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Medaka Box "The Hero"

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After discussing it with agnaa seems pretty fair to have it just.... even more supernatural luck.

It would answer all the cases.
 
Yeah, I think we need to better recognize Medaka's already accepted probability feats (passively manifesting one in a trillion chances) and add stuff like these to her kit. Having enemy's special attacks miss vital areas, coming up with important strategies when necessary, etc. I would like to include "being spared on a whim" but I don't think that fits with SBA requiring both opponents to go for the kill.
 
DontTalkDT said:
To state my personal opinion on the Hero: While the idea of the trait is to represent the main character status there is no reliable evidence that it is passive plot manipulation.
In my opinion it is Supernatural Luck that simulates PIS. Nothing more. In particular, only because the idea alludes to meta-fictional ideas it isn't plot manipulation.

According to its inventor the Devil Style has only exactly one effect and that is to eliminate coincidence. And the Devil Style explicitly negates the "main character" power.

If The Hero can be nullified by nullifying all coincidence (Luck), then it must be probability based. And passive positive probability manipulation is supernatural luck. Ajimu even says that the hero is "just really lucky".


So while The Hero is clearly supposed to allude to main character tropes, that's not how it works in universe.
Click to expand...
Ajimu herself portrays and describes it as such. If you want to get technical, then its similar to Joji's Beyond; Its technically Fate/Probability Manip that works so close to plot manip that its indistinguishable in any meaningful way, and thus should be described as Plot manip, as we have done in other cases like this

"Alludes" is heavily understating it. Ajimu outright states why and how she cannot win, and heavily leans on the idea of plot armor in all but name. Supernatural Luck isn't enough to deal with the thing The Hero has done, like randomly giving Medaka a power up when she was against an enemy she couldn't defeat.

First off, Ajimu isn't the one who invented Devil Style, but that's beside the point. And either way, it nullified Coincidence, but the coincidences it negates are brought about via plot manip or fate manip. It doesn't need to exclusively be around probability. Besides, if all it took was nullifying a modification of odds to stop The Hero, then Choujabaru's Abnormality would have been enough.

Nullifying Coincidence and Nullifying Luck in this context aren't the same thing. Ajimu calls the hero really lucky, but as that is the case for all Abnormals, it doesn't mean much. Also, no, passive probability manip is not the same as supernatural luck
 
Supernatural Luck isn't enough to deal with the thing The Hero has done, like randomly giving Medaka a power up when she was against an enemy she couldn't defeat.

Eugh, I don't like putting the blame of that on The Hero as if it could give Medaka any random ability whenever. The Unknown Shiranui arc starts because Medaka can now understand people (a prerequisite for using styles), and so Shiranui is no longer needed as a double. And she'd fought and interacted with a lot of style users, with many people commenting on how she was beginning to develop a style. And hell, she was using one earlier in the fight when punching Iihiko.

Besides, if all it took was nullifying a modification of odds to stop The Hero, then Choujabaru's Abnormality would have been enough.

Encounter doesn't nullify a modification of odds, and it was never used against Medaka.

Nullifying Coincidence and Nullifying Luck in this context aren't the same thing. Ajimu calls the hero really lucky, but as that is the case for all Abnormals, it doesn't mean much.

Medaka already has abnormal luck among Abnormals. She's way more lucky than them, and is described as such multiple times.

Also, no, passive probability manip is not the same as supernatural luck

I'm okay with changing "Supernatural Luck" to "Passive Probability Manip" then.
 
" Eugh, I don't like putting the blame of that on The Hero as if it could give Medaka any random ability whenever. The Unknown Shiranui arc starts because Medaka can now understand people (a prerequisite for using styles), and so Shiranui is no longer needed as a double. And she'd fought and interacted with a lot of style users, with many people commenting on how she was beginning to develop a style. And hell, she was using one earlier in the fight when punching Iihiko "

Don't worry, that's not what I'm claiming lol, nothing close to it. I'm referencing that time it gave her a random power up form when she fought our friend the Dark Hero, nothing like what Hanten does. I am using such an extreme case to show an instance of its protection which cannot be explained away by supernatural luck.

" Encounter doesn't nullify a modification of odds, and it was never used against Medaka. "

Who said anything about Gagamaru or Encounter? Of course his skill has nothing to do with probability, so I don't know why you are bringing him up out of left field.

