Massive Undertale revisions and downgrades

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[FinePoint]

Isn’t omega flowey stronger than chara since he has 6 souls while chara has 1

Chara's DETERMINATION and murderous intent pushed them to the extreme peak of a human soul. The souls Flowey absorbed weren't genocidal in the same way, and were sort of working against him anyways. Besides, as mentioned before Chara has a much better feat, by completely destroying "the game" in such a way that only they can reset it, minus literally a clean reinstall of the game or messing with the files.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Abandoned this thread for a while. Apologies for any inconvenience this might have caused, and all that.

No offense but this is biased, being a god accounts for nothing, being a god of something doesn't mean the god can one-shot the thing it's god over, it can maybe and not even necessarily mean the god has powers related to it. O. Flowey has that, base Flowey already had that and O. Flowey has that but better, that is the unbiased way to take him being a god.

Yes, and Omega Flowey describes himself as a God while and after flaunting his control over the gameworld to Frisk, and states the whole world is also his own, so, again, that does indicate he held enough dominion over it to qualify as Low 2-C. Base Flowey describing his DETERMINATION powers in similar terms doesn't matter when the context of the two statements is much different: Flowey before absorbing the six SOULs mostly controlled the gameworld by resetting it and then taking a different course of action than the one he took in the previous iteration of the Underground, and that's what "reshaping the world" and "playing God" were in reference to, things that obviously weren't as direct as what Omega Flowey does.

He implies so in a slightly less clear manner than him being unable to kill everyone given the wording; If you want to disagree that this is what he implied on regards to the Monsters then ok, but you should at least be able to see it as a reasonable interpretation.

Sure, but the existence of multiple interpretations doesn't really make all of them equally valid, especially when you put some of them under any amount of scrutiny. So, I don't know what your point is there.

On top of not having done it yet he says that he can't yet because he needs more power, if he'll use that for more than it.

He really doesn't, at least not as directly as you're making it out to be. All he states is that he needs Frisk's SOUL to complete himself and then talks about how he will show "the real meaning of this world" to Humans and Monsters. Given Asriel's dialogue later on in the Pacifist Route, that tidbit was likely referring to how he was planning to destroy the world, since that was his main goal before Asriel's original personality took over.

On top of not having done it yet he says that he can't yet because he needs more power, if he'll use that for more than it. O.Flowey being capable of affecting all of Monters with his power means nothing in regards to him being Low 2-C, ignoring how he missed someone there.

I never said that Flowey was Low 2-C solely for affecting every Monster in the Underground. You talked about him being supposedly unable to kill the Monsters as an anti-feat contradicting Tier 2, and I pointed out that he already performed a comparable feat in this state anyway, which discredits the former. That's about it. The very fact that Flowey already had power exceeding that of every Monster in the Underground put together six times over should already settle this branch of the discussion, in my view.

You missed what I said. With a Human SOUL being able to cross the barrier O.Flowey having 6 should made him able to do the same, and yet you argued that his "current power isn't enough to break through the Barrier and extend his dominion over the outside world", to which I say that he could do the latter if he wanted to and that you made would now need to have the headcanon of him not wanting to pass through the barrier but destroy it also to make sense of it. All that when in reality, he simply lacked the power to do what he wanted. Heck if he can control gameworld itself in a way that is = to one-shotting it like you claim then he should by all means to able to destroy that thing too.

He lacked the power to do what he wanted, yes, and "what he wanted," in this case, was to destroy the whole world of Undertale, again given what Asriel says in the dialogue of his boss fight. Sure, you may say that is in itself already proves that Flowey isn't Low 2-C, but I am already arguing that individual SAVE Files can function as alternate timelines down there, so saying this would be kind of a moot point on its own, at this stage.

The whole "Humans and Monsters" argument is something I already answered above, so I'll put it aside.

