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MCU 8-C AP / Lifting Strength revision

KLOL506 said:
No, you become a variant for deviating from what the TVA used to consider the Sacred Timeline. And in No Way Home, you become a variant by defying your fate and changing your future.
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Why are we having two different rule for how variants work, TVA management changed to no longer giving a shit about the sacred time-line, but that's still no going to change what a variant is at their core. Even if Norman didn't get cured, going to another universe and beating the shit out of another Spider-Man and killing his aunt before returning to his own timeline would still make him slightly different from his main counterpart.


KLOL506 said:
And their fates are not changed. AT ALL.
Click to expand...
...Yeah

Not until they actually defy their fate, STRANGE LITERALLY SAYS THAT IT'S THEIR FATE TO DIE FIGHTING SPIDER-MAN, until the Spider-Men themselves defy it.

KLOL506 said:
No, you're the one not listening. THE VILLAINS ONLY BECOME VARIANTS AFTER THEY DEFY THEIR FATE. I.E. RIGHT WHERE OCK GETS FIXED AND GETS THE ARC REACTOR, AND RIGHT WHERE ELECTRO GETS FIXED.


Not until they actually defy their fate, STRANGE LITERALLY SAYS THAT IT'S THEIR FATE TO DIE FIGHTING SPIDER-MAN, until the Spider-Men themselves defy it.
Click to expand...

Yes, if these versions of these character went back to their timelines, they most likely met the same fate as their original counterparts (In fact, wouldn't Ock and Electro still ******* die even if they cured). You keep bringing up fate, but I don't see any official statements about that having to do shit with how variants work (We had Loki and What If...? bring up variants and every time it's about changes in events, nothing about fate.



KLOL506 said:
Read above.
Click to expand...

I did. Is this not I said


Variants: Goblin, Ock, Lizard, Electro
Non-Variant: Spider-Dudes and Venom
Weird Grey Area: Sandman
 
CharlesZaGreat said:
Why are we having two different rule for how variants work, TVA management changed to no longer giving a shit about the sacred time-line, but that's still no going to change what a variant is at their core.
Click to expand...
Only after Loki managed to convince Mobius to create a damn uprising.

CharlesZaGreat said:
Even if Norman didn't get cured, going to another universe and beating the shit out of another Spider-Man and killing his aunt before returning to his own timeline would still make him slightly different from his main counterpart.
Click to expand...
No, it wouldn't, if Gobby were returned back to his original universe like that he would still die and his fate would still be sealed and the timeline would go on as usual. What he does on the other universe is no longer of concern to the other already-branched timeline which is now free from the Sacred Timeline's influence.

CharlesZaGreat said:
...Yeah

Not until they actually defy their fate, STRANGE LITERALLY SAYS THAT IT'S THEIR FATE TO DIE FIGHTING SPIDER-MAN, until the Spider-Men themselves defy it.
Click to expand...
Point is, they aren't variants until by the end of the movie when Spider-Man changes them up to no longer die.

CharlesZaGreat said:
Yes, if these versions of these character went back to their timelines, they most likely met the same fate as their original counterparts (In fact, wouldn't Ock and Electro still ******* die even if they cured).
Click to expand...
What? Why would Ock die? He's seen the Arc Reactor in action, he's certainly smart enough to know how to use it at a safe distance. Also he's already lost an arm to Goblin.

And Electro dying after being depowered literally makes no sense. He can't get overloaded anymore if he can't even manipulate electricity to begin with due to being permanently discharged.

Same for Goblin, he'd have no real reason to fight Spider-Man anymore given he's been cured of his insanity. Do you even read what you're saying?

CharlesZaGreat said:
You keep bringing up fate, but I don't see any official statements about that having to do shit with how variants work (We had Loki and What If...? bring up variants and every time it's about changes in events, nothing about fate.
Click to expand...
Events that are connected to their own fate. Like Classic Loki going undetected all those years and only getting caught because he wanted to see his brother Thor again, something he never got the right to do.

CharlesZaGreat said:
I did. Is this not I said


Variants: Goblin, Ock, Lizard, Electro
Click to expand...
With a big asterisk: ONLY AT THE END OF NWH WHEN THEY GET CURED AND NO LONGER DIE AFTER GOING BACK. Up until then, they're the same original villains we saw in the movie, much like how the Loki in Loki is the same exact Loki until he defies his fate to be imprisoned on Asgard and then eventually get murdered by Thanos via the Snap. Just one event alone doesn't change shit, you'd need to change your entire timeline of events for this to work. Let's not forget that the interviews exist.

Lizard is a different story. He meets his fate and doesn't die, just that it happens in a different universe, so he's plonked back to where Spider-Man is about to fall and saves him, and the universe goes on as usual without as much of a smidge on its record.

