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I do not usually make threads like this, but after reading the Trigun manga a few months ago, something has been bothering me for quite a while. Even though I am currently in the process of revising another verse, I decided to make this thread to finally address the issue. Simply put, the current tiering and statistics for Vash the Stampede and Knives Millions (or Plants in general) are incorrect.
To start with, both characters are listed as Low 1-C in their profiles, owing to this important thing written on the Plant Physiology page, which states that, and I quote:
The justification is, by itself, maybe enough to warrant a Low 1-C rating. The problem, however, lies entirely in the source of the statement. It is supposedly taken from a blog post by Yasuhiro Nightow (the author of the series), yet there is no verifiable evidence that such a source actually exists. In fact, an entire thread by @Robo432343 and several other users was dedicated to locating the alleged blog page where Nightow supposedly made this claim, but the search ultimately yielded nothing as no valid source was ever found, which strongly suggests that the statement may have been fabricated or falsely attributed from the outset. Consequently, the statement cannot be treated as reliable evidence and should be considered invalid for page justification or scaling purposes.
But wait, there is more to this. On the Knives' page, it is stated that:
The problem here is that, nowhere in the scan does it say "Higher Dimension" but rather "Different Dimension", which is not the same thing. Moreover, as per the wiki's JP translator @RaikiKurohane99, the raw scan does not mention "Higher Dimension" but rather "Different Dimension/Different Existence" which is more in line with this scan (& context) right here. Moreover, there is no meaningful elaboration on what exactly is meant beyond a single panel. As such, the claim that this automatically translates to being “infinitely stronger” lacks substantiation, especially considering that such a notion is never explicitly stated anywhere in the manga. Furthermore, both within the same chapter and in the subsequent chapters, Knives is shown to be physically present and directly engaging in combat with Vash. This significantly undermines the interpretation that he had literally transcended into some higher-dimensional state of being. Instead, the statement can be more reasonably interpreted as figurative rather than literal. In other words, Knives did not literally ascend into a higher-dimensional existence; rather, his power evolved to such an overwhelming degree that his previous self—and those around him—became comparatively insignificant. Thus, that statement appears to function more as symbolic language emphasizing an immense increase in power, rather than a literal dimensional transcendence.
Even if one were to give the benefit of the doubt and accept that Knives had indeed ascended to a higher-dimensional plane, the “Higher-Dimensional Existence” statement by itself would not contribute anything to the tier. Why? Well, because to quote this part of the Tiering System FAQ:
Now, some may point to this scan from the new Trigun Stampede anime, where Plants are depicted as being powered by a higher dimension. However, the new anime exists in a separate continuity from the manga and therefore cannot be used as supporting evidence for the latter. Furthermore, afaik, there is no substantial explanation regarding the nature of this “higher dimension,” which results in the same issue outlined in the Tiering System FAQ above.
Therefore, all Plants, including Vash and Knives, will be downgraded from Low 1-C tier. So what will be their new tier? Well, luckily, there is an extra chapter, a sequel of sorts, for Trigun called "Trigun: The Lost Plant", which is set decades later into the future after the final battle with Knives. In this chapter, Vash comes across a Plant that summoned him, and she has been alone for 200 years since crashing into the Planet. I am using scans from a popular manga hosting site (despite some translation issues in there, such as Quanta not being mentioned in the raws and the manga saying 6 years instead of 60 years which is in the raws). Basically, Plants can manipulate the infinitesimally small empty spaces and create matter out of the Plank-like uncertainty, but this generates Negative Energy. So, this lonely plant was able to accumulate so much negative energy that it took the form of a child in her womb, and this energy is powerful enough to vaporize the entire planet. Now, this child is a Special Plant Child similar to Vash and Knives. However, if this child is released, it will become a mini-black hole that will lead to cosmic inflation and ultimately the Big Bang, which will swallow up the entire Universe. The Plant was unable to contain the energy, and the child nearly came out until Vash shot 6 Bullets and immediately BFR'd it into a Subspace of its own creation, where the Child's power gave birth to a new Universe. All in all, we got some feats and statements which will determine the tier of Plants in general, and for Vash and Knives.
The new tiers will be:
Well, let's look at the justification for the speed rating in Vash's profile:
It quite literally says "Graph of the Space Distortion when the gate is opened". It is not at all talking about Speed but rather "Spatial Distortion". To prove my point, the very next page in that chapter (Chapter 78/Volume 12) talks about the distortions occurring hundreds of times whenever the gate opens and closes within 0.7 seconds. In fact, the very next chapter shows how the gate opening and closing causes Spatial Distortions, which have destroyed 7% of the Northern Hemisphere, and it would eventually destroy the planet, as the source of these gate openings and closings is the ongoing fight between Vash and Knives Millions. This was even alluded to a few chapters back when the Spaceships with these Space Distortion Graphs were picking up mass disappearances from the planet, and they concluded that it was the work of Independent Plants i.e., Vash and Knives.
