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Massive Undertale revisions and downgrades

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Eficiente

He/Him
VS Battles
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I'll start this with a heads up, as I was discovering some of this things my own internal bias briefly somewhat prevented me from being as reasonable as I could about this matter. With this in mind, I would like to mildly ask everyone evaluating this to try their best to remain partial about everything. That's all.


This blog explains why Save Files aren't timelines as some kind of rule in fiction, you can ignore the "Other uses" part.


Then this blog gives further reasons as to why the SAVEs in Undertale aren't timelines and why LOADing and Resetting does not leave behind the timeline where you were. It also explains why Asriel's Hyper Goner doesn't erase the timeline and everything wrong with P. Flowey. I would have made a part for Gaster if he still had a profile.

This was all actually almost accepted in another thread, but I always knew I needed to make a blog for people to see what happened to the stats, my attitude in that thread wasn't the best and I got like 5% of the things I said wrong. It would have also been preferable to have more staff evaluating the matter in the other thread but that never came to be, so starting over in a lesss messy thread should do the job.

The profiles would end up looking like this:
  • P. Flowey: Unknown, at least 9-A (emphasis on how we don't know his tier, not that he's just 9-A)
  • Asriel: Low 2-C when not holding back
  • Chara: Low 2-C
  • Frisk's peak Durability: Low 2-C if we scale them to Asriel, which we probably shouldn't but we can talk about it. Their AP would be downgraded
@Promestein @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @The_real_cal_howard @WeeklyBattles @Therefir @Starter_Pack @Andytrenom @DemonGodMitchAubin @Agnaa @Ricsi-viragosi @Elizhaa @Matthew_Schroeder @Ultima_Reality
 
I heard something about Undertale downgrades and this is long awaited; I pretty much agree with this.
 
I'll do your request and delete that if the thread becomes needlessly long, which I hope doesn't happen. I called 2 regular users here and others can comment if they have significant things to aport, reasonable questions, etc.
1. What we do with Flowey's current justifications and what kind of hax they actually are?

2. What's Base Asriel's tier?
We delete it all and work a new one for his new tier after we accept that his current one is wrong, I can propose the new justification later. I'll talk about it, some new powers for Frisks and how Deltarune characters should be allowed to have profiles after we may go through the main topics of this thread.

If taken literal then this means he as a kid goat, so idk, maybe his profile should only show him with his full power. Otherwise Unknown, with his Durability at either Unknown or Low 2-C like his max power, I didn't give much thought to that part.
 
Would Base Asriel not be able to just backscale from his full power or does that cause scaling issues?
 
Well, he needed a transformation for it and later as a kid he made a pretty elaborated use of his powers to destroy the barrier, which I would imagine would have been unnecessary if transformed at his full power as he can destroy the timeline, if after some time, which should logically include the barrier. So he shouldn't backscale. Flowey could use his powers while not transformed (somewhat) but those were lesser.
 
So " Unknown | Low 2-C "?

Well, that makes sense. Thanks for the answers.
 
Hm. Surprised you didn't just apply the changes you proposed in the previous thread already, given how dead it was.

In any case: I am fine with the arguments in regards to Asriel's Hyper Goner not really destroying the timeline, and the whole thing against 2-B based on Flowey's Resets. My issues here lie on other things, so:

The program's name going crazy before it ends up saying "Floweytale" is hax, not AP. If you change the word "universe" with your name and everywhere it's writen "universe" it now has your name in it, then how much does this tell us about how hard you can punch someone? It doesn't, that's nonsense, you just used hax. Likewise it doen't prove any superiority over Undertale, let alone one where he could one-shot the game like Chara did, if you put your name on a building and you have superpowers that let you control parts of the building in many ways then that's cool, but it doesn't inherently mean you destroy the whole thing at once should you want to, you're only as powerful as you showed to be and your powers only have the scale they showed.
As far as I am aware, no one ever claimed that Flowey is Low 2-C solely because he renamed the game to "Floweytale" or anything of the sort; Low 2-C for Photoshop Flowey was due to him having complete control over the gameworld and being able to warp its entirety at will, and all of these instances of him referring to the world as his own are just supporting evidence for that. Of course, you already seem to have a response to this clarification of mine, so you can ignore this portion of my post if you wish.

Furthermore, even if putting his name on the game was meant to showcase a power over it that is = to destroy it, this would still be still be Flowey projecting how things will be later, not how they are now, just like how everyone isn't dead yet. Flowey still lacks Frisk's SOUL with which he was then going to use his newfound powers to kill everyone and mess things up.
That's as much headcanon as the current justifications that you are arguing against, in my view. Flowey referred to the gameworld as "My World" because his DETERMINATION eclipsed Frisk's and allowed him to snatch away the control of the timeline from their hands, so all of these claims about him being the "the god of this world" certainly aren't just him envisioning how things will be in the future, especially since he is pretty explicitly referring to the current state of affairs, anyway.