CharlesZaGreat said:
Non-Variant: Spider-Dudes and Venom
Weird Grey Area: Sandman
Click to expand...
Nah, Sandman never dies, and visibly remembers Peter's name and is straight up friendly to him, so he's definitely not a variant, he'd be hailing from around the same time period as Tobey.
 
KLOL506 said:
Nah, Sandman never dies, and visibly remembers Peter's name and is straight up friendly to him, so he's definitely not a variant, he'd be hailing from around the same time period as Tobey.
Click to expand...
Yes, I brought that up before but there is no real confirmation about it, so that's why he's a grey area


KLOL506 said:
With a big asterisk: ONLY AT THE END OF NWH WHEN THEY GET CURED AND NO LONGER DIE AFTER GOING BACK. Up until then, they're the same original villains we saw in the movie, much like how the Loki in Loki is the same exact Loki until he defies his fate to be imprisoned on Asgard and then eventually get murdered by Thanos via the Snap. Just one event alone doesn't change shit, you'd need to change your entire timeline of events for this to work. Let's not forget that the interviews exist.

Lizard is a different story. He meets his fate and doesn't die, just that it happens in a different universe, so he's plonked back to where Spider-Man is about to fall and saves him, and the universe goes on as usual without as much of a smidge on its record.
Click to expand...
So, they're still ******* variant, we just don't agree at what point they become variant (What a wonderfully useful arguement that we're having which totally has an affect on what character scale to what)

We don't know when Lizard was taken from though, there is some evidence for when he was in the sewer and some evidence for the tower.

Variants can be really ******* similar to their main counterparts, not everything has be a massive change. Kind of why this scene exists (Loki was never originally at Pompei in the main timeline, thus making it a seperate universe, but since that the difference in that universe is so ******* miniscule it really doesn't matter.



KLOL506 said:
No, it wouldn't, if Gobby were returned back to his original universe like that he would still die and his fate would still be sealed and the timeline would go on as usual. What he does on the other universe is no longer of concern to the other already-branched timeline which is now free from the Sacred Timeline's influence.


Point is, they aren't variants until by the end of the movie when Spider-Man changes them up to no longer die.



Events that are connected to their own fate. Like Classic Loki going undetected all those years and only getting caught because he wanted to see his brother Thor again, something he never got the right to do.
Click to expand...
Norman getting cured is a massive change and Norman who doesn't get cured but still went to an alternate universe is a much smaller change, they're both variants just on two different levels

Classic Loki survived but wasn't arrested because he ****** off to a desolate planet where he didn't interact with another life form. Everyone still thought he was dead and wasn't doing anything to drastically change the sacred timeline. He's still a variant and became even more of one the second he tried to visit Thor.

Lets do this as an example, Sasha in one universe decides to paint her nails orange, a variant of Sasha decides to get her nails paint purple. Both Sashas live their lives almost the exact same as each other with the one difference being that one had orange nails that one time and the other had purple. As long as getting purple nails doesn't lead to any drastic change, Sasha 2 is allowed to be a variant without disrupting the sacred timeline (The sacred timeline no longer exists though, meaning variant can do whatever the **** they want)


KLOL506 said:
What? Why would Ock die? He's seen the Arc Reactor in action, he's certainly smart enough to know how to use it at a safe distance. Also he's already lost an arm to Goblin.

And Electro dying after being depowered literally makes no sense. He can't get overloaded anymore if he can't even manipulate electricity to begin with due to being permanently discharged.

Same for Goblin, he'd have no real reason to fight Spider-Man anymore given he's been cured of his insanity. Do you even read what you're saying?
Click to expand...
Who said anything about Goblin? I only used Electro and Ock


Electro's situation still seems pretty deadly for a normal person, seems like he'd still be electrocuted to hell a back

Ock would still need to drown his machine, I don't see how the Arc Reactor changes that.




In the end, lets stop arguing or at the very least take it somewhere else cause it has nothing to do with the MCU's 8-C scaling and who gets what for their lifting strength.
 
CharlesZaGreat said:
Yes, I brought that up before but there is no real confirmation about it, so that's why he's a grey area



So, they're still ******* variant, we just don't agree at what point they become variant (What a wonderfully useful arguement that we're having which totally has an affect on what character scale to what)
Click to expand...
No, what I mean is, they have two phases, they're both the origina dudes we saw in the movie and then they turn into variants after Ock gets the Arc Reactor.

At the end of the day tho, yes, this means nothing for scaling to either the MCU or the movies.

CharlesZaGreat said:
We don't know when Lizard was taken from though, there is some evidence for when he was in the sewer and some evidence for the tower.
Click to expand...
No, it just means he could've easily moved to the sewers after being teleported. Remember, the villains explicitly state they were picked off right when they were about to die.