" Medaka already has abnormal luck among Abnormals. She's way more lucky than them, and is described as such multiple times. "

I know, but the things The Hero does can't just be luck. Or, to put it another way, its not just luck. Don't forget about the "whims of Fate" thing

" I'm okay with changing "Supernatural Luck" to "Passive Probability Manip" the. "

That would be nice, but there is the point I made with respect to Joji's Beyond. Its fate/probability manip that functions exactly like plot manip, so whether or not it is spelled out as plot manip, it should be indexed as and considered such.
 
Don't worry, that's not what I'm claiming lol, nothing close to it. I'm referencing that time it gave her a random power up form when she fought our friend the Dark Hero, nothing like what Hanten does. I am using such an extreme case to show an instance of its protection which cannot be explained away by supernatural luck.

Oh, didn't she only use power ups that she'd already developed beforehand, though? At first she used a powerup she used to beat Zenkichi a few chapters earlier, which had her losing. She started winning once she went back to her initial powerup.

Who said anything about Gagamaru or Encounter? Of course his skill has nothing to do with probability, so I don't know why you are bringing him up out of left field.

My bad, I messed up Chougasaki with Choujabaru. Still, Choujabaru's anti-luck hax isn't perfect, as show here. It did have some effect on Unzen's luck, giving him a single diamond instead of all hearts, but normal Abnormal-level luck still beat it. Kumagawa also was similarly unusually unlucky.

After discussing this with you on Discord, I think that Abnormals should get "Resistance to Probability Manip/Nullification", since their luck is barely affected by a skill like that. And that Zenkichi's Devil Style should negate that resistance.

That would be nice, but there is the point I made with respect to Joji's Beyond. Its fate/probability manip that functions exactly like plot manip, so whether or not it is spelled out as plot manip, it should be indexed as and considered such.

I'm not familiar with it so I can't really comment.

(As an aside, there's some stuff in both of your posts that I didn't respond to. For those I didn't really have a response, I don't have a counterargument but I also didn't find it super convincing. Pretend I just said "Yeah I guess, but I don't think that's enough for plot manip" or something like that.)
 
" Oh, didn't she only use power ups that she'd already developed beforehand, though? At first she used a powerup she used to beat Zenkichi a few chapters earlier, which had her losing. She started winning once she went back to her initial powerup. "

Yeah, I think I was thinking of a different fight. I need to remember which, we can set this aside for now. Either way, there are things it does that Luck alone won't do, such as modifying mind sets

" My bad, I messed up Chougasaki with Choujabaru. Still, Choujabaru's anti-luck hax isn't perfect, as show here. It did have some effect on Unzen's luck, giving him a single diamond instead of all hearts, but normal Abnormal-level luck still beat it. Kumagawa also was similarly unusually unlucky.

After discussing this with you on Discord, I think that Abnormals should get "Resistance to Probability Manip/Nullification", since their luck is barely affected by a skill like that. And that Zenkichi's Devil Style should negate that resistance."

Yeah, fair enough. I agree. This also adds more nuance to the status of The Hero as well.

" I'm not familiar with it so I can't really comment.

(As an aside, there's some stuff in both of your posts that I didn't respond to. For those I didn't really have a response, I don't have a counterargument but I also didn't find it super convincing. Pretend I just said "Yeah I guess, but I don't think that's enough for plot manip" or something like that.) "

I see. Here is their profile, so you may familiarize yourself with him. Either way, I was more drawing on precedence than the specifics of his abilities; that an ability that works exactly like plot manip can be listed and treated as plot manip, even if it may or may not technically be plot manip.

Would you be down to include Fate manip along with the passive probability manip at the very least?
 
Either way, there are things it does that Luck alone won't do, such as modifying mind sets

Isn't the main case of this being where she won the first election? That did have a lot of other factors contributing to her win, and she couldn't convince 100% of the people with it, so I think that can fall under a reasonable area of probability hax. I'm sure that there's probability manipulators who have used it to change other people's decisions before.

I see. Here is their profile, so you may familiarize yourself with him. Either way, I was more drawing on precedence than the specifics of his abilities; that an ability that works exactly like plot manip can be listed and treated as plot manip, even if it may or may not technically be plot manip.