Look if you have a comicbook and a character inside that can move its pages to go back and forward and that changes up time in the whole universe inside then good for that, if destroying the timeline inside the comic destroys the comic too then good for that too, but it doesn't mean that controlling random aspects of the comic makes the character Low 2-C, that is nonsense, a headcanon and has no evidence backing it up too. Destroying the timeline could have been so powerful than it destroyed the comic too, and even if they were much the same thing affecting some tiny aspects of it would not be as powerful as destroying all of it, changing present things shown on sight and texts is insignificant next to destroying everyone that is the thing.

You seem to keep missing my point, in that regard. I am not saying Flowey is Low 2-C solely because he changed the text of the game; that much is just supporting context. The primary reasoning is that he describes himself as having full dominion over the gameworld (Which I am arguing is a Low 2-C structure, as said above), and that he can destroy SAVE Files. So, this is mostly a bunch of strawman arguments.

Containing the progress yes, but what is progress in context? Same as when saving progress in a video editor on a file; the file isn't its own video, it doesn't have its length of time and the things shown to us (likewise a SAVE file doesn't have time or space like the timeline), the file from the video editor is just used to set how the video itself will be organized and this info is much less than the video itself. Translating the analogy Undertale is at least the video and maybe even the video editor too, meaning that a SAVE file doesn't even do what we used it for but it just leads to Undertale itself using it for it. With and without that, destroying 1 and making many of them aren't feats that matter Tier 2 wise.

Except that, again, Flowey's SAVE File leads to its own altered version of the gameworld that exists concurrently with the normal one, and Flowey himself refers to Frisk's world as "your old SAVE File," so those things pretty obviously contain more than information within themselves.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Ultima.

 

[Eficiente]

Yes, and Omega Flowey describes himself as a God while and after flaunting his control over the gameworld to Frisk, and states the whole world is also his own, so, again, that does indicate he held enough dominion over it to qualify as Low 2-C. Base Flowey describing his DETERMINATION powers in similar terms doesn't matter when the context of the two statements is much different: Flowey before absorbing the six SOULs mostly controlled the gameworld by resetting it and then taking a different course of action than the one he took in the previous iteration of the Underground, and that's what "reshaping the world" and "playing God" were in reference to, things that obviously weren't as direct as what Omega Flowey does.

• Being a God doesn't inhereditary mean any tier at all. It's on a bigger scale than how Flowey said the same, but a bigger scale of a God from a bit lesser God still doesn't inhereditary mean any tier at all, their hax in certain power(s) can simply be a bit better, which is the case. This is ignoring how he already stated and lore also already stated that all 7 SOULs would make him a God, that on the biggest scale there is for that pointless classification and with the powers he lacks as O. Flowey.
• Having control over tiny bits of a much larger structure doesn't show having a power=to destroying the whole thing, and you're still the one misdealing claiming the control to be over the gameworld and not over certain things present in the gameworld . If I manipulate parts of a certain program then that doesn't=to me being able to manipulate it to a scale that destroys it all at once.
• Claiming ownership means nothing. He could have easily referred to just how things were before with now him having more of a reason to say it due to his new abilities and unknown power upgrade, or him having more of a reason to say it now due to those factors.

I get why you say the part about the gameworld due to how you believe it works but the other 2 things being brought up are worryingly dogmatic. I don't see you in the future making a thread about how being a God and owning a something give tiers or are parts of the reasons for certain tiers on the level of what one's being a God over and what's owned. Everyone can of course believe that they fit into the idea for something having tiers based on what one's being a God over and what's owned, but that isn't the same as those being the reasons or even part of the reasons for it, which you are claiming. That stuff is in honest words just a waste of time that needs to be dropped.

Sure, but the existence of multiple interpretations doesn't really make all of them equally valid, especially when you put some of them under any amount of scrutiny. So, I don't know what your point is there.

If you accept one interpretation of what he says as him being unable to kill even the monsters then that is a big point as it goes against him being Low 2-C in that state.

He really doesn't, at least not as directly as you're making it out to be. All he states is that he needs Frisk's SOUL to complete himself and then talks about how he will show "the real meaning of this world" to Humans and Monsters. Given Asriel's dialogue later on in the Pacifist Route, that tidbit was likely referring to how he was planning to destroy the world, since that was his main goal before Asriel's original personality took over.

