is just 4th wall breaking.

Second thing is passive plot manipulation.

When it was first approved it was considered the latter. When it was removed, the former.
 
Having more people cheer you doesn't make you win an equal fight Agnaa.

When the series explicitly, multiple times over, says that it is, we believe the text, not your prior conceptions when they're never ever implied.

DId she really lose though? Pretty sure she did not lose. She literally controlled the whole game. As for Iihiko, he was a hero too.

I meant when all her friends got sealed and there was nothing she could do about it, not about the game later.

taking it from a neutral point, Ajimu is correct in every single thing that she says.

No she isn't. She doesn't have any meta fourth-wall knowledge for believing the world is fake. She explicitly believes the world is fake because she's powerful. It's a logical conclusion based on her strength, not based on outside knowledge she has. She wants to prove that the world is real by finding something impossible, which doesn't make sense if she has fourth-wall knowledge.

Again, Ajimu has yet to say something wrong.

I don't know what you mean by this.

The only thing she did say is that Iihiko is a hero.

Ajimu never really said that. Ajimu said that every 1000 years there's someone she can't beat and that calling them a main character is a metaphor, and later when Iihiko was seen Ajimu said she failed to beat this person 5000 years ago, which gave Medaka a flashback to this scene.

The implication is sorta there, but still, Ajimu never said that.

To nail the bullet points at the end, again:

  • Ajimu does not perceive the world in a special way. This is never stated and there's many pieces of evidence going against that.
  • Sure.
  • Sure.
  • I don't remember Ajimu saying that winning because of friendship is a main character thing.
  • Yes, but other characters meet those tropes too who aren't main characters, and far from all of them were hit by Medaka. It seems like more of a coincidence of storytelling about storytelling.
All of those are from normal characters.

Uhh, no they aren't. This one is from Ajimu.

And Ajimu usually specifically uses the term "main character" rather than hero, when talking about people with the ability.

I'm 99% sure that she uses both. But for Ajimu talking about "main character"s, she says some things that don't seem to line up with The Hero being passive insta-win plothax. She agrees with Maguro that if two main characters fight, the one who is more "main" will wi, so is Iihiko more main than Medaka? The text doesn't seem to treat things that way. Ajimu also says that main characters have different chances of winning in different genres, hence why she changed the genre. Ajimu also notes the phenomena where main characters can more easily lost to supporting characters in elections.

This seems more like metacommentary rather than the ability you're framing it as.

No she can't make people "main characters", she can guide them to become one. She doesn't just "bibbidi bobbidi bum" and makes someone a main character. That's why Zenkichi's ability choice was important cus it would be choices like that that would lead to Zenkichi being an MC.

Sure but, like I said, guiding people to be main characters doesn't make a lot of sense when main characters supposedly just come up with this hax ability every 1000 years.

Iihiko didn't fail to become a hero, he lost his hero status (we will get to that later).

Sure, but I was just kinda quoting the text there.
 
@Earl

No, no I am not. If Ajimu wins against her using any of those then she will kick Medaka out of the student council, thus she wouldn't be allowed to defeat her with those. "The Hero" is heavily context based. If Medaka and Ajimu just dueled for fun, then (this is my idea, It would be interesting if you all disagree) Ajimu would be able to beat Medaka
 
To state my personal opinion on the Hero: While the idea of the trait is to represent the main character status there is no reliable evidence that it is passive plot manipulation.

In my opinion it is Supernatural Luck that simulates PIS. Nothing more. In particular, only because the idea alludes to meta-fictional ideas it isn't plot manipulation.

According to its inventor the Devil Style has only exactly one effect and that is to eliminate coincidence. And the Devil Style explicitly negates the "main character" power.

If The Hero can be nullified by nullifying all coincidence (Luck), then it must be probability based. And passive positive probability manipulation is supernatural luck. Ajimu even says that the hero is "just really lucky".


So while The Hero is clearly supposed to allude to main character tropes, that's not how it works in universe.
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
@Earl

No, no I am not. If Ajimu wins against her using any of those then she will kick Medaka out of the student council, thus she wouldn't be allowed to defeat her with those. "The Hero" is heavily context based. If Medaka and Ajimu just dueled for fun, then (this is my idea, It would be interesting if you all disagree) Ajimu would be able to beat Medaka
Click to expand...
Ya calling war on us? Ovo

Though that's directly contradicted by ajimu herself.

I will get to agnaa tomorrow.
 
Oh yeah, going with what DT said, I could agree with Medaka & Iihiko just having insanely good luck, and with certain situations being feats of that.

From what I've seen Medaka's/Iihiko's luck is never really accounted for in matches, despite it having pretty insane feats.
 
A whim of fate is just another way to say luck. Fate can be considered as the combination of random outcomes towards a certain end result. There's a reason why one type of Fate Manipulation listed on its page is probability manipulation.

Similarly one can for instance call a "Mircale" a very unlikely event, while in other context it can mean different things. In context of Ajimu's explanation she clearly means it as low probability event, though.


Also notice how all the applications that are negated which Ajimu lists are things that are theoretically possible, even if unlikely. It all fits together.
 
Ok 1 last question before agreeing.

What about medaka beating ajimu. Since she should have no feasible way of doing so.
 
I dunno about that one, since we never saw it happen. It's hard to tell how it would have manifested.

There's a lot of stuff that I'm not super keen on accepting, but which would point against Ajimu being unable to beat Medaka. Ajimu could have traveled through time, or altered history, or used her omniscience to defeat Medaka/Iihiko in the past.

Even if we just go with stuff that Ajimu has really solid statements/feats about, it's hard to tell exactly how Medaka would have won if Ajimu had her unconscious with her unnamed skill.

Maybe Medaka would have woken up, maybe she would have never been affected in the first place, maybe Medaka would fight in her sleep, maybe Ajimu deciding not to fight Medaka is part of the luck, etc etc... I might be fine with "Ajimu doesn't think she can beat Medaka even with all her skills disabled because of her main character-ness" being included as a feat as long as that isn't used in threads. I feel like there's other "what the **** does this even mean in an actual battle" abilities we treat like this, but her other luck feats/descriptions should still be valid.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Agnaa
Ajimu Upgrade Undo
Replies
28
Views
2K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Magicomethkuon
  • Locked
Ajimu Najimi Upgrade
Replies
38
Views
4K
Magicomethkuon
Magicomethkuon
Potemkat
  • Locked
Medaka Box changes
2 3 4
Replies
120
Views
8K
Antvasima
Antvasima
PaxCruento
Minor additions to Medaka Kurokami
Replies
1
Views
961
Agnaa
Agnaa
Ajimu hax addtion
Replies
33
Views
2K
Agnaa
Agnaa
Back
Top