Flowey also wanted Frisk's SOUL because, without it, even his current power isn't enough to break through the Barrier and extend his dominion over the outside world, which I'd just chalk up to a property of the Barrier itself, as opposed to a limitation of Flowey's powers, given how we already know that it explicitly constrains the range of the metafictional abilities both him and the Player have access to: Flowey's Resets could only affect the Underground, for example, so much that an external agent (In this case, Frisk) could fall inside Mt. Ebbot and take away the control of the gameworld from him, yet The Player's Resets are perfectly capable of affecting the outside world when the Barrier is broken in the Pacifist Route and in the Neutral Endings, where Frisk manages to escape the Underground.

Lastly, the game of Undertale having inside a timeline is maybe a thing, but we don't know in what way this all works for us to claim that it matters, we need to know the mechanics of how the timeline and Undertale are related and then, based on that info, we can determine if there could be Universal feats based messing up random game aspects there. Maybe it's all just a perspective thing and Undertale is around some super small parts of the universe (not even the timeline), like the pages and panels comicbooks characters like Deadpool and Gweenpool can mess with.
Why exactly would we favor the latter interpretation over the idea that the overarching gameworld simply encompasses (Or is the same thing as) the timeline, though? As far as I am aware, nothing really points to the Gameworld only being centered around specific portions of the universe, and assuming that it does is, as far as I see, nothing but baseless speculation on your part.

As for the SAVE Files not being equatable to timelines: I actually agree with the notion that a single SAVE File doesn't necessarily give leeway to the existence of multiple timelines existing concurrently, but we know that multiple of them do allow for something similar to happen in the game. For instance, when Flowey takes control of the gameworld, his warped version of the game ("Floweytale" / "My World") does seem to exist independently from Frisk's SAVE File, so much that he shatters the latter with no actual effects on his world, which then reverts back to its original state when he is defeated.
 
That's as much headcanon as the current justifications that you are arguing against, in my view. Flowey referred to the gameworld as "My World" because his DETERMINATION eclipsed Frisk's and allowed him to snatch away the control of the timeline from their hands, so all of these claims about him being the "the god of this world" certainly aren't just him envisioning how things will be in the future, especially since he is pretty explicitly referring to the current state of affairs, anyway.

Flowey also wanted Frisk's SOUL because, without it, even his current power isn't enough to break through the Barrier and extend his dominion over the outside world, which I'd just chalk up to a property of the Barrier itself, as opposed to a limitation of Flowey's powers, given how we already know that it explicitly constrains the range of the metafictional abilities both him and the Player have access to: Flowey's Resets could only affect the Underground, for example, so much that an external agent (In this case, Frisk) could fall inside Mt. Ebbot and take away the control of the gameworld from him, yet The Player's Resets are perfectly capable of affecting the outside world when the Barrier is broken in the Pacifist Route and in the Neutral Endings, where Frisk manages to escape the Underground.
I forgot to add in the blog, Flowey states he's yet to become "GOD" explicitly because he needs Frisk's SOUL for it, and later after humiliating Frisk claims to be the god of the world, logically out of sheer arrogance. Heck even in base form he refers to the ability to SAVE and LOAD as playing god. What's more, the idea that he only needed Frisk's SOUL because "his current power isn't enough to break through the Barrier and extend his dominion over the outside world" is false for 2 reasons; 1. he said he couldn't even kill all monters as he is (which he can, but there's no evidence he could destroy them all like he was doing to the timeline as Asriel) and 2. the 6 SOULs alone were already able to teleport Frisk behind the Barrier.

The range of his metafictional abilities doesn't really matter, a comicbook character like that could bend the page of his comic as one of his powers and yet be unable to get pass or destroy a door they may face, it's not like they could just control their whole timeline.
Why exactly would we favor the latter interpretation over the idea that the overarching gameworld simply encompasses (Or is the same thing as) the timeline, though? As far as I am aware, nothing really points to the Gameworld only being centered around specific portions of the universe, and assuming that it does is, as far as I see, nothing but baseless speculation on your part.
I'm sorry but are you hearing yourself there? 1 take over the other clearly takes less speculation. The timeline being its own thing while the game/show/comic as we know it shows us 1 point in time there at a time in the perspective of mostly what we see the protagonist does or what the story shows is the most logical take. We can't take that the game is the timeline because that needs evidence, nor we can take that it has it inside in a way that affecting tiny bits of the game would be Low 2-C because that would just be applying Dimensional Tiering; if a big building has inside another smaller building then someone writing outside the big building "I'm the Master of both Buildings!" isn't a feat. I can agree on the take of UT having inside a timeline (or being one) but that's not the same as what Flowey did messing up all of it, UT is not just the screen we see, there's also internal data like the intro, which Flowey can edit, the message when dying, which Flowey can edit, and more, we know he can edit those things but we don't know what more little things he can edit out of everything or what percentage of everything he can edit at once, we do know he's yet to become "god", needs 1 more SOUL for it and then with his new powers he will be able to kill monsters, humans and everyone. So no, he's not Low 2-C because he can't be, he sits perfectly at Unknown because he don't know how hard he can hit.
when Flowey takes control of the gameworld, his warped version of the game ("Floweytale" / "My World") does seem to exist independently from Frisk's SAVE File, so much that he shatters the latter with no actual effects on his world, which then reverts back to its original state when he is defeated.
It makes perfect sense. I admit it's confusing at first but let's put it in perspective;
  • SAVEs allow one to let's say turn back time so that one may "reshape" the world with any action they may want to do, making it "their world" and they "god".
  • Frisk SAVEs before fighting Asgore, therefore Frisk if they feel like it can turn back time before the fight. Their "process" goes up to there, they don't have to play the whole game again to get up to that point in it.
  • Flowey takes over and makes everything we see black. Either the radius of that blackness doesn't reach the barrier or he used his powers to place Frisk and himself somewhere else. Point is, this is this the same timeline.
  • Flowey destroys Frisk's SAVE file, therefore he destroys Frisk's means to turn back time.
  • Flowey has his own SAVEs, therefore means to turn back time.
  • After defeating Flowey the SOULs put Frisk behind the barrier and again, they're still in the same timeline, everyone they killed is still dead.
And so there're 0 reasons to think his world is other timeline, because why would it. If we replace turning back time with Causality Manip then it's the same.
 