That is contradictory, I said O. Flowey said to lack power, you say he really doesn't, but then you inform how he wanted to destroy the world, thing he would be able to do if he was Low 2-C. You're also wrong on the way you portray that;

• "at least not as directly as you're making it out to be": Untrue; "You're feeling left out, aren't you? Well, that's just perfect. After all, I only have 6 souls. I still need one more... Before I become GOD. And then, with my newfound powers... Monsters. Humans. Everyone. I'll show them the REAL meaning of this world." Being yet to become "GOD" implies a certain lack of complexity/power, the lore having referred to that as the power of a God. What he's going to "then" do with "his newfound powers" holds no evidence on its own to be something he can do before this, without him having his newfound powers. This ignoring how the before that has him "only having 6 souls" and still needing one more and how the "then" can follow up that.
• "All he states is that he needs Frisk's SOUL to complete himself": The wording negates the take on his not complete self being able to do what his complete self will. There is a clear lack of power here you're ignoring.
• "and then talks about how he will show "the real meaning of this world" to Humans and Monsters": Again, the wording negates the take on his not complete self being able to do what his complete self will. It doesn't even look like we saw the same text. I have no idea what was the point of the last sentence you say there.

I never said that Flowey was Low 2-C solely for affecting every Monster in the Underground. You talked about him being supposedly unable to kill the Monsters as an anti-feat contradicting Tier 2, and I pointed out that he already performed a comparable feat in this state anyway, which discredits the former. That's about it. The very fact that Flowey already had power exceeding that of every Monster in the Underground put together six times over should already settle this branch of the discussion, in my view.

Looking back at that bit idk why I worded that that way or what I meant at the time. Yes you never said that Flowey was Low 2-C solely for affecting every Monster in the Underground, but I still asked for proof of that feat being = in power to one-shotting all of them and not just hax. Needing a lot of power=/=having the power to one-shot every target of the hax, I bet some small and weak kid unable to one-shot an adult would need also describe the ability to rip their soul as hard work and stuff.

He lacked the power to do what he wanted, yes, and "what he wanted," in this case, was to destroy the whole world of Undertale, again given what Asriel says in the dialogue of his boss fight. Sure, you may say that is in itself already proves that Flowey isn't Low 2-C, but I am already arguing that individual SAVE Files can function as alternate timelines down there, so saying this would be kind of a moot point on its own, at this stage.

Ok, I'll see to it.

You seem to keep missing my point, in that regard. I am not saying Flowey is Low 2-C solely because he changed the text of the game; that much is just supporting context. The primary reasoning is that he describes himself as having full dominion over the gameworld (Which I am arguing is a Low 2-C structure, as said above), and that he can destroy SAVE Files. So, this is mostly a bunch of strawman arguments.

You have described this supporting context as part of the reasons to his AP, you shouldn't have. In fact as supporting context like this wouldn't even be on anyone's AP on cases like this I don't even see the point to bring it up to the discussion. You can make a thread to add in the tiering system how "full dominion over" something gives a tier over it, there exists things like controlling at the same level as destroying but Flowey isn't doing this to the thing and is only messing up tiny aspects out of hundreds of them, maybe even infinite of them as the timeline is. I'll see to the SAVE File stuff, again.

Except that, again, Flowey's SAVE File leads to its own altered version of the gameworld that exists concurrently with the normal one, and Flowey himself refers to Frisk's world as "your old SAVE File," so those things pretty obviously contain more than information within themselves.

Then you believe what you do based on a clear headcanon, seems more likely to me that Kirby fought Marx Soul on the latter's own universe. See the other takes in perspective:

• 1. If Files are a thing that let's a user turn back time then Flowey could have still done what he did, you just have to replace his having his own altered version of the gameworld with him having;
  • 1. A. Turned the area around into a black room.
  • 1. B. Teleported into another part of the Underground or outside the game, like how Johnny Bravo can throw people outside an episode or how Gwenpool can go outside of panels.
  • 1. C. Flowey created a small pocket dimension.
• 1. Flowey refers to Frisk escaping to "your old SAVE File" because they are the mean to reshape the world, if Frisk were to use it they would escape the mess Flowey did. Frisk also seemed to walk into his File and touch it to use it seconds before this, anyone can word this as him escaping to it.
• 2. If Files are a thing that let's users time travel then much the same happens.
• 3. If Files are a thing that let's users change causality then much the same happens.
• 4. If Files are a whole timeline each like you say then it makes no sense with what a File is. It's not as big as the product it's saving, as it's only saving info in tiny parts within some small parts of its length of time, the file lacks the physical things we visually see of the product (so a file in UT should not have space) and file lacks the whole length of time of the product (so a file in UT would not have time). A save file of a game, a photo or a video would lack all of that while only having the info (Causality in UT's case) of what was proceeded so far in the game, photo or video. If you destroy the game, photo and video then their files would be useless, they're no copy of the whole thing, only how to mess up to certain things inside. We can't just say a File in UT is a timeline for no reason, your reasons for it doens't really do anything, why would Flowey not word Frisk running to his save? That's more precise than ripping every living being from the timeline with their memories erased, reshaping the world and being God. And why some black room proves anything at all with all the other crazy things Flowey can do?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out to you as well Eficiente.

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizhaa @Promestein @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @The_real_cal_howard @WeeklyBattles @Therefir @Starter_Pack @Andytrenom @DemonGodMitchAubin

What do you think of Ultima's and Eficiente's discussion points?

 

[Andytrenom]

Honestly I am fine with SAVE files not being timelines.

I still don't agree with UT not having a multiverse though. Goner kid's statement suggest there are different worlds where he doesn't exist, and even if we take fun values to be non canon, there should be universes corresponding to the Gaster followers

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I can take a look at this later today, but to be honest, even tho I am a supporter, I don't much about Undertale tiering

 

[Eficiente]

I already replied to the stuff about Goner Kid above.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Eficiente]

As before but now Andytrenom insisted in something I already replied to but without having replied to what I said. And like before, if other staff agree with it then they probably do so word for word and prefer Andy to be the one arguing the matter.

 

[Greatsage13th]

So this has been going on for a while huh.

 

[Antvasima]

@Andytrenom

What do you think should be done here?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Ultima_Reality @Andytrenom @Ricsi-viragosi @KingPin0422

What do you think should be done here?

 

[Eficiente]

Well, I understand if they're busy, but believe that way too much time happened, so I propose that I do the changes as I proposed them and then if they want to insist on their change on details there then they do so on a later CRT they may create with time. I will wait to see if we all agree to this.

 

[Antvasima]

Let's wait a bit to see if they respond first.

 

[KingPin0422]

I believe Ultima wants to give his explanation for save files being timelines eventually, but I don't know how soon he will be able to provide it. If we're willing to wait a bit longer, we can see what he has to say, but if it's preferred to apply the downgrades now and settle this matter in another thread, then that's fine, too.

---

Asriel stops holding back when going 100%, the Hyper Goner was before it, thus, it wasn't his true power. It can be assumed that the Hyper Goner was unknown properties Asriel didn't expect Frisk to survive (Absorption, EE, something related to the lore on that attack's shape, we don't know, we know it was just a very strong attack while still not him at 100% and that is good enough).

"Now, ENOUGH messing around! It's time to purge this timeline once and for all!"

^ Asriel says this right before unleashing Hyper Goner. It's pretty obvious judging by context that he's actually trying to kill Frisk with this attack so that he can "purge the timeline" (i.e., perform a True Reset, based on Flowey's post-game monologue). When Frisk takes a hit from Hyper Goner, their HP is reduced to 1, but subsequent hits don't affect them at all, and Asriel is later shown to be genuinely surprised that Frisk survived his attack. Sure, he still wasn't using every bit of his power, but it goes to show that Asriel wasn't being remotely serious up until this point.

Also consider that at the beginning of the fight, Asriel says this:

"I don't care about destroying this world anymore. After I defeat you and gain total control over the timeline... I just want to reset everything."