CharlesZaGreat said:
Variants can be really ******* similar to their main counterparts, not everything has be a massive change. Kind of why this scene exists (Loki was never originally at Pompei in the main timeline, thus making it a seperate universe, but since that the difference in that universe is so ******* miniscule it really doesn't matter.
Click to expand...
Except, it never branches out to become a separate universe, which is the whole point of stopping variants. It only becomes a timeline after it has reached the mark, and the TVA seems pretty keen to shut out all variations regardless.

CharlesZaGreat said:
Norman getting cured is a massive change and Norman who doesn't get cured but still went to an alternate universe is a much smaller change, they're both variants just on two different levels
Click to expand...
And there's one massive difference. Norman getting cured does not die and defies his fate. Norman who doesn't get cured, gets pierced and dies.

CharlesZaGreat said:
Classic Loki survived but wasn't arrested because he ****** off to a desolate planet where he didn't interact with another life form. Everyone still thought he was dead and wasn't doing anything to drastically change the sacred timeline. He's still a variant and became even more of one the second he tried to visit Thor.
Click to expand...
And it didn't start to create an alternate branch until he just came up with the thought to meet Thor again.

CharlesZaGreat said:
Lets do this as an example, Sasha in one universe decides to paint her nails orange, a variant of Sasha decides to get her nails paint purple. Both Sashas live their lives almost the exact same as each other with the one difference being that one had orange nails that one time and the other had purple. As long as getting purple nails doesn't lead to any drastic change, Sasha 2 is allowed to be a variant without disrupting the sacred timeline (The sacred timeline no longer exists though, meaning variant can do whatever the **** they want)
Click to expand...
There's a massive difference between altering your own death by curing yourself and painting your nails different colors in case you didn't notice.

CharlesZaGreat said:
Who said anything about Goblin? I only used Electro and Ock

Electro's situation still seems pretty deadly for a normal person, seems like he'd still be electrocuted to hell a back
Click to expand...
How would he be electrocuted if he's returned by the spell to his timeline to a different spot? He's cured now, Spidey would have no reason to start overloading him to begin with.

CharlesZaGreat said:
Ock would still need to drown his machine, I don't see how the Arc Reactor changes that.
Click to expand...
Unibeam. Blow up the supports, let the machine go down, and use the Arc Reactor instead as the source for clean, renewable energy. Not that hard.

CharlesZaGreat said:
In the end, lets stop arguing or at the very least take it somewhere else cause it has nothing to do with the MCU's 8-C scaling and who gets what for their lifting strength.
Click to expand...
No, I think we're done here, the notes for the other two Spidey, Venom, Sandman and Vulture still stand tho. And that they should not be having keys based on their movie appearances (This is basically the biggest point). As for the "Variants", they're also "The Same" dudes from the movie. At least until the end. So they'd have a designation of both "The OG" and "Variants" at the same spot. That be my point.
 
Last edited:
Baken384 said:
doc ock still needs to go to prison for manslaughter
Click to expand...
yes-chad.gif
 
Anyway, bump. Anybody else got any noteworthy feats to post here?

Otherwise, we can go back to how to deal with Spidey's peak Class K feat that he barely pulled off for a while and then failed.

At least Class 100, at most Class K at his peak?
 
KLOL506 said:
At least Class 100, at most Class K at his peak?
Click to expand...
KLOL506 said:
Otherwise, we can go back to how to deal with Spidey's peak Class K feat that he barely pulled off for a while and then failed.
Click to expand...
I would just list it as "Class 100, at most Class K at his peak" or something along those lines. Since the Class K feat is him in a decent lifting spot and using webs and all he really did was stop it from collapsing for a bit.
 
So to restate, here's all the effected profiles
Qawsedf234 said:
People that need to become Class 10 based off Captain America scaling
Click to expand...
Qawsedf234 said:
People who need to be changed to "At least Class 100" for scaling to MCU Spider-Man
People who can keep their Class 100 ratings with improved justifications
Click to expand...

I handled Captain America, Iron Man, War Machine and MCU Spider-Man already. I unlocked the rest and I haven't done anything with the other Spider-Men since KLOL wanted to make a note or something.

The GotG people are being handled in another thread so we don't need to worry about them really.

(Also I totally just didn't forget to do this for like two days)
 
Last edited:
Qawsedf234 said:
I handled Captain America, Iron Man, War Machine and MCU Spider-Man already. I unlocked the rest and I haven't done anything with the other Spider-Men since KLOL wanted to make a note or something.
Click to expand...
Eh I mostly wanted to just leave a note for MCU Spidey regarding his Santa Maria Formosa feat but I think that's already been handled.

The other Spideys and peeps we can leave for later since they have their own feats (Like Ock ripping a clock hand in half by pulling it in the opposite directions, Ock brutally bending out a subway car's frame, Lizard tearing a steel door like paper etc.)
 