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What's more, the idea that he only needed Frisk's SOUL because "his current power isn't enough to break through the Barrier and extend his dominion over the outside world" is false for 2 reasons; 1. he said he couldn't even kill all monters as he is (which he can, but there's no evidence he could destroy them all like he was doing to the timeline as Asriel) and 2. the 6 SOULs alone were already able to teleport Frisk behind the Barrier.
Regarding the second point, it was already established that you need far less souls to cross the Barrier instead of breaking it.

Asriel with one soul could cross it, but needed 7 to break it.
 
I'm not quite sure I agree with Fun values not counting as timelines. There's a statement that basically goes "Imagine a world where I don't exist" by an NPC whose appearance is determined by the FUN values. He's clearly referring to alternate universes here and and logic dictates that these universes are based on FUN values, since whether these NPCs exist or not in the first place are based on fun values.

I can agree to SAVE files not creating independent timelines, but I don't agree with Undertale not having a multiverse
 
I must have skipped the part where someone brought that up in the other thread, as my arguments in the blog are more or less copied from there. Basically that NPC is likely, if not 100% necessarily, to be a Gaster follower, or know him in some way or be referring to him, or alternatively other things not related to Gaster that don't mean alt. universes are a thing. The NPC said if you ever imagined a world that is the same except you don't exist and everything works fine without you and how the thought terrifies him, which can mean many things
  • It can refer to how he's an event that you may or may not face without that implying alt. universes, you could have played the game without this character talking to you and that can be taken as another world/timeline without meaning that there also exists around one where you did talk to him. Using PKMN as an example again you may or may not have a random encounter with a PKMN and if the latter recognizes you could have done your life without seeing them then that's that.
  • As before, but adding how the guy isn't really confirming anything but speculating, just having a thought. One "not existing" can be poetic as in "you do exist but life is the same for anyone else, you don't matter", his sad attitude standing from it. Given UT's meta narrative it would make sense for "not exist" to refer to how you never encounter a NPC without necessarily referring to it not existing if you don't encounter him.
  • It could refer to Gaster, people remember Gaster but it can be said that he doesn't exist as he died, and the world (which is the same timeline) may work just as well without his so hyped out brilliance (I like how that gives him a motivation for villainy).
  • And then it can mean each fun value is an alt. universe, which seems like a headcanon to take as a conclusion and what's more, the other values may not simultaneously exists by way of a multiverse, you may have you arrived in 1 at random while the others don't exist, this while still taking them each as a timeline.
 
It seems obvious that he's referring to alternate worlds in his statement

The idea that by saying "a world where he doesn't exist" he means the same world but you never encountering him seems much more counterintuitive and honestly just grasping at straws to eliminate a certain interpretation that is more natural. Comparing this situation to a pokemon not always appearing is just false equivalency since pokemon doesn't have allusion to alternate universes that is directly tied to a certain encounters happening or not
 
So have you reached any agreements here?
 
It seems obvious that he's referring to alternate worlds in his statement

The idea that by saying "a world where he doesn't exist" he means the same world but you never encountering him seems much more counterintuitive and honestly just grasping at straws to eliminate a certain interpretation that is more natural. Comparing this situation to a pokemon not always appearing is just false equivalency since pokemon doesn't have allusion to alternate universes that is directly tied to a certain encounters happening or not
Not necessarily. Especially not inside all that we know is Undertale as the thing Chara destroyed, any person playing Undertale will have a different fun value on their own, they're not referred to in lore and you can't canonically change them, so if all were each an alt. timeline in a way that matters for us then Undertale as a whole would only be 1 timeline.

You misremembered what he said and somehwhat overlooked what I said. The NPC asked if you ever thought a world where you (not him) ever existed and that the thought of it terrified him, feeling better by Frisk doing something pointless, this all being in canon speculation we can afford to have several takes of or to just dismiss it. The first take I gave took you never encountering him as said world like you said, but without taking it as an alt. universe and instead the same timeline with things different going in it, that is a world where he doesn't exist. Him referring to Gaster and that world being this world is also extremely likely, he looks the same as Gaster's followers (which we don't know what's going on with them and why they're grey) and while he may not be a follower he could know of Gaster or be unintentionally be saying something that gives us info of his character, Gaster was shattered across time and space, we never see him in the story and the Underground works normal without his genius, without even talking about him aside from literally events very rare to happen or be experienced. That terrifying thought would just need to be the thought of death and being essentially useless in grand scheme of things/not as important as thought, Gaster's case is very much a world where everything is the same/functions perfectly fine without him.

