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MCU Doctor Strange (And Ancient One) Revisions
- Thread starter CrimsonStarFallen
- Start date
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This is nonsensical dogmatism. Alter an absolute point in time is either something like Fate Manip or just regular powers that bypass the scale of Fate Manip the timeline has upon itself, not something tierable. Alter an absolute point being > "the manipulation of the timeline itself" aims to mean that the latter is Low 2-C when that isn't true, "the manipulation of the timeline itself" (Time Manip, Time Stop, etc.) is nothing, being > nothing = nothing. It's exaggerated to portray those abilities as "the manipulation of the timeline itself", and start an "absolute point in time" in caps has no reason to be as well.
Taking this wording literally then either 1. The edges of the universe imploded to the place where Strange is, pushing and f*cking up everything in the universe and ending up as a 3-A feat should it succeed, meaning that Strange pushing away the last part of the is only as strong as what's needed to destroy the small space that remained in the universe. 2. Every part of the universe is imploding, not just contracting from the edges, except it isn't as the small space left isn't imploding, only from the black parts Strange is "blasting away". But none of them are what's happening, the universe isn't imploding, the incoming destruction isn't 3-A from all parts, let alone Low 2-C, a paradox is making the universe cease to be, all the blackness beyond the small space Strange is defending isn't the destroyed universe coming in hard, the rest of the universe beyond that small space is all gone, it ceased to be. Strange was "blasting" in the sense that he was shooting energy, but it wasn't simply & only using Energy Proj. to push away an incoming force, he was trying to fix things as he could by unknown means/powers as the little bit left of the universe was being paradox'd.
Not really durability=/=AP and the "barriers" are claimed to be and look like the Mirror Dimension, something that already exists that he summons into his plane of reality, it's not something he creates and that he can thus create other evenly powerful things, for offence somehow. Even if he created those Mirror Dimension barriers himself that wouldn't even mean he can create other type of barriers or things just as good, it would only apply to this Mirror World barriers.
Many things wrong. He wasn't affected by the paradox himself and the Mirror Dimension from another plane of reality has no reason to be affected by this, if anything it makes sense that he survived. Some timeline destroying bomb didn't blow up in his face (which wouldn't even be Universe level+ durability due for the same reason a Low 2-C Big Bang isn't Universe level+ in durability), the timeline got "destroyed" due to a paradox and everything in it getting faded away, that's like saying that I survived the destruction of the building where I stand but then if you look into it you can see that the building just slowly faded away.
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could you give a simpler explanation for ze entire thing...? I don't get the gist.
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I'll answer this later I'm in theaters to watch Shang chi currently
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No because it wouldn't be productive to rewrite all that for 1 user when you should be able to undertstand everything I said by analyzing it critically. Rewrite that simpler would take more time and effort for me than you analyzing it, and if anything the latter is the more encourageable action.
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geez, must you suan the fen bie. fine then.
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In my opinion, the argument @Eficiente does kind of make sense: We see, even before The Stranges are absorbed, immobile people & buildings, turning black & fading away. All being pulled upwards.
Presumably, their blackness isn't just fading, but moving to the edges of the disappearing universes around them.
By this logic, it isn't an encroaching force of the universe, ending, but an expanding amount of nothing.
& by that logic, Strange (Who was relatively uninformed on the nature of the matter until recently, not to mention in a poor state of mind.) "blasting away" at the edges of the universe SHOULDN'T accomplish anything.
Because it would seem that he's NOT fighting an encroaching force of the universe destroying, he's shooting at the amassing void that's rapidly filling the universe, as things within the universe fade away, gathering at the void that is the increasingly nearer edges of his disappearing world.
I hope that makes sense.
Not that I can't also see the arguments for the "blasting away" case. I haven't reviewed the footage, but allegedly, he delays the encroachment long enough to hold a conversation with The Watcher, for all that that's worth.
Also, him being unaffected by the paradox kind of makes sense, being that Stephen, especially post-fusion, is the catalyst for at least 1 paradox. (Christine being (not) dead, & the Strange that quested & the 1 that didn't now being the same individual.)
So MAYBE he was unaffected because the universe-destroying paradox(es) ignore what caused them.... But then again, it erases Christine but not Strange, so either he has resistance to EE or whatever the universe was doing, or it only cared about the Absolute Point's Paradox.
Kinda weird. But also, this part of my post about paradoxes is largely just speculation on my part.
Relatedly, wasn't the whole REASON The Ancient One split the timeline in 2 because of Stephen's decision, & her wanting hope that he could correct it, hence, splitting the timeline so there's a version where he didn't go out on his quest for power? Not that splitting the timeline isn't still a Low 2-C feat.