Hm, from what I can see on Joji's profile there's some important differences:

  • Joji's chosen by a being beyond time and space who writes a story for Joji.
  • That being controls the narrative flow.
I think these are much more solid reasons for plot manip than Medaka has.

Would you be down to include Fate manip along with the passive probability manip at the very least?

Hmmmmm, I'm not sure on this. I'd like to see other people's thoughts on it.
 
" Isn't the main case of this being where she won the first election? That did have a lot of other factors contributing to her win, and she couldn't convince 100% of the people with it, so I think that can fall under a reasonable area of probability hax. I'm sure that there's probability manipulators who have used it to change other people's decisions before. "

Oh, my bad, I should have been more clear. I was referencing the Music festivel thing where Devil Style prevented "The Hero" from modifying the mentality of the musicians. While probability hax can do a lot, I don't think raw probability hax (at least not the way we usually think of it) would outright change their raw professional mindset.

" Hm, from what I can see on Joji's profile there's some important differences: Joji's chosen by a being beyond time and space who writes a story for Joji. That being controls the narrative flow. I think these are much more solid reasons for plot manip than Medaka has. "

You missunderstand, although that isn't your fault: "Its powers work as if writing a story and Joji is the main character and as such, as long as Joji believes in it it'll control the narrative flow to his benefit." These are treated as metaphors, and while the reader is definitely meant to think of it as plot manip, it isn't actually every directly stated to be this any more than it is in Medaka's case.

" Hmmmmm, I'm not sure on this. I'd like to see other people's thoughts on it. "

fair enough.

I'll raise this as well, I think that whatever we choose to describe it as should also very explicitly direct the reader to the techniques section, where we should have a very details and nuanced description of exactly how "The Hero" works and how it doesn't work
 
@PaChi At least this time we're gradually working towards a conclusion with each post, unlike other similar MB threads in the past.

Oh, my bad, I should have been more clear. I was referencing the Music festivel thing where Devil Style prevented "The Hero" from modifying the mentality of the musicians. While probability hax can do a lot, I don't think raw probability hax (at least not the way we usually think of it) would outright change their raw professional mindset.

I interpreted that that feat meant that Devil Style prevented The Hero from picking people with a particular mindset. i.e. instead of either ability changing mindsets, they changed whatever guests happened to be picked.

You missunderstand, although that isn't your fault: "Its powers work as if writing a story and Joji is the main character and as such, as long as Joji believes in it it'll control the narrative flow to his benefit." These are treated as metaphors, and while the reader is definitely meant to think of it as plot manip, it isn't actually every directly stated to be this any more than it is in Medaka's case.

I don't think Medaka's abilities are as strongly compared to manipulation of the plot, and that the few instances that are are largely fueled by Anshin'in's false belief that they're not real.

I'll raise this as well, I think that whatever we choose to describe it as should also very explicitly direct the reader to the techniques section, where we should have a very details and nuanced description of exactly how "The Hero" works and how it doesn't work

Yeah, I think this would be useful, as well as convenient for implementing on multiple pages. But it might open up weird questions like "Should Zenkichi have it?"
 
"@PaChi At least this time we're gradually working towards a conclusion with each post, unlike other similar MB threads in the past."

Please, go on. Dont take my replies too seriously.
 
" I interpreted that that feat meant that Devil Style prevented The Hero from picking people with a particular mindset. i.e. instead of either ability changing mindsets, they changed whatever guests happened to be picked. "

I interpreted it to be that it prevented The Hero from changing their mindsets, since one of the people who got chosen was someone that definitely should have acted unprofessional given what we know about her.

" I don't think Medaka's abilities are as strongly compared to manipulation of the plot, and that the few instances that are are largely fueled by Anshin'in's false belief that they're not real. "

I mean, Ajimu is (at least for most of the story) the only person who knows they are fiction, so she would be the one comparing them to the plot. You can say she was "fueled" by it, but she isn't wrong. Especially since she literally sees everyone around her as nothing but ink on a page, by what Zenkichi tells us. Also, it isn't a false belief lol, that's just what the other characters pass off her sayings as.

" Yeah, I think this would be useful, as well as convenient for implementing on multiple pages. But it might open up weird questions like "Should Zenkichi have it?" "

I think he should have it on its page, but his description of it should highlight that it would only come up if there was someone that Nullified Devil Style
 
I interpreted it to be that it prevented The Hero from changing their mindsets, since one of the people who got chosen was someone that definitely should have acted unprofessional given what we know about her.