The PKMN comparison was a point of reference based on the info given, not the franchise, because I feel in any other verse where a random thing happens, if it happens, and a character were to say "imagine a world where this didn't happen" would be more easily dismissed. Yes Undertale talks about the timeline and time-space and stuff like it but that's irrelevant because it's explicit over how at least you deal with 1 timeline, everyone has 1 shoot at getting their lifes handled and that you have the power to change it. There's also the fact that the player seems to be an anomaly there, which shouldn't exist in other "worlds" where everything is the same/functions perfectly fine without them, but idk what to make of the anomaly.
 
Tbh we shouldn't really assume a verse follows MWI if it isn't stated to be so.

Fun values aren't thing that coexist in the game and aren't changeable through SAVE/LOAD/etc...
There's just one being put among possibilities, and it may trigger easter eggs.
 
Ah. Yes, it's definitely not that for a number of reasons said before.
 
Okay. I think that your username was listed in the verse page, but will try to remember then.
 
Are there any members that you would like me to notify here?
 
Well, I already called more than the knowledgeable users listed, and know that some don't come here for reasons alien than disagreeing with what I brought up, so, considering this was set to be applied before I'll just wait for @Ultima_Reality and @Andytrenom to reply to what I said to them before I may apply this.
 
Damn it, I had plans to do something like this! Well, safe to say I agree with the notion of saves not being universes, as that was total nonce. Fun values are a bit weird, but they seem more like off hand easter eggs than actual separate universes.
 
If I may provide input here: I pretty much agree with most of the points made in the blog, like Undertale only having one timeline and Hyper Goner not erasing it, but I have a few qualms with how Photoshop Flowey is being treated here.

I'll open up by saying that the game as a structure does exist in the gameplay, based on three things:
  1. When Flowey interrupts Frisk and friends' powwow and is asked why he still does what he does, he says: "Don't you get it? This is all just a GAME. If you leave the underground satisfied, you'll "win" the game. If you "win," you won't want to "play" with me anymore. And what would I do then?"
  2. When Frisk is paralyzed in the presence of Asriel's full power, after a few turns, they consider saving over Asriel's file, and after they fail to do so, the narration states: "Seems SAVING the game really is impossible."
  3. When Chara awakens and does their reality-destroying feat at the end of the Genocide Route, the game window shakes like an attacked enemy. Also of note is that their attack seems to be aimed at the screen itself.
So now that that's established, we need to settle on the matter of the nature of a save file in Undertale. Simply put, it's a metafictional object whose purpose is to cement one's control over the timeline, as we know from statements and showings of save files identifying control over the timeline. Whoever has the most Determination in the underground is given a save file, and with it, they can do virtually anything to the timeline, which Flowey aptly describes as "The ability to play God!" They can SAVE the game to fix a point in the timeline to which they can go back by LOADING their save file at any time, most notably when they die. They can perform a Reset to clear the data on their save file, effectively resetting the timeline, or with enough power, they can do a True Reset, which completely erases all progress and memories made over the timeline, with only the user being able to remember what happened prior.