Asriel could have annihilated Frisk at any point, which makes sense when Flowey with zero SOULs is already strong enough to (almost) one-shot Frisk. Instead, he chose to monologue about how he will force Frisk to play with him forever, then attempt to kill them, which barely failed because of their Determination. He definitely wasn't planning on using his full power.

Also, no offense, but I'm kind of disappointed in you for refusing to explain why Asriel's first form's infinite stats are hyperbolic. We know that CHECK stats are a reliable way of scaling monsters to each other for various reasons, and using CHECK stats, we can tell that Undyne, a well-trained warrior, is far stronger than Monster Kid, an untrained child. In turn, Asgore and Toriel are even stronger than Undyne, owing to their status as Boss Monsters. All of these people still pale in comparison to a monster that has absorbed one human SOUL, which is already so strong that nearly every monster SOUL currently existing would need to combine to be able to rival its power.

Asriel, at the time of fighting Frisk, is a monster that has achieved similar power to seven human SOULs: the combined SOULs of all but one monster, plus the six human SOULs collected by Asgore. As we know from statements by Flowey and Undyne, a monster with seven human SOULs' worth of power is straight-up a god. They can break the barrier by themselves, but more importantly, they have enough power to literally end the entire world. Even a monster with a single human SOUL is strong enough to be easily capable of killing humans and shrugging off their attacks- however, they are still subject to the weaknesses of any other monster, which is how Asriel died even with Chara's SOUL.

Given all of the above, I ask you again: on what grounds are Asriel's infinite ATK and DEF hyperbolic? I'm genuinely curious. I'll admit that this wall of text won't matter much if Low 2-C is accepted for Photoshop Flowey, since Asriel's first form would scale up from that, but in case that falls though, I'd appreciate it if you could at least entertain the idea of High 3-A for Asriel's first form.

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Wait, what is this about Flowey getting a wall of text?

 

[Eficiente]

?

When having infinity used it needs proof of it not being hyperbolic, that's the standard thing to think of it, it couldn't even mean that something being infinite is as in High 3-A but that it's "high" & if it wanted to could go higher, or it keeps becoming stronger over time. You would need a whole other thread to change the standards of the wiki.

Asriel having that in his first phase wouldn't even scale to it as the stats doesn't inform how he's fighting you right there but how his stats really are. We saw this on characters like Toriel, who was as strong as Asgore on her stats even tho she was holding back.

Even without an example like it, the same would be believed via common sense. I already wrote most of this very, very basic things in the blog I made to avoid being ignored by certain type of users who force me to write pointless things like this, I linked that blog in the OP, I made this a staff-only thread and yet that doesn't cut it. With that answered, I'm now gonna delete those non-staff comments that I deem unnecessary as I should have done before, as well as any new one as it evidently inspires regular users to talk even when they don't really have anything to say, in the most literal sense as proven by TheKillerYT.

 

[Eficiente]

"Now, ENOUGH messing around! It's time to purge this timeline once and for all!"

^ Asriel says this right before unleashing Hyper Goner.

He sure does, but if you have a character that says "Now I'm gonna destroy the universe", snaps his fingers, removes everything nearby via it, with we knowing the universe is still there, and then the character punches the floor and destroys the universe, then would it be intelligent or unintelligent to say that the snapping destroyed the universe? It would be unintelligent, because the character sure did unleash that right after saying it would destroy the universe, but if the universe is still there then the universe is still there, and if later something else destroys the universe then that something else is what destroys the universe. Do you understand this? Please see the blog linked above again.

It's pretty obvious judging by context that he's actually trying to kill Frisk with this attack so that he can "purge the timeline"

When Frisk takes a hit from Hyper Goner, their HP is reduced to 1, but subsequent hits don't affect them at all, and Asriel is later shown to be genuinely surprised that Frisk survived his attack.

Imagine for a moment the Hyper Goner is ranked Low 2-C; would any of the following sentences be needed to be written on the AP of Asriel's profile when talking about the Hyper Goner?; "it was trying to kill Frisk", "its intended purpose was to murder Frisk", "it should be noted how Asriel was serious on the attack, not expecting Frisk to survive it". They wouldn't, the why of it being that because they don't matter. It doesn't matter how strong of an attack an attack is if it isn't Low 2-C, because "being strong" isn't part of a reason for something to be Low 2-C. If it fits into one's headcanon of why it would be Low 2-C then cool for it, but fitting into an idea=/=being a real reason.