I don't think so, the extent of her "unprofessional" acting is taking her shirt off. And also, if you think that she should have acted unprofessionally, now you're saying that Devil Style actively changes peoples mindsets, which goes strongly against its nature as an ability.

I mean, Ajimu is (at least for most of the story) the only person who knows they are fiction, so she would be the one comparing them to the plot. You can say she was "fueled" by it, but she isn't wrong. Especially since she literally sees everyone around her as nothing but ink on a page, by what Zenkichi tells us. Also, it isn't a false belief lol, that's just what the other characters pass off her sayings as.

Zenkichi never tells us that she sees everyone as ink on a page. She says that she sees people as ink on a page, before describing that she came to that conclusion because she was powerful and lucky, therefore none of it could have been real. I don't think she literally sees things this way.

I think he should have it on its page, but his description of it should highlight that it would only come up if there was someone that Nullified Devil Style

For sure.
 
Some things @Iap

I think that if worded right just Supernatural Luck is fine. Because, if she can pull out 1 in a quadrillion chances just by being an abnormal. Or if Iihiko can make an omnipresent not be able to dodge his rubber band. It does pretty much leave the realm of simple chance.

And as DT said, fate is still just changing the routes one can take to reach certain goals. Probability can manipulate that too. You can change the probability of certain futures happening and at that point it is pretty much indistinguishable from fate manip, which is why both fall under the "causality manip" umbrella.

You can make someone fated to choose you in a competition. Or you can materialize that practically non-existent chance of that person choosing you in a competition.

As for being Passive Probability Manipulation, instead of Supernatural Luck. I tbh disagree, the only difference between the 2 is that PPM gives a more "strong/hax" idea than Luck. However if worderd right just Supernatural Luck should suffice.

Both are pretty much the same.
 
Only what Agnaa and DontTalkDT have accepted.
 
Antvasima said:
Only what Agnaa and DontTalkDT have accepted.
Click to expand...
We've reached an agreement on DT's suggestion.

If Iap agrees too, we'll have an unanimous agreement on DT's suggestion for The Hero.
 
" I don't think so, the extent of her "unprofessional" acting is taking her shirt off. And also, if you think that she should have acted unprofessionally, now you're saying that Devil Style actively changes peoples mindsets, which goes strongly against its nature as an ability. "

I didn't really claim that Devil Style can change people's mind sets, I'm saying that it stops The Hero from making people act unprofessional. It may have just been PIS unrelated to The Hero tho, idk

" Zenkichi never tells us that she sees everyone as ink on a page. She says that she sees people as ink on a page, before describing that she came to that conclusion because she was powerful and lucky, therefore none of it could have been real. I don't think she literally sees things this way. "

We argued for like hours on discord about this, and it didn't really go anywhere. For me the punchline is that, she was right. And regardless of if it is literally plot manip or not, it should at the very least be described as "Psuedo-Plot Manipulation," in my opinion. However, the functionality does not change here, and as long as we get the summary down, everything should be great
 
Firephoenixearl said:
snip
Click to expand...
Yeah, the issue here isn't over Function, its over the mechanism behind it. I do think we should toss in Psuedo-Plot manip and Possibly Fate Manip, but even if we don't, its not like how this would be treated in VS threads would change. I'm ok with whatever happens so long as we get the description down
 
I wasn't planning on drafting this but some ideas came to my head, so I wrote them out.

Supernatural Luck: All Abnormals have this to an extent, but Medaka exceeds them by a far margin. Easily manifesting one in a trillion chances, causing all dice she rolls to stack on top of each other, and helping her to win elections. This can also cause her to have enemy attacks miss vital areas, be spared by the whim of enemies, and come up with winning strategies in a pinch.

@Iapitus If we do include it as pseudo-plot manip wouldn't it change threads? Couldn't someone with plot manip resistance resist it then, when they wouldn't be able to otherwise?

@Ant/DT I'd like your thoughts on giving Abnormals resistance to Power Nullification for their luck, from these scans where Choujabaru's abnormality to make nothing stray from their usual chances barely affected Unzen's luck. And for Zenkichi to get Resistance Negation via Devil Style working on Abnormal luck like this.
 
I mean, even if they nullify the plot aspect the luck and Fate still stay, you would probably need to deal with all aspects of it like Devil Style. Regardless, do what will.

