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Major Medaka Box Revisions: The Sequel

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Iapitus_The_Impaler

Iapitus_The_Impaler

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The Other thread got really long so this is the follow up, these are the things that are yet to be resolved. Continued from here

Part 1: The Unknown Statistics

The Original Description: "I have sat back on the "Unknown" status of many of the Medaka Box statistics with the assumption that it was not merely for show. It has recently come to my attention that there is a major lack of concensus on what level the abilities actually work on, and that there must be some note that the abilities such as All Fiction and Book Maker should have "Unknown, Atleast Low 2-C" as apposed to just "Unknown.""

Several (5 or 6) Statements and 1 feat were given, with no contradictions. The case against is that they are hyperbolic or not to be taken serious since this is a metaphictional story


Part 2: The Hero

We are currently discussing whether this should be considered Passive Plot Manipulation, Passive Fate Manipulation, Passive Probability Manipulation, Passive PIS Inducement, or some combination of those 4

The Original Case/Request: I believe "The Hero" should be listed on Medaka and Iihiko's profiles, and should be listed under abilities. Even if the basis for it is essentially plot armor, I think it has enough grounding and properties to atleast warrent a mention on the profiles. For those who do not know about Medaka Box, I'll fill you in. After rereading the series and analysing it multiple time throw, I have written a brief Analysis of "The Hero."

"The Hero" from Medaka Box. It is both the meta "ability," or perhaps it would be better to describe it as a status, of plot armor but also an actual power with actual properties. In essence, if all beings are bound to the whims of the plot and fate, then The Hero is the "status," to always have the whims flow in your favor. Even Plot manipulation will not stop it, only flat out nullification of all plot and fate based powers will.
The Hero is not a binary status. Characters can have lesser versions. Characters such as Medaka or Iihiko have an absolute status as The Hero, and Zenkichi would as well but Devil Style stops its proper functioning. Kamome Tsurubami has a lesser version of The Hero; he has a "Dark Hero" status. He is closer to being the main character, but does not have absolute plot armor. Just like other Edge Lord Heroes, he can lose on the grand scale from time to time (Think of characters like Guts). Kumagawa also has some level of The Hero, but it is unknown exactly how his version works and may even force him to lose. [Here is an album of all my scans to cite my sources.]


Part 3: Changing Public Image

Many of the Images for profiles should be changed for the profiles, and new tabs should be added for several of the characters. This is less important but I felt it should be addressed

Medaka: We should add new tabs for her at increments through the series. First off, her main image should be this one and not that god awful picture of her in her summer uniform. A tab should also be added for her design in the Jet Black Wedding/Unknown Shiranui arc since her design is different enough that I think it is warrented

We should look for color images to replace the black and white profile pictures we have for a few of the character, especially the ones ripped straight from the Manga
 
Anyway here is my main case as of now.

Following the prescident set by the previous issues regarding the Light Speed Hyperbole case (check the notes on Medaka's Page)

This is a very similar case to that, so unless someone says why this should be treated any differently it should be treated under the same precident:

1) There are more statements Putting Medaka Box at 3-A/Low 2-C/2-C or higher then there were for the Light Speed Hyperbole case

2) Just like the other case, no contradictions have been brought to the table.

3) Only the claim that they had no feats or substance backing them was used to appose them, but the light speed statements had the same level of "substance" backing it up and yet it was accepted. Just like the Light Speed Hyperbole case, Only so many statements can be dismissed as meer Hyperbole or a joke
 
1) What statements? I'm only seen the All-Fiction one. Nobody tanked any Big Bang and the Higher Dimensional stuff are part of Ajimu's unproven statements.

2) We don't have to. You have to bring proof and there is none.

3) Because they have no feats.
 
@Matt 1) Unless I'm missing something, we're still talking about Kumagawa, who had no reason to hyperbolize.

2) Agree with you there

3) In that case, I feel like we have a bigger issue regarding this series
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
1) What statements? I'm only seen the All-Fiction one. Nobody tanked any Big Bang and the Higher Dimensional stuff are part of Ajimu's unproven statements.
2) We don't have to. You have to bring proof and there is none.