Presumably, their blackness isn't just fading, but moving to the edges of the disappearing universes around them.
By this logic, it isn't an encroaching force of the universe, ending, but an expanding amount of nothing.
& by that logic, Strange (Who was relatively uninformed on the nature of the matter until recently, not to mention in a poor state of mind.) "blasting away" at the edges of the universe SHOULDN'T accomplish anything.
Because it would seem that he's NOT fighting an encroaching force of the universe destroying, he's shooting at the amassing void that's rapidly filling the universe, as things within the universe fade away, gathering at the void that is the increasingly nearer edges of his disappearing world.
I hope that makes sense.
Not that I can't also see the arguments for the "blasting away" case. I haven't reviewed the footage, but allegedly, he delays the encroachment long enough to hold a conversation with The Watcher, for all that that's worth.
Also, him being unaffected by the paradox kind of makes sense, being that Stephen, especially post-fusion, is the catalyst for at least 1 paradox. (Christine being (not) dead, & the Strange that quested & the 1 that didn't now being the same individual.)
So MAYBE he was unaffected because the universe-destroying paradox(es) ignore what caused them.... But then again, it erases Christine but not Strange, so either he has resistance to EE or whatever the universe was doing, or it only cared about the Absolute Point's Paradox.
Kinda weird. But also, this part of my post about paradoxes is largely just speculation on my part.
Relatedly, wasn't the whole REASON The Ancient One split the timeline in 2 because of Stephen's decision, & her wanting hope that he could correct it, hence, splitting the timeline so there's a version where he didn't go out on his quest for power? Not that splitting the timeline isn't still a Low 2-C feat.
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Idk what you mean by the middle but I felt more appropriate to give the reasons for what I decided rather than deciding to not rewrite my comment and just not say anything about your request. I hope it makes more sense from this point of view.
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To add into Imaginym's comment, should Strange be blasting some Low 2-C closing blackness (which he's not) that would also be part of his Lifting Strength, which aside from being even more ridiculous it's also (to add to the list) not how Low 2-C works at all, a whole timeline isn't going to form around some present moment and close in a park-sized space in a way that can be pushed away or slowed down by force.
To note, since he's canceling bits of the paradox (somehow), he could
- Have some Causality Manip via this.
- But then again he may as well be putting the Mirror Dimension around what's left of space and this somehow makes the paradox take effect slower, he may as well be putting effort into it for dramatic effect as he's not sustaining the Mirror Dimension walls with his own power, they just exist on their own
- Unless he is putting power into them and hence they're red.
Most likely the latter rather than some resistance, if I cheat a new PKMN into my team then maybe all other PKMN there get screwed by the game but the new one I added is fine, to give an example. Random things like that are not uncommon.
Ironically, what Ancient One did is far more of a Low 2-C than everything Strange has. She made a timeline become 2 timelines within 1 universe (somehow, it was stated twice that they were in the same universe), I get that messing with cause & effect isn't all that complicated and is just Casality Manip, but the way she also made 1 time & space diverge somewhere else a bit far away from the other timeline, or that she made 2 timeline be at once a bit far away from each other, should make her manipulate time & space in a way that's Low 2-C, if via Environmental Destruction/Creation and not on how hard she can punch or blast others.
As for the Watcher, it's unclear, what happened could mean that he could recreate the timeline just like it could mean that he could use some X esoteric ability, have that fix the paradox, and then have that on its own save the universe. I mean the good Dr. Strange still believed he could save it even when people had half of their faces faded away, as in hoping to have what left their bodies return to them or something.
Stats and powers aside, the MCU kinda f*cked up Strange right now. Thanks to Endgame his millions of strategies against Thanos never included stopping Star-Lord from ruining their almost defeat of Thanos, leading to trillions dying for 5 years, and many of the rest a bit traumatized. Thanks to T'Challa's what-if his millions of strategies against Thanos never included talking to him until making Thanos know that he was wrong despite how we know that at least his final strategy starts by them talking, Thanos tries to reason with his words and another version of T'Challa was able to make what we're told is the same Thanos admit he was wrong and give up his plans in 1 try. Thanks to Dr. Strange's what-if what we're told is our Dr. Strange but with a bit of change in his history dooms the universe by, most notably, doing actions he was told could endanger reality before getting corrupted and with his agency compromised. Thanks to the I Lost my Home trailer our Strange does the same for dumber reasons. I am not gonna lie, the bias blinded me for a bit to notice what were the characters doing, but Strange ignores how the spell could endanger reality and how he shouldn't do it, doesn't explain Spider-Man the dangers of it, how he shouldn't talk in it and nor do they have any meaningful prep before they start that, then the universe's saved because messing with time & space means "portals to other universes open and foe from there come in" rather than what would happen to your computer if you take too many reckless decisions. Dr. Strange went back to square 1 in his character development and needs to re-learn what he already got in his first movie in his second movie.