Now about the description. What do you think about these changes:

Supernatural Luck: All Abnormals have this to an extent, but as a "Hero" Medaka exceeds them by a far margin. Easily manifesting one in a trillion chances, causing all dice she rolls to stack on top of each other, and helping her to win elections. This can also cause her to have enemy attacks miss vital areas, be spared by the whim of enemies, and come up with winning strategies in a pinch. The World revolves around them, causing events to flow somewhat similar to a narrative; Their enemies in tournaments will go from weakest to strongest, they may be caught up in random murder plots, they will often run into friends and long-time enemies in unrelated circumstances, etc. However, depending on the kind of "Hero," they can lose this status by performing sufficiently 'unheroic' deeds.
 
Sure, seems fine. I'd also like to have scans for the feats of "manifesting one in a trillion chances" and "rolling dice on top of each other", but I'm writing this first thing in the morning.

I might change "somewhat similar to a narrative" to "somewhat analogous to a narrative".

Zenkichi's and Iihiko's would also need to be written slightly differently, but you'd probably only need to change the first sentence.
 
If I recall, wasn't that in the meating with the principle of the school that it was shown?

Ok, let's go with this then. For Medaka, Iihiko, and Zenkichi respectively:

Supernatural Luck: All Abnormals have this to an extent, but as a "Hero" Medaka exceeds them by a far margin. Easily manifesting one in a trillion chances, causing all dice she rolls to stack on top of each other, and helping her to win elections. This can also cause her to have enemy's attacks miss vital areas, be spared by the whim of enemies, and come up with winning strategies in a pinch. The world revolves around them, causing events to flow somewhat analogous to a narrative; Their enemies in tournaments will go from weakest to strongest, they may be caught up in random murder plots, they will often run into friends and long-time enemies in unrelated circumstances, etc. However, depending on the kind of "Hero," they can lose this status by performing sufficiently 'unheroic' deeds.

Supernatural Luck: All Abnormals have this to an extent, but due to his "Hero" status, Iihiko dwarfs theirs by a vast margin, despite not being an Abnormal himself. Another "Hero," Medaka, is capable of Easily manifesting one in a trillion chances, causing all dice she rolls to stack on top of each other, and helping her to win elections. Heroes can have enemy's attacks miss vital areas, be spared by the whim of enemies, and come up with winning strategies in a pinch. The world revolves around them, causing events to flow somewhat analogous to a narrative, with Iihiko's version being most similar to that of a classical Fairy Tale. However, as a Fairy Tale "Hero," Iihiko can lose this status by performing sufficiently 'unheroic' deeds.

Supernatural Luck: All Abnormals have this to an extent, but as a "Hero" Zenkichi's luck would exceed them by a far margin, despite his mentality technically being that of a Normal. Easily manifesting one in a trillion chances, causing all dices a similar Hero rolls to stack on top of each other, and helping them to win elections. This can also cause them to have enemy's attacks miss vital areas, be spared by the whim of enemies, and come up with winning strategies in a pinch. Usually, the world revolves around them, causing events to flow somewhat analogous to a narrative. However, Zenkichi's Devil Style skill disposes any benefits of his "Hero" status, making him a completely new kind of "Main Character" that stands on his own merits, so that he could defeat a fellow hero Medaka Kurokami in a fair fight, without involving the "whims of Fate." Thus, his Hero status would only come up if Devil Style were to be negated.
 
Yeah. And the door opening was when they were entering the clock tower.
 
Looks great, with just some minor grammatical issues. "their's" should be "theirs" in Iihiko's one, "exceeds" should be "exceed" in Zenkichi's one, and "Usually, The World" should be "Usually, the world" in all three of them.
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
Ok, I finished editing the comment above with descriptions for Medaka, Iihiko, and Zenkichi.
@everyone are y'all ok with these descriptions?
Click to expand...
With the new fixes, the descriptions look fine
 
Didn't he, though? Ajimu made him a hero, but he dispensed with the benefits of a hero by receiving the ability Devil Style.
 
Ajimu wanted to make him a hero and that was a long process of several steps, one of them being choosing an MC-like, ability, which he did not.
 
It really sounded, to me, like he became a hero and then essentially disposed of it, but ig we'll just have to wait for other people's opinions.
 
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