(i.e., perform a True Reset, based on Flowey's post-game monologue).

He was destroying everything and then reset it. We know this much.

Sure, he still wasn't using every bit of his power, but it goes to show that Asriel wasn't being remotely serious up until this point.

Also consider that at the beginning of the fight, Asriel says this:

"I don't care about destroying this world anymore. After I defeat you and gain total control over the timeline... I just want to reset everything."

Asriel could have annihilated Frisk at any point, which makes sense when Flowey with zero SOULs is already strong enough to (almost) one-shot Frisk. Instead, he chose to monologue about how he will force Frisk to play with him forever, then attempt to kill them, which barely failed because of their Determination. He definitely wasn't planning on using his full power.

I fail to this why all this stuff that everybody already knows matters at all. Yes Asriel before using his full power wasn't using his full power. I did see this before as talking for the sake of talking and it could be that I'm not wrong on it.

Also, no offense, but I'm kind of disappointed in you for refusing to explain why Asriel's first form's infinite stats are hyperbolic.

Went over this in the last comment I made, I didn't need to but I did.

We know that CHECK stats are a reliable way of scaling monsters to each other for various reasons, and using CHECK stats, we can tell that Undyne, a well-trained warrior, is far stronger than Monster Kid, an untrained child. In turn, Asgore and Toriel are even stronger than Undyne, owing to their status as Boss Monsters. All of these people still pale in comparison to a monster that has absorbed one human SOUL, which is already so strong that nearly every monster SOUL currently existing would need to combine to be able to rival its power.

Asriel, at the time of fighting Frisk, is a monster that has achieved similar power to seven human SOULs: the combined SOULs of all but one monster, plus the six human SOULs collected by Asgore. As we know from statements by Flowey and Undyne, a monster with seven human SOULs' worth of power is straight-up a god. They can break the barrier by themselves, but more importantly, they have enough power to literally end the entire world. Even a monster with a single human SOUL is strong enough to be easily capable of killing humans and shrugging off their attacks- however, they are still subject to the weaknesses of any other monster, which is how Asriel died even with Chara's SOUL.

None of this matters to the case of something being hyperbolic that you go against there, if some guy says legit things meant to be taken as 100% facts all the time then this doesn't matter if they one day say a hyperbole. On the risk of being rude I'll say that that example is on the level of intelligence as believing those stats aren't hyperbolic and could be used to make the character High Universe level.

Also, regardless of how Ant tagged you before, I would say that you really shouldn't comment on this thread, preferably.

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Once again, what is this about Flowey getting a wall of text?

 

[Eficiente]

In another thread other users had his profile merged with Asriel's, I believe you mean that.

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Ah, I remember that

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody knowledgeable summarise what needs to be done here please, along with the related arguments?

 

[Eficiente]

Downgrade the characters as shown in the OP. I already proposed that I should perform the changes while Ultima Reality and Andytrenom can later in the future make their own CRT to disagree with the things in them they do, as they don't have time to participate in the thread now and the thread is being delayed to a ridiculous degree.

 

[Antvasima]

Which members agree and which disagree?

 

[Eficiente]

Ionliosite, Matthew Schroeder, DarkDragonMedeus, Ricsi-viragosi either agree or seem to generally agree with everything, but DarkDragonMedeus has also gave kudos to what Ultima Reality and Andytrenom said, and the latter 2 disagree on some parts of what I want to do, but not everything.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Perhaps you can start out by applying what has been agreed, and wait for @Ultima_Reality and @Andytrenom regarding the rest?

Medeus seems similar to myself in that he gives lots of kudos to others as long as they try to help out, regardless if he agrees or not.