Qawsedf234 said:
People who need to be changed to "At least Class 100" for scaling to MCU Spider-Man
Click to expand...
I think Ock's singular tentacles and Goblin's gliders have a case for being Class K since Spidey couldn't free himself from the tentacles no matter how hard he tried, but Gobby's glider straight up tugged it to his advantage and then sliced through it.

Sandman can change size at will so it's not that hard to see him qualify too.

Not sure about the other Spidey but Tobey did stop an enraged Tom so I guess Tobey could also get a "possibly Class K" rating given that he also can contend with the tentacles if he tries hard enough (Though still ultimately weaker)?
 
Qawsedf234 said:
They still have to be changed to Class 100/Class K
Click to expand...
Yeah Class K you mean, I don't think there's any reason for newer Marks Tony and Rhodey to scale to Class 100 unless they're implied to have lifted a tank of the same weight caliber as an M1 Abrams or a German Leopard 2.

EDIT: **** **** **** I MEANT THE JET BRIDGE MY BAD

Also I already made a comment about the Class 100 - Class K situation, check that above.
 
KLOL506 said:
Not sure about the other Spidey but Tobey did stop an enraged Tom so I guess Tobey could also get a "possibly Class K" rating given that he also can contend with the tentacles if he tries hard enough (Though still ultimately weaker)?
Click to expand...
I'd give Raimi Spider-Man and Venom the Class K rating. Since stopping an enraged Tom implies that he can handle his maximum in my view.

Ock having Class K isn't that wild either, though he should still scale to Class 100 either way.
 
Propellus said:
Shouldn't all the Spider-Men scale to their webbing?
Click to expand...
If they can tear their own webbing apart, sure. Tobey comes to mind, but Andrew got consistently overpowered by Lizard (Who also tore apart his webbings eventually and straight up gaped him in their final part) up until NWH happened.

Ock and Gobby are certainly decent candidates.

That being said, would Gobby also be Class K for overpowering Tom in their first fight? The script states Tom was no longer holding back there.
 
KLOL506 said:
If they can tear their own webbing apart, sure. Tobey comes to mind, but Andrew got consistently overpowered by Lizard (Who also tore apart his webbings eventually and straight up gaped him in their final part) up until NWH happened.

Ock and Gobby are certainly decent candidates.

That being said, would Gobby also be Class K for overpowering Tom in their first fight? The script states Tom was no longer holding back there.
Click to expand...
Gobby did tear apart Tobey's webbing during their last fight as far as I know
 
KLOL506 said:
Yeah but AFAIK most of Tobey's strength feats come from his own bare muscles (Like lifting that trolley one handed).
Click to expand...
In fact, now that you mention his physical strength, why wasn't Tobey lifting that giant wall that was being pulled by Otto's machine in mind?
 
Aguywhodoesthings said:
Oh i just remembered this calc i made for Raimi Spidey
Click to expand...
That's not tensile strength, that's shearing strength (Shearing strength is for failure by sliding, tensile strength is pulling something off parallel to the direction of pulling).

UNIRONICALLY, SHEARING STRENGTH OF CONCRETE IS HIGHER THAN TENSILE STRENGTH XDDDDDDDDDDDDD. 6 MPa, same value we use for concrete frag.

I already replied KEK.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Wouldn't it just be the edges of the concrete slab that would need to be overpowered, rather than the entire thing? Since only the sides have support while the bottom and top are just in open air.
Click to expand...
That's what he did. He only calculated the area of the sides.

It'd be like this: (Length times thickness) is one side, and (Width times Thickness) is another side, overall, they're both super slim rectangles, we're not even calculating the top and bottom areas because they're not necessary here.

Still unironically wields higher than tensile strength LMFAO
 
KLOL506 said:
That's not tensile strength, that's shearing strength (Shearing strength is for failure by sliding, tensile strength is pulling something off parallel to the direction of pulling).

UNIRONICALLY, SHEARING STRENGTH OF CONCRETE IS HIGHER THAN TENSILE STRENGTH XDDDDDDDDDDDDD. 6 MPa, same value we use for concrete frag.

I already replied KEK.
Click to expand...
Included
 
Qawsedf234 said:
My mistake. I just remember some other calcs having that issue at times.
Click to expand...
Our calcs we fixed them up.

So here's a easy reminder. Pulling/pushing by the sides without crushing the entire thing is shear strength as it slides and fails. Pulling from the bottom face parallel is tensile strength. Pushing the entire thing down and destroying it completely is compressive strength. Thank you Spino for helping me out with this.
 
Okay so who scales to Symbiote Spidey? Gobby (They seemed pretty even in the LS department and had to rely on punching power mostly)? Sandman? Venom obviously thanks to the prequel comic.
 
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