With all of the above in mind, we can safely say that the game as a structure is identified with the timeline, at the very least. So, what does that mean for what Flowey does? Well, let's recap everything he does:
  1. When he takes the human SOULs, Flowey closes the game.
  2. When the game is opened up again, the intro is warped to say that all humans and monsters disappeared without a trace.
  3. As the above happens, the game window's title spazzes out before saying "Floweytale", and then going blank entirely.
  4. Flowey's save file appears, reading "My World" in the location of the SAVE. Attempting to reset does nothing, so we are forced to load it.
  5. After loading the file, Frisk appears in a void with no environment whatsoever. Contrast this with literally every other location we are shown, which always has some form of environment.
  6. Frisk finds a save point and activates it, bringing up their save file. Suddenly, Flowey bashes it multiple times, seemingly erasing the contents of the file by the second hit, and then completely shattering the file itself with the fourth.
I'm going to address these incidents point-by-point myself:
  1. Closing the game, as you said, is hax, not AP. However, since "the game" in this case is the timeline itself, perhaps even something overarching it, I would argue that closing the game within the context of Undertale is a Low 2-C feat. Before you claim that I'm arguing that Golden Freddy and Shadow Bonnie from Five Nights at Freddy's are Low 2-C based on doing the same thing, I'm not- FNAF does not explicitly acknowledge the game itself as existing in the verse, and even if it did, the game world never seems to extend beyond a single building, so closing the game wouldn't be a Low 2-C feat in the first place when it comes to FNAF.
  2. I'll admit that this is contradicted by Flowey later stating that he still needs one more SOUL before he can "show them all the REAL meaning of this world," explicitly referring to monsters and humans, but considering that he's already got six human SOULs under his command, he should already be strong enough to wipe everyone out. It's not like the barrier really presents an obstacle to him, seeing as Frisk by themselves could breach it to leave the underground, and they only have one SOUL.
  3. Yeah, this kind of doesn't mean much by itself, and can be construed as a simple case of hax. Data Manipulation, perhaps?
  4. This might be noteworthy, considering that Flowey has seized control of the timeline at this point, so wherever he saved would indeed be his world.
  5. This is probably the most interesting point of the ones I listed, considering that there is literally no other room in the game that is like this. This, in my opinion, strongly suggests that he did some sort of fuckery to the world itself, especially when combined with Flowey remarking that Frisk is all alone in his world and mockingly suggesting them to cry into the darkness for help. I also find the idea that the human SOULs teleported Frisk behind the barrier to be flawed, considering the fact that, as we can see both after the fight and in the True Pacifist Ending, the room where Frisk can exit to the surface is still part of the underground. Still, there's probably some argument against all of this that I haven't considered.
  6. I don't think Frisk's save file being destroyed is a meaningful feat, especially when the other fallen humans are heavily implied to have had save files of their own, and there's a good amount of evidence within the game itself that goes against save files being/referring to their own timelines.
In short, I can see Flowey X being Low 2-C based on the first, fourth, and fifth points- probably AP-wise, definitely hax-wise. This would scale to Asriel's first transformation, since Asriel is Flowey's completed state and has seven souls compared to Flowey's six. Speaking of Asriel, if Flowey X isn't fully Low 2-C, I think that his first form should be High 3-A based on having infinite ATK and DEF- I'm honestly surprised that no one even considers that fact.
 
  1. When Flowey interrupts Frisk and friends' powwow and is asked why he still does what he does, he says: "Don't you get it? This is all just a GAME. If you leave the underground satisfied, you'll "win" the game. If you "win," you won't want to "play" with me anymore. And what would I do then?"
  2. When Frisk is paralyzed in the presence of Asriel's full power, after a few turns, they consider saving over Asriel's file, and after they fail to do so, the narration states: "Seems SAVING the game really is impossible."
  3. When Chara awakens and does their reality-destroying feat at the end of the Genocide Route, the game window shakes like an attacked enemy. Also of note is that their attack seems to be aimed at the screen itself.
  1. That proves nothing, remember what you're trying to argue against, with the game being what we see of Frisk what Flowey said there still makes sense, heck any character can say much the same in any setting that breaks the fourth wall, claiming what you claim based on that info is nonsense.
  2. Then again, if I kill the main character and say that the show is over does that mean the timeline ends? No, and even in that case, the timeline was going to be destroyed, what would Undertale as a game be without its timeline and with Frisk defeated with the take of Undertale and the timeline not being the same? Saying that it needs to be saved makes perfect sense.
  3. Chara destroyed the timeline and the game, there you go.
So now that that's established, we need to settle on the matter of the nature of a save file in Undertale. Simply put, it's a metafictional object whose purpose is to cement one's control over the timeline, as we know from statements and showings of save files identifying control over the timeline. Whoever has the most Determination in the underground is given a save file, and with it, they can do virtually anything to the timeline, which Flowey aptly describes as "The ability to play God!" They can SAVE the game to fix a point in the timeline to which they can go back by LOADING their save file at any time, most notably when they die. They can perform a Reset to clear the data on their save file, effectively resetting the timeline, or with enough power, they can do a True Reset, which completely erases all progress and memories made over the timeline, with only the user being able to remember what happened prior.
Eveything here is redundant and I very much see you giving more meaning to things than what they really have.
With all of the above in mind, we can safely say that the game as a structure is identified with the timeline, at the very least.
None of your stuff proved that.
  1. Closing the game, as you said, is hax, not AP. However, since "the game" in this case is the timeline itself, perhaps even something overarching it, I would argue that closing the game within the context of Undertale is a Low 2-C feat. Before you claim that I'm arguing that Golden Freddy and Shadow Bonnie from Five Nights at Freddy's are Low 2-C based on doing the same thing, I'm not- FNAF does not explicitly acknowledge the game itself as existing in the verse, and even if it did, the game world never seems to extend beyond a single building, so closing the game wouldn't be a Low 2-C feat in the first place when it comes to FNAF.
Not only is it not but even if it was it could be like a universe inside a little cup, affecting the cup doesn't give you any worthy AP. We have seen things like it in fiction many times like a comicbook world being inside a real comic, characters messing with it by, say, closing it can't destroy their whole world, even when destroying the comic destroys their world. It's an insane headcanon.
  1. I'll admit that this is contradicted by Flowey later stating that he still needs one more SOUL before he can "show them all the REAL meaning of this world," explicitly referring to monsters and humans, but considering that he's already got six human SOULs under his command, he should already be strong enough to wipe everyone out. It's not like the barrier really presents an obstacle to him, seeing as Frisk by themselves could breach it to leave the underground, and they only have one SOUL.
Your headcanon. He's more powerful than any 1 human or monster but you're the one saying he can "wipe everyone out [at once]", from what we know, he can't.
  1. This is probably the most interesting point of the ones I listed, considering that there is literally no other room in the game that is like this. This, in my opinion, strongly suggests that he did some sort of fuckery to the world itself, especially when combined with Flowey remarking that Frisk is all alone in his world and mockingly suggesting them to cry into the darkness for help. I also find the idea that the human SOULs teleported Frisk behind the barrier to be flawed, considering the fact that, as we can see both after the fight and in the True Pacifist Ending, the room where Frisk can exit to the surface is still part of the underground. Still, there's probably some argument against all of this that I haven't considered.
There is a difference between "in my opinion" and what we can bring up on CRTs for the wiki to debate to add it or not, Flowey making "f*ckery to the world itself" is a big no.
In short, I can see Flowey X being Low 2-C based on the first, fourth, and fifth points- probably AP-wise, definitely hax-wise. This would scale to Asriel's first transformation, since Asriel is Flowey's completed state and has seven souls compared to Flowey's six.
Nah.
Speaking of Asriel, if Flowey X isn't fully Low 2-C, I think that his first form should be High 3-A based on having infinite ATK and DEF- I'm honestly surprised that no one even considers that fact.
Well, going with standard assumptions ATK and DEF don't mean with how much power the monsters is hitting you with, but how much they themselves have. Think Toriel, and we would have gone with the same logic in any other game. And even then infinite is just hyperbolic.