 

[Eficiente]

It wouldn't work that way, as it's a downgrade and Ultima put into question the tier of a character whom other that also needs to be downgraded is stronger than. It would be messy.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, after reading through Ultima and Andy's posts, I'm moved more towards a neutral position; though, KingPin also seems to make sense. Though, I think Ultima might have things to elaborate save files being universes or not. Though I'm with Andy when he said he's okay with save files not being universes, but appears to have other reasons for there to be more than one universe at least.

 

[Eficiente]

I honestly take the claims of those 3 users as being complete nonsense with all context consided and seeing how you didn't tackle my simple replies to Andy and KingPin I also personally suspect that you didn't look much into the thread and had time for it. If you do, then you can express which parts of what they said you agree with or reply to what I said about their stuff and we can argue and advance the thread from that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I already agreed with the 2-B and/or 2-A stuff being removed; that much is certain. But Ultima put a lot of effort into backing Low 2-C proposals for the god tiers. And honestly, some of the counter arguments against those three users sounded like strawmans. While Andy hasn't commented much I agree, Ultima has been very productive and contributive with his input. And I don't really understand the counter arguments made against Flowey.

 

[Eficiente]

Asriel and Chara are definitely Low 2-C, I never said they weren't.

My replies to Andy here and here are pretty straightorward, if anything it seems that he kinda ignored me on the first thing I said when insisting on what he said, by the last time he talked he completely ignored me. My reply to KingPin is also straightorward. With Ultima I take that as dishonest. He broght up a lot of useless things and portrayed them as important without pointing out how they weren't the real reasons for the character' AP but "supporting evidence", not in the sense that they would be in the AP but be useless things to talk about that any character regardless of its tier would have. For any of the examples in which I brought up fiction interacting with its fictionality I'm clearly seeing for them as comparable to the cases Undertale has, so if you disagree with them being comparable then you should explain the why of it and not just call it a strawman, it's not my fault O. Flowey's reasons for his would-be Low 2-C rank are as special as "character uses this power here, that power there, this power over there and none of them are even Tier 9 but put together are Low 2-C as they exist in a Low 2-C structure, unlike you and me". I can't just argue "that doesn't make any goddam sense", examples easily show what I believe is the nonsense of what's being claimed.

Which counter arguments against Flowey you don't understand? I propose you to write here what you believe would work as O. Flowey's Low 2-C AP, be it a paragraph if it needs to but having all the things that one should see to say "this is legit".

 

[Andytrenom]

I have exams so I can't debate extensively, but here's my thoughts on the Goner Kid stuff

It can't be talking about Gaster. He created the technology used in Core which is being used till this day. That doesn't fit with Goner Kid's line, a "a world where you don't exist and everything goes the same without you"

I also disagree with the line being about encounter probability. Undertake is meta, but there's absolutely nothing that suggests an NPC goes nonexistent if we don't encounter them/their event is triggered

I'll give you that this may be in universe speculation but there's rarely a time where you put a line like this and have it not mean anything in terms of the overall worldbuilding. I think this statement combined with the fact that there are variations in the game according to FUN values is supposed to point to there being multiple timelines

 

[Eficiente]

It can't be talking about Gaster. He created the technology used in Core which is being used till this day. That doesn't fit with Goner Kid's line, a "a world where you don't exist and everything goes the same without you"

Not saying that it necessary has to given the other takes I gave but it absolutely can be referring to Gaster, you took the liberty to interpret "don't exist" as "not existing in on one's whole timeline" and not "from the present moment forward", there is no reason for it. And besides it ignores the depressing meaning the kid's likely going for; the world isn't the same without you, but in the grand scheme of things it may as well be and what difference does it make to not be there, regardless of do mattering.

I also disagree with the line being about encounter probability. Undertake is meta, but there's absolutely nothing that suggests an NPC goes nonexistent if we don't encounter them/their event is triggered

Again, you took the liberty to interpret he would go nonexistent for some reason, nothing goes against you "going into a place, not finding someone, and in other occasion doing the same and finding someone", who said anything about the NPC doing nonexistent of all things when that small process to find him is something taken right of real life. He's just not there at the time. You do find him while other players didn't and he pretty much says "Imagine you didn't find me, what about it? Scary thought", as pretty much "Why do I matter?/Why do we matter?", fitting to how he can be said to not matter as his encounter is unlikely to happen and doesn't change anything, therefore giving him the right on what he says and we dealing with Undertale being meta.