This does not at all showcase anything regarding Speed, but rather AP and Hax involving Spatial Distortions. So, as it stands, Infinite Speed should be removed from the profiles, as the whole thing is taken out of context to justify "Infinite Speed". As such, we will have to use the next best speed showcase in the series. Now, I am aware of the existence of this calculation for the spaceships, which gives them an MFTL+ rating in speed. However, similar to the "Infinite Speed" rating, this too is taken out of context. For starters, the spaceships arrived from Earth into No-Mans-Land (The Planet where all the events happen in Trigun) via the Subspace Warp, and once they reached 160,000 miles away from No-Mans-Land, they started moving, and once they were outside the atmosphere of the planet, they started their descent, which would then take 7 minutes to reach the surface.
As such, even the MFTL+ speed is bunk, as the scans were also taken out of context, similar to the Infinite Speed rating. Therefore, this leaves us with one option for speed feat, which is Knives Million flying out and destroying multiple satellites outside the Planet's Atmosphere very quickly. If anyone is willing to calculate this, please do so. But for now, this would be Massively Hypersonic speed for Knives being able to fly outside the Atmosphere in a single panel. Vash would also scale from this, as he is able to fight Knives on equal grounds.
Votes Tally:
Tier/AP/DC
To start with, both characters are listed as Low 1-C in their profiles, owing to this important thing written on the Plant Physiology page, which states that, and I quote:
The justification is, by itself, maybe enough to warrant a Low 1-C rating. The problem, however, lies entirely in the source of the statement. It is supposedly taken from a blog post by Yasuhiro Nightow (the author of the series), yet there is no verifiable evidence that such a source actually exists. In fact, an entire thread by @Robo432343 and several other users was dedicated to locating the alleged blog page where Nightow supposedly made this claim, but the search ultimately yielded nothing as no valid source was ever found, which strongly suggests that the statement may have been fabricated or falsely attributed from the outset. Consequently, the statement cannot be treated as reliable evidence and should be considered invalid for page justification or scaling purposes.
But wait, there is more to this. On the Knives' page, it is stated that:
The problem here is that, nowhere in the scan does it say "Higher Dimension" but rather "Different Dimension", which is not the same thing. Moreover, as per the wiki's JP translator @RaikiKurohane99, the raw scan does not mention "Higher Dimension" but rather "Different Dimension/Different Existence" which is more in line with this scan (& context) right here. Moreover, there is no meaningful elaboration on what exactly is meant beyond a single panel. As such, the claim that this automatically translates to being “infinitely stronger” lacks substantiation, especially considering that such a notion is never explicitly stated anywhere in the manga. Furthermore, both within the same chapter and in the subsequent chapters, Knives is shown to be physically present and directly engaging in combat with Vash. This significantly undermines the interpretation that he had literally transcended into some higher-dimensional state of being. Instead, the statement can be more reasonably interpreted as figurative rather than literal. In other words, Knives did not literally ascend into a higher-dimensional existence; rather, his power evolved to such an overwhelming degree that his previous self—and those around him—became comparatively insignificant. Thus, that statement appears to function more as symbolic language emphasizing an immense increase in power, rather than a literal dimensional transcendence.
Even if one were to give the benefit of the doubt and accept that Knives had indeed ascended to a higher-dimensional plane, the “Higher-Dimensional Existence” statement by itself would not contribute anything to the tier. Why? Well, because to quote this part of the Tiering System FAQ:
Now, some may point to this scan from the new Trigun Stampede anime, where Plants are depicted as being powered by a higher dimension. However, the new anime exists in a separate continuity from the manga and therefore cannot be used as supporting evidence for the latter. Furthermore, afaik, there is no substantial explanation regarding the nature of this “higher dimension,” which results in the same issue outlined in the Tiering System FAQ above.