On a polite way, I please ask you to reconsider posting in this staff thread.
 
They don’t reset anything, they just return to a point in time where they saved. Sans even says this verbatim. “Timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting...” He says that they are stopping, not being reset or destroyed. You start from the place you saved, and depending on the events that occur, that timeline splits.
 
  1. That proves nothing, remember what you're trying to argue against, with the game being what we see of Frisk what Flowey said there still makes sense, heck any character can say much the same in any setting that breaks the fourth wall, claiming what you claim based on that info is nonsense.
The game is centered around Frisk, yes, but I don't know what gives you the idea that the gameworld is encompassed by the timeline, as opposed to vice versa or hell, even that they are coterminous. The gameworld is implicitly, if not explicitly the structure that allows things like save files to exist at all, which very blatantly are a medium through which the timeline can be controlled.
  1. Then again, if I kill the main character and say that the show is over does that mean the timeline ends? No, and even in that case, the timeline was going to be destroyed, what would Undertale as a game be without its timeline and with Frisk defeated with the take of Undertale and the timeline not being the same? Saying that it needs to be saved makes perfect sense.
I mean, I guess this is a fair point against the gameworld encompassing the timeline, but then wouldn't this actually support the notion that they intersect and/or are the same, which you seem to be against?
  1. Chara destroyed the timeline and the game, there you go.
Is this supposed to be a point against the game being on at least the same level as the timeline? Because this part makes no sense.
Eveything here is redundant and I very much see you giving more meaning to things than what they really have.
I don't see what's "redundant" about what I said about how save files work, nor how I am giving more meaning to how certain powers work. Everything I said should make perfect sense to players of Undertale, so why don't we ask other people what they think?
Not only is it not but even if it was it could be like a universe inside a little cup, affecting the cup doesn't give you any worthy AP. We have seen things like it in fiction many times like a comicbook world being inside a real comic, characters messing with it by, say, closing it can't destroy their whole world, even when destroying the comic destroys their world. It's an insane headcanon.
Fair enough.
Your headcanon. He's more powerful than any 1 human or monster but you're the one saying he can "wipe everyone out [at once]", from what we know, he can't.
I never said he could do it all at once, that's a straw man.
There is a difference between "in my opinion" and what we can bring up on CRTs for the wiki to debate to add it or not, Flowey making "f*ckery to the world itself" is a big no.
I'll admit that I chose a bad way to express my point, but you didn't address my point.
Well, going with standard assumptions ATK and DEF don't mean with how much power the monsters is hitting you with, but how much they themselves have. Think Toriel, and we would have gone with the same logic in any other game. And even then infinite is just hyperbolic.
I never denied that first thing, and we know Asriel was messing around with Frisk up until he decided to unleash Hyper Goner, anyway. As for the second part, on what grounds are Asriel's stats hyperbolic? I'm genuinely curious.
On a polite way, I please ask you to reconsider posting in this staff thread.
Putting aside the fact that I am still allowed to post on staff-only threads as a retired administrator (for Joke Battles, but still), Kira made good points as to why this shouldn't be a staff-only discussion in the first place.
 
I forgot to add in the blog, Flowey states he's yet to become "GOD" explicitly because he needs Frisk's SOUL for it, and later after humiliating Frisk claims to be the god of the world, logically out of sheer arrogance. Heck even in base form he refers to the ability to SAVE and LOAD as playing god. What's more, the idea that he only needed Frisk's SOUL because "his current power isn't enough to break through the Barrier and extend his dominion over the outside world" is false for 2 reasons; 1. he said he couldn't even kill all monters as he is (which he can, but there's no evidence he could destroy them all like he was doing to the timeline as Asriel) and 2. the 6 SOULs alone were already able to teleport Frisk behind the Barrier.
He did refer to regular DETERMINATION abilities as being able to "play God" and "reshape the world" beforehand, yes, but he only ever manipulated the gameworld in an indirect manner by reseting the timeline, and only started directly warping things around once he had the Six SOULs, so, those would be statements that are similar, yes, but that would apply under entirely different contexts.