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Okay just finished the movie and since Eficiente didn't wait can I get a tdlr I'm not home yet so I need a general understanding of all that you said. However as good a summary as you can give
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I feel a bit guilty a bit about not being able to oblige you through helping present the new side of the debate you're interested in that @Eficiente presented, but....
....Well for one, I'm very tired at the moment. Also, even though I have had some involvement in debating some of the matters presented, Eficient has expressed a preference that users thoroughly consider his arguments as they were originally presented, as opposed to considering them as they're paraphrased in a summary....
So, put simply, I wish I could but I don't think I'm in a position to summarize it when I'm sleepy & given the above, I don't feel like I should try to speak for Eficiente, for fear that I might do a misrepresentation.
Pardon my wordyness, please.
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It's all good I'll have time to read through them when I'm home thanks for the heads-up though
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I can just say lets wait until Spider Man comes out their could possibly be some kind of context that makes the Strange stuff make more sense, maybe it doesnt but I still think judging it off one trailer is a bit early.
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Okay I read through and Eficiente does seem to make sense for some parts(anything that I speak about is what's otherwise not necessarily correct or rather entirely accurate from him imo) and there's still not really many details on Strange's feats in the episode or from official sources so it is kinda vague and up to interpretation at points however regarding him trying to push back the marvel wiki goes state that strange is attempting to hold reality in check with his power.
I'd also like to note this is what's said to be happening by marvel wiki as well
"as the world was condensed into a marble with only a mournful Strange as its inhabitant. Looking at the reality, Uatu noted how much one life could potentially condemn a universe."
it's not nothingness he's pushing back and there is still form there in some way and though he still ultimately fails I think that's worth noting. The universe was condensed into the spot strange was at kinda as I said in the discussion thread imploding into Strange.
We also know that Strange himself has nothing to do with the collapse itself in the sense that punishing strange or doing some action to him won't save his universe so in terms of this ↓↓
I'd also like to note this is what's said to be happening by marvel wiki as well
"as the world was condensed into a marble with only a mournful Strange as its inhabitant. Looking at the reality, Uatu noted how much one life could potentially condemn a universe."
it's not nothingness he's pushing back and there is still form there in some way and though he still ultimately fails I think that's worth noting. The universe was condensed into the spot strange was at kinda as I said in the discussion thread imploding into Strange.
We also know that Strange himself has nothing to do with the collapse itself in the sense that punishing strange or doing some action to him won't save his universe so in terms of this ↓↓
There's no mention of anything like this and that Strange isn't independent from the destruction to come of the universe and he more likely than not had some kind of EE as the Watcher specifically states that doing anything to strange wouldn't cause these events to change.
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I also agree to this and for the finale of What if since we'll see more from Strange Supreme in the finale and out mainline strange in MoM
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The Marvel wiki has its stuff added by fans and their interpretations, quoting them is no more good than any of us asking someone near for their take on the matter.
Also they're not even wrong the universe was "condensed", just not as in crushed but as in what's left of the universe being more concentrated, as some room-sized space is less concentrated than the universe when it was whole.
You can't say the color black it's not nothingness if you can't prove it isn't when things getting faded away makes them be that way, like parts of their heads getting that, and yes "that's worth noting", but that doesn't mean one can claim the showing to be Low 2-C w/o a correct reason for it.
Also they're not even wrong the universe was "condensed", just not as in crushed but as in what's left of the universe being more concentrated, as some room-sized space is less concentrated than the universe when it was whole.
You can't say the color black it's not nothingness if you can't prove it isn't when things getting faded away makes them be that way, like parts of their heads getting that, and yes "that's worth noting", but that doesn't mean one can claim the showing to be Low 2-C w/o a correct reason for it.
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Okay yeah I took that as condensed with pressure being built crushing inwards on strange as if space time itself was crushing inwards on him
This is annoying because it's really vague
That's also unfortunate but fair, it really just seems like regarding strange we'll just need to see more and wait on the official words for some things involving him and this episode on particular
However on another note the feat aside do you agree with the ability additions I don't recall you giving your opinions on that
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Think I red he doesn't agree with causality manip
So about Shang-Chi, what did you think about it?
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Personally loved it and thought it did great as a actual start to phase 4 films I'll talk more about it later though sorry lol I'm going to sleep
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ah, I get it now. thanks.