Therefore, all Plants, including Vash and Knives, will be downgraded from Low 1-C tier. So what will be their new tier? Well, luckily, there is an extra chapter, a sequel of sorts, for Trigun called "Trigun: The Lost Plant", which is set decades later into the future after the final battle with Knives. In this chapter, Vash comes across a Plant that summoned him, and she has been alone for 200 years since crashing into the Planet. I am using scans from a popular manga hosting site (despite some translation issues in there, such as Quanta not being mentioned in the raws and the manga saying 6 years instead of 60 years which is in the raws). Basically, Plants can manipulate the infinitesimally small empty spaces and create matter out of the Plank-like uncertainty, but this generates Negative Energy. So, this lonely plant was able to accumulate so much negative energy that it took the form of a child in her womb, and this energy is powerful enough to vaporize the entire planet. Now, this child is a Special Plant Child similar to Vash and Knives. However, if this child is released, it will become a mini-black hole that will lead to cosmic inflation and ultimately the Big Bang, which will swallow up the entire Universe. The Plant was unable to contain the energy, and the child nearly came out until Vash shot 6 Bullets and immediately BFR'd it into a Subspace of its own creation, where the Child's power gave birth to a new Universe. All in all, we got some feats and statements which will determine the tier of Plants in general, and for Vash and Knives.
The new tiers will be:
- Vash:
- Base: 5-B (Plants are capable of containing a high amount of energy equivalent to 10 quadrillion times the Hiroshima nuclear explosion, which would instantly vaporize the planet. Stated that he could decimate No-Mans-Land)
- Full Power: 3-A (Possess a Bigger Gate than Knives, which is the source of their power, and could contend with him despite Knives fusing with thousands of Plants and growing exponentially in power. Is similar to the Child of the Lost Plant, who created an entire Universe from the Big Bang, and even BFR'd him into the Subspace with his bullets despite the Child coming out of the Plant's Womb as a black hole)
- Knives:
- Base: 5-B (Plants are capable of containing a high amount of energy equivalent to 10 quadrillion times the Hiroshima nuclear explosion, which would instantly vaporize the planet. Able to harm Vash, who can withstand the force of his own Angel Arm)
- Ark Absorbed: 3-A (Fused with thousands of Plants and gained so much power that he was stated to become a being from a different dimension. His power as a Fused Entity was going to passively change the shape of the planet, and his energy storage is compared to stars if he were to be stable. His power growth was exponential to the point that he was stated to become a threat to the Galaxy. Is similar to the Child of the Lost Plant, who created an entire Universe from the Big Bang)
Speed
Well, let's look at the justification for the speed rating in Vash's profile:
It quite literally says "Graph of the Space Distortion when the gate is opened". It is not at all talking about Speed but rather "Spatial Distortion". To prove my point, the very next page in that chapter (Chapter 78/Volume 12) talks about the distortions occurring hundreds of times whenever the gate opens and closes within 0.7 seconds. In fact, the very next chapter shows how the gate opening and closing causes Spatial Distortions, which have destroyed 7% of the Northern Hemisphere, and it would eventually destroy the planet, as the source of these gate openings and closings is the ongoing fight between Vash and Knives Millions. This was even alluded to a few chapters back when the Spaceships with these Space Distortion Graphs were picking up mass disappearances from the planet, and they concluded that it was the work of Independent Plants i.e., Vash and Knives.
This does not at all showcase anything regarding Speed, but rather AP and Hax involving Spatial Distortions. So, as it stands, Infinite Speed should be removed from the profiles, as the whole thing is taken out of context to justify "Infinite Speed". As such, we will have to use the next best speed showcase in the series. Now, I am aware of the existence of this calculation for the spaceships, which gives them an MFTL+ rating in speed. However, similar to the "Infinite Speed" rating, this too is taken out of context. For starters, the spaceships arrived from Earth into No-Mans-Land (The Planet where all the events happen in Trigun) via the Subspace Warp, and once they reached 160,000 miles away from No-Mans-Land, they started moving, and once they were outside the atmosphere of the planet, they started their descent, which would then take 7 minutes to reach the surface.
As such, even the MFTL+ speed is bunk, as the scans were also taken out of context, similar to the Infinite Speed rating. Therefore, this leaves us with one option for speed feat, which is Knives Million flying out and destroying multiple satellites outside the Planet's Atmosphere very quickly. If anyone is willing to calculate this, please do so. But for now, this would be Massively Hypersonic speed for Knives being able to fly outside the Atmosphere in a single panel. Vash would also scale from this, as he is able to fight Knives on equal grounds.
TL;DR
- Plants will be 5-B in tier
- Vash and Knives will be 5-B in Base and 3-A in their respective 2nd keys
- Speed will be Massively Hypersonic or MHS for both Knives and Vash in their respective 2nd keys
Votes Tally:
- Agree: 7 (@Planck69, @Celestial_Pegasus, @Re5yh, @Natsuki012, @Mr._East_Statement, @Nonynho, @Hecker2222)
- Disagree:
- Neutral:
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