What's more, the idea that he only needed Frisk's SOUL because "his current power isn't enough to break through the Barrier and extend his dominion over the outside world" is false for 2 reasons; 1. he said he couldn't even kill all monters as he is (which he can, but there's no evidence he could destroy them all like he was doing to the timeline as Asriel) and 2. the 6 SOULs alone were already able to teleport Frisk behind the Barrier.
He could definitely do this at the time, yes, given how he could pretty effortlessly restrain the entire main cast when he had absorbed the Six SOULs in the Pacifist Route, and could take the SOULs of every monster in the Underground as well. He didn't exterminate every Monster in the Neutral Route because he wanted to break the Barrier and drag humans into his hell too, which he couldn't accomplish without a seventh SOUL. So, yes, him saying that he hadn't done it yet doesn't imply that he was incapable of doing so.

Frisk also crossed the Barrier and escaped the Underground because they had a Human SOUL, which has enough power to allow individuals to pass through it without the need to destroy it, as seen with Asriel. The Six SOULs had nothing to do with this, and in fact didn't even teleport them to the outside world, or anything of the sort.

The range of his metafictional abilities doesn't really matter, a comicbook character like that could bend the page of his comic as one of his powers and yet be unable to get pass or destroy a door they may face, it's not like they could just control their whole timeline.
That would depend on whether or not a comic page is portrayed as some object that encompasses a cosmic scale, but, you seem to have missed my point by a pretty wide margin there: I was moreso just addressing potential arguments involving Flowey only controlling the Underground, which did exist in the last thread where we discussed this.

I'm sorry but are you hearing yourself there? 1 take over the other clearly takes less speculation. The timeline being its own thing while the game/show/comic as we know it shows us 1 point in time there at a time in the perspective of mostly what we see the protagonist does or what the story shows is the most logical take. We can't take that the game is the timeline because that needs evidence, nor we can take that it has it inside in a way that affecting tiny bits of the game would be Low 2-C because that would just be applying Dimensional Tiering; if a big building has inside another smaller building then someone writing outside the big building "I'm the Master of both Buildings!" isn't a feat.
The existence of a lower-end interpretation doesn't necessarily disprove the validity of a higher-end scenario, especially when, again, this interpretation of yours has absolutely no backing and is mostly just baseless speculation. The very fact that Chara destroying the gameworld was clearly portrayed as a Low 2-C feat already shows that "Undertale" as a structure encompasses the entire setting of the story, as well as the fact that a Reset (A function of the gameworld) can affect the outside world beyond the Barrier.

Of course, your argument against the former feat being evidence for the gameworld being Low 2-C, as far as I recall, is something along the lines of "Chara's destruction probably just happened to have destroyed both the gameworld and the timeline, and their phrasing was just an imprecision!" and if I am on the right mark here, I'd like to ask you to present some evidence pointing towards this interpretation, outside of your intuition on what's the "most logical" take, or whatever.

if a big building has inside another smaller building then someone writing outside the big building "I'm the Master of both Buildings!" isn't a feat.
It isn't, no, but if said character also displayed the ability to warp reality throughout the area spanned by both of these buildings, then that would indeed be a feat for them.

It makes perfect sense. I admit it's confusing at first but let's put it in perspective;
  • SAVEs allow one to let's say turn back time so that one may "reshape" the world with any action they may want to do, making it "their world" and they "god".
  • Frisk SAVEs before fighting Asgore, therefore Frisk if they feel like it can turn back time before the fight. Their "process" goes up to there, they don't have to play the whole game again to get up to that point in it.
  • Flowey takes over and makes everything we see black. Either the radius of that blackness doesn't reach the barrier or he used his powers to place Frisk and himself somewhere else. Point is, this is this the same timeline.
  • Flowey destroys Frisk's SAVE file, therefore he destroys Frisk's means to turn back time.
  • Flowey has his own SAVEs, therefore means to turn back time.
  • After defeating Flowey the SOULs put Frisk behind the barrier and again, they're still in the same timeline, everyone they killed is still dead.
And so there're 0 reasons to think his world is other timeline, because why would it. If we replace turning back time with Causality Manip then it's the same.
You seem to be treating a SAVE File as something more akin to a gateway to a bookmarked point in time, or something along those lines, which as far as I am aware, goes against what a Save File is to begin with, which is a way to record your progress in the game up to a certain point: It's a snapshot of a certain point in time, if you will, and if Flowey can just destroy one entirely with no ill effects on his version of the world, then this indicates that his own SAVE File was existing independently from Frisk's.
 