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Problem is though, the erasure encroaches in towards... well, towards some point, & in spite of Strange's barriers, erases Christine within it. Ostensibly, her nothingness would go to outside the barrier, too, implying it's ineffective at preventing stuff leaving, at least, even if it might prevent the void getting in, for all that that's worth. The barriers provide flooring, I guess?
Still, the issue remains, there's still some time before Christine is erased, & despite her being erased very near from Strange by an encroaching force, Strange himself never gets erased; If it's coming in closer, & the barriers don't stop it erasing things within it, then why didn't Strange disappear, too? Based on the nearest thing that recently disappeared (Christine), he was definitely "in range". Especially, since, by that point, he had stopped blasting.
So if the barriers didn't prevent things inside it disappearing, & he wasn't blasting to prevent things disappearing, why wasn't Strange erased?
Thus, I'd argue there's supposed to be some case for Strange preventing or resisting some Existence Erasure to himself here.
Also, while we're debating the universe disappearance feat, there's another problem with it:
Stuff begins fading, & the universe begins disappearing, IIRC, even before the Stranges fight, no?(& even when & where the Strange is fighting, stuff begins disappearing, right?)
The issue comes in when we consider: If the timeline IS disappearing (What are the exact dialogue we use to support this?) as opposed to just the physical universe....
Then wouldn't the assumption be that the timeline & the universe are being destroyed with a similar rate of progress towards their destruction?
If so, then at the point where there's barely a city left of the physical universe, this train of thought would say there's not much timeline left either.
If a timeline is only say, a few hours long or such, with a definite (But in this case, Unknown.) beginning & end, it's not really Infinite anymore, is it?
Ergo, the timeline wouldn't be infinite, & since it's either the universe doing a force to destroy itself (Which no longer needs to destroy infinite time.), or gradually erasing itself, it's questionable if the force being fought against is still Low 2-C.
Though, we have a painful lack of info on this matter; Beyond inferrence, we don't know to when, or if at all, the timeline's beginning & end changed, even if we can reasonably assume it did.
& also, I'd assume this kind of has math & logic slightly at odds; By necessity of the story's logic, as we interpret it, an Infinite Timeline is becoming finite & then nothing. But mathematically, no matter what subtraction or division you apply to infinity, it remains infinity.
Which also leaves the question of if the timeline was actually even destroyed at all; How do we know it isn't the same old timeline, just now with its infinite span consisting of Strange in his barriers, mourning the loss of Christine & the universe?
Again, what's the specific dialogue we use to support it being timeline destruction, as opposed to it being just the same timeline, but now different because of the majority, if not the entirety of space & matter gone from within it?
Sorry for any bother, all.
Colonel_Krukov
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I think we might get answers in the finale episode, after all, if it is indeed Strange Supreme fighting alongside the other heroes there might be a more clear cut explanation.
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I red from the MCU wiki and also Tv Tropes that Christine disappeared basically because her universe was disappearing as well, apparently simply because she was intrinsically linked to the universe due to her death being the Absolute Point that maintained its existence. As for Strange not disappearing, it's likely that...well, he simply created a barrier to protect himself from the destruction and since he isn't as essential, he didn't disappear.
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Yeah again as it's said time and time again I think we should wait until the finale
to see this strange in action especially since they'll be going up against Ultron with visions body and all of the infinity stones
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I can't wait to see that. A multiversial Ultron with all the Stones and Vision's body versus a dark Doctor Strange capable of breaking an absolute universal rule. Hope he will also display new powers
Do we know the airdate of the episode?
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October 6th I believe
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That mentality is a problem, there is no reason to keep things wrong and wait for newer info for it to make things different, making the latter info change things not the one we already have. I could go on and on over why this is not the correct thing we must do using different words and saying different things, so can't we just skip all that and downgrade Strange Supreme?
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What would be his tier then?
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This and what of the AO's timeline split feat would she still get that via ED?
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Same as before, but with the note of him being more powerful.
I believe so, but more staff should look into it first.
Valiant_Abyss
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Shouldn't Post fusion supreme also have 3-A/Low 2-C via environmental destruction?
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Does that mean he can keep the Low 2-C environmental destruction ?
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So is Doctor Strange Supreme getting downgraded?
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By the looks of things yes, there may be clarifications in the finale of What If? but for now he will be downgraded.
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Can I do it? What should he be downgraded to?
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Remove this feats and make him with the same stats as the prior key but stronger due to being whole again.
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correct me if I'm wrong wasn't there a scene where doctor strange altered the power of the time stone which falls under the category of power modification.
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