If anyone personally disagrees with it next to the other takes then cool, but to claim that this take is literally impossible to make out of this is absolutely beyond me. Really this strange encounter is likely be meant to be taken in more than 1 possible way anyway and leave interpretations flow, like in other things Undertale had going for.

I'll give you that this may be in universe speculation but there's rarely a time where you put a line like this and have it not mean anything in terms of the overall worldbuilding. I think this statement combined with the fact that there are variations in the game according to FUN values is supposed to point to there being multiple timelines

Unfortunately saying that there are multiple timelines in Undertale (as in the game Chara destroyed) is headcanon based on the info given. 2 more likely takes go like this;

The timeline does change, "creating" many ones, but this goes as in the example of the 1 drawing being changed to many things and only being 1 drawing. Why would Frisk be moving into/creating new timelines instead of having changes in the timeline they're in? It would be odd if each timeline had its own Frisk as there is only 1 canon anomaly, and with 1 Frisk going over many timelines then that messes up things like the characters being the same when all the resets happen with their memory having been lost and Flowey wanting to destroy everything as in destroy the timeline.

The other take is that; yes, alt. universes exist and are out there, but they have 0 reason to be part of Undertale. FUN values are not a canon thing, you need to google that up and we can therefore say that its manipulation is as part of everything as re-loading a Pokémon game to get some rare chance-based thing. Asriel was going to destroy the timeline, aimed to do the same with Chara and Chara destroyed the game for him, with clearly the timeline being destroyed and both characters referring to it as the world all the time; on what basis do we claim that Chara also destroyed other timelines? How do we know those exist within Undertale if they exist out there?

 

[Andytrenom]

The fact that he calls it a "world where you don't exist" seems much more like alternate worlds than the kid making some statement about you not finding him. Your interpretation honestly sounds more like a headcanon to me and a stretch

Honestly I think UT having one timeline would be better narrative wise, but this statement points to multiple timelines when taken as a point of world building.

 

[Eficiente]

@TheKillerYT Regular users aren't supposed to comment on staff-only threads, let alone not keep up with the things in the thread as far of the OP of it goes and claim things regardless of what are the arguments against it, not knowing them. I'm not gonna go back, quote something I already said and expect you to reply to it because you didn't feel like starting with a response to the stuff against what you said.

Also to note, the purpose of having to put my arguments in a blog and in part of the reason for this thread to be staff-only is because I judged I was, and very much disliked, being ignored over, and over, and over again by users who made me write more than what I should because they themselves aren't being as professional as they could be when feeling like handling the matter. Yet I go around finding things that constantly prove my point (outside the thread too), that's improvable.

 

[Eficiente]

The fact that he calls it a "world where you don't exist" seems much more like alternate worlds than the kid making some statement about you not finding him. Your interpretation honestly sounds more like a headcanon to me and a streach

Honestly I think UT having one timeline would be better narrative wise, but this statement points to multiple timelines when taken as a point of world building.

I have no idea why you take this not only literally but with 1 possible interpretation despite it having many that fit with everything and don't contradict solid lore and proven statements going against the idea of Undertale having many timelines, simply put that doesn't make sense. Don't take it in a vacuum, the context of all the takes make them far more likely and you don't seem to want to to face them for some reason; Him talking about Gaster for example, can you tell me to the face that "Imagine a world where you don't exist" would objectively be a stretchy way for some kid on a non-formal conversation to start referring to Gaster's case? It's perfectly legit, all takes are headcanons as this "statement" is just a vague thought given by some character, but your headcanon on the matter is one you claim has to apply in an overly ambitious manner, when it plain simply isn't a fact that changes the context of the world-building and certain feats & ambitions of characters as we know them. That's crazy. It's just meant to make us think what he meant by it with all reasonale takes going as "it's possible" while at the end of the day it was just some kid giving a thought.