3) Because they have no feats.
Click to expand...
1) Medaka stated to Create a Universe. All Fiction stated it would Destroy Reality if not controlled properly. If you predate the universe and a universe is created, then where else would you be. Last i checked there is no space outside of the universe. Show me where Ajimu is referenced or mentioned in this sca of high dimensional styles (note what I said about tier irrelevency on the last thread). All Fiction's Conceptual Manipulation or Physics Manipulation on a Universal scale (whether this is just range or whatever is irrelevent to the point I'm about to make) He can delete something Like Molecular Cohesion, since he can delete concepts and parts of physics, and then the univserse falls apart.

2) I was drawing a parallel to a previous case. Since this wiki is consistent, it must follow precident, does it not?

3) Neither did they for the light speed hyperbole case, yet they were accepted. How do you explain that?
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The only times Ajimu is matched is via plot.
Click to expand...
Book Maker and All Fiction combo was not via plot, nothing implies that it was. Burden of Proof falls to the positive, not the negetive
 
Medaka never created a universe.

All Fiction never destroyed all reality.

Ajimu never tanked the Big Bang, also if she predates the Big Bang she wouldn't be made of matter at the time meaning she wouldn't be hit by matter and energy.
 
Jordanbairdcreaturemaster97 said:
1) Would Medaka demonstrating her abilities to Kairai count as an onscreen feat?


Sorry for the big picture
Click to expand...
He isn't going to take that, considering he apparently doesn't think Ajimu has a single skill she mentioned in those blurbs. The point is that the repeted universal statements rases their validity, even if they can be dismissed apart
 
Jordanbairdcreaturemaster97 said:
But in the picture, isn't she demonstrating to Kairai that she ca create a universe? Just like when Ajimu demonstrated 800 (I think) skills to her other opponents?
Click to expand...
yes, but Matt disagrees
 
Just to clear something up.

All I agreed with was the passive plot/probability manipulation.

I haven't said anything else about the other stuff
 
Thank you.

Anyway, I feel like the bigger problem here is that it seems like the Tier upgrade and the Lightspeed feats do indeed have the same amounts of evidence and reliability, yet one is considered valid and the other is not. One way or another, both are gonna have to be considered.

The instance above is indeed Medaka demonstrating that she can create a universe, and I don't think that can be questioned.

Ajimu has similar instances against the Suitors, but the description of what happened is more vague and thus less reliable (very NLF). "Create a Universe" seems more specific and clear-cut to me, so I personally think that one can actually be used.

I agree with Matt on the Big Bang statement.

I do think that Kumagawa's statement is reliable, but I concede that that's not enough for an upgrade, regardless of hyperbole or not.

Plot Manip is good, yes.

No, I don't think Ajimu scales to anyone, as her defeats were instigated by Plot Manipulation in two instances (Medaka and Iihiko), and super broken hax in the other (Book Maker / All Fiction sealing jutsu).

I will reiterate my previous notion that I think the word possibly would potentially solve a few of these problems, but I see Matt's point that it shouldn't be fallen back on for the sake of pandering. This is a very unique case, so I think it's one of the few instances in which it is viable to use.

Please don't misunderstand my intentions, I just want to make sure the pages account for everything for the sake of accuracy.
 
I haveth revived, and I vote I'm favor for the upgrades.

Dismissing several statements that put the verse at 3A-2C because it's all a joke, or no feats seem faulty to me.

But at worst, I would say "possibly 3A due to (insert evidence here), but due to the nature of the series, these may be unreliable".
 
I would like to say that comparing the All Fiction statement and the Lightspeed is a gross false equivalency: In the case of the multiple Lightspeed statements, characters move fast and either themselves or others say that they are moving at Lightspeed.

In the case of All fiction, one character boasts that his power can destroy all of existence, and then the power proceeds to never showcase such potency.

As you can see, the order is reversed.

Also, "Create a Universe skill" being listed among hundreds of other equally unproven skills is not a valid low 2-C feat.

Predating the universe isn't tanking the Big Bang.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Also, "Create a Universe skill" being listed among hundreds of other equally unproven skills is not a valid low 2-C feat.
Click to expand...
Could you be more specific as to why not? All of the skills named in the image are skills she is actually using, at the time of the image, against Kairai.
 
Whenever a person in the series uses a bunch of skills all at once (like she's doing in the pic), the image shows them using the first one or an overall one, but it's definitely intended to show that all of them occurred.

While the picture is just a basic showing of Medaka being more powerful than Kairai, it is also meant to directly show that she is using every skill described on the page.
 
Him using it on Ajimu and using it to erase concepts are examples of using said power.

Occum's razor says that his statement should be taken as fact. Him explaining why he doesn't spam his hax, because he needs to keep it under control requires less assumptions then the cocktail of CIS, PIS, WIS, etc. that you need to assume instead of taking his reason for not spamming his hax as wrong. 2 other characters believe him. And he has, I already explained that Conceptual manipulation or Physics manipulation on this level can be used for 3-A destruction, and he used it on Ajimu.

Order?

the point is that on its own it can be dismissed but this is not some one off occurence of the level of power.

When there is no other place to be it is. If you are going to say that she was non corporeal then prove she was, otherwise we should use occum's razor and say that since she appeared only in a corporeal state and we have never seen a noncorporeal state from her on screen or directly mentioned.

Also There is still The Styles stated Beyond dimensions
 
Now you are arguing for 1-A aijimu, got it.

The ability lists aren't accepted here. Occums razor doesn't exist and you don't know how to use it. It's easier to assume she was a boast than that it can do akmeth on a Tier 2 scale.
 
Not even close. Don't straw man me. Show me where I claimed Ajimu was 1-A. Hope you didn't assume I was referring to Styles being stated beyond dimensions ignoring my clarifications on that from earlier.

If you are going to ignore points because of typos, then Ill wait for Ant's view. Anyone who has taken a logic class knows how to use Occam's razor. Boasting to who exactly? And for what gain? Takes far less assumptions to just assume she tanked it instead of inventing a non corporeal form for her that has never been shown or referenced
 
Jordanbairdcreaturemaster97 said:
Whenever a person in the series uses a bunch of skills all at once (like she's doing in the pic), the image shows them using the first one or an overall one, but it's definitely intended to show that all of them occurred.
While the picture is just a basic showing of Medaka being more powerful than Kairai, it is also meant to directly show that she is using every skill described on the page.
Click to expand...
^This is very well explained about the about the number of abilities Medaka has learned as well. Unless we are saying every ability Medaka has learned throughout the series and has yet shown on the manga page itself should be discredited is not only undermining her main ability The End but also disregarding the entire purpose of the story.

If Medaka has to show every single 100+ ability one by one ever copied than it is no longer a Shonen Manga, but a guidebook.
 
I've already stated my reasoning to support low 2-C All Fiction in the first thread, but I'll try to sum it up here since most people probably woudn't want to read 300+ entries in the last thread.

Even if feats have the priority on everything else it doesn't mean that without a feat everything else should be completely ignored. We have a statement about Low 2-C power. It's worth noting that the skill has universal range (which has already been accepted and is currently listed in Kumagawa's profile, and proved by the fact that it erased the concept of colors) and can affect space-time (as proven by the fact that he erased time to move instantly, which is also already on Kumagawa's profile). That alone is not definitive proof. However, not only there's nothing that contradicts the first statement, but there are also 3 other skills that suggest that at least 3-A power is present in the verse. Furthermore, there are multiple statements of higher-dimensional power in Iihiko's arc, which may support 4D power as well, and being meta jokes doesn't really mean anything since we're already accepting meta elements as part of the series. In short, even without a feat we have multiple elements that suggest that the characters may be low 2-C, none of them with any contradiction, and even if every single element alone wouldn't be enough for the upgrade, but putting all of them together should be enough for a POSSIBLY low 2-C rating.
 
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