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Alright, now it's getting out of hand.
They don’t reset anything, they just return to a point in time where they saved. Sans even says this verbatim. “Timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting...” He says that they are stopping, not being reset or destroyed. You start from the place you saved, and depending on the events that occur, that timeline splits.
As pointed out in the blog "stopping" for as in erasing everything, everything ending and the timelines being consumed, and a reset happening is said quite a lot of times. A timeline splitting is not a thing, that's a headcanon.

@AogiriKira They already can comment here on that terms, this was even said before. Your other comment was as necessary as this being a staff thread.

The game is centered around Frisk, yes, but I don't know what gives you the idea that the gameworld is encompassed by the timeline, as opposed to vice versa or hell, even that they are coterminous. The gameworld is implicitly, if not explicitly the structure that allows things like save files to exist at all, which very blatantly are a medium through which the timeline can be controlled.
Standard assumptions make the biggest, unproven claims don't matter. The second sentence makes the game as relevant as a thing that let's one have Time Manip; why do we care about it?
I mean, I guess this is a fair point against the gameworld encompassing the timeline, but then wouldn't this actually support the notion that they intersect and/or are the same, which you seem to be against?
Well, I agree that they "intersect" as in like a page of a comic a comicbook character with 4th Wall Awareness can mess with, that's so simple and vague nobody could disagree with it. But from that to claim doing certain things to the page or comic gives a certain tier to the character when unproven there I obviously disagree with the matter.
Is this supposed to be a point against the game being on at least the same level as the timeline? Because this part makes no sense.
It makes perect sense. I don't see how you believe otherwise.
I don't see what's "redundant" about what I said about how save files work, nor how I am giving more meaning to how certain powers work. Everything I said should make perfect sense to players of Undertale, so why don't we ask other people what they think?
Redundant over the info we already know, not what you said. With some parts being undeservedly emphasized, which is good to point out when I already considerd previous conclusions to come out of nowhere. Also when you said "They can perform a Reset to clear the data on their save file, effectively resetting the timeline" that holds to proof of being how it works, it's more likely that the reset of the timeline cleared the data of the file as they have no process saved now, not the other way around.
I never said he could do it all at once, that's a straw man.
Then you're headcanon would change to be him being able to "wipe everyone out [by more than 1 at a time on an unproven scale that should fix the claimed rating]", which in turn, just so happens to be what would be a tier that would let him wipe everyone out at once, it doesn't matter. You can take what Flowey said as correct if you don't give him an unproven tier that makes what he said be wrong.
I'll admit that I chose a bad way to express my point, but you didn't address my point.
I saw no point to it, hoping you to reconsider what I believe is basic
  • "considering that there is literally no other room in the game that is like this. This, in my opinion, strongly suggests that he did some sort of fuckery to the world itself": That is a headcanon, logical assumptions take it being a roon in the game we didn't see (as very, very obviously the Underground is pretty big) or that he did mess some things (making the background black) around there, meters aways, tens of meters away, kilometers, and at the end of the made up stuff you have him having done "some sort of f*ckery to the world itself", this is very obviously a headcanon with when one can assume less wide, and thus more likely things, and that's all even ignoring how we're outright told everyone is still alive.
  • "especially when combined with Flowey remarking that Frisk is all alone in his world and mockingly suggesting them to cry into the darkness for help.": This is beyond absurd as it is invalidated by something as simple as what he said still making sense without making having done "some sort of f*ckery to the world itself".
  • "I also find the idea that the human SOULs teleported Frisk behind the barrier to be flawed, considering the fact that, as we can see both after the fight and in the True Pacifist Ending, the room where Frisk can exit to the surface is still part of the underground.": The barrier is gone by then.
I never denied that first thing, and we know Asriel was messing around with Frisk up until he decided to unleash Hyper Goner, anyway. As for the second part, on what grounds are Asriel's stats hyperbolic? I'm genuinely curious.
Headcanon, once again are told how things are and it's being ignored. Asriel stops holding back when going 100%, the Hyper Goner was before it, thus, it wasn't his true power. It can be assumed that the Hyper Goner was unknown properties Asriel didn't expect Frisk to survive (Absorption, EE, something related to the lore on that attack's shape, we don't know, we know it was just a very strong attack while still not him at 100% and that is good enough). It doesn't matter the other part.
Putting aside the fact that I am still allowed to post on staff-only threads as a retired administrator (for Joke Battles, but still), Kira made good points as to why this shouldn't be a staff-only discussion in the first place.
I already tried that before, twice actually, I don't find it worth it over being ignored over and over again, having to say the same over and over, sometimes dealing with arguments I personally consider very cringy, and incomplete reasons/comments I need to ask in a conversation to be less vague on what they meant. +Derailment.

He did refer to regular DETERMINATION abilities as being able to "play God" and "reshape the world" beforehand, yes, but he only ever manipulated the gameworld in an indirect manner by reseting the timeline, and only started directly warping things around once he had the Six SOULs, so, those would be statements that are similar, yes, but that would apply under entirely different contexts.
..but, still, why does this matter at all? Why does it apply to anything we care about to debateabout? Imagine from your point of view I'm correct and he is Unknown with lots of hax don't do anything to his AP; he would be a god and this would still be him referring to himself as a god under an entirely different context. This adds literally nothing to the idea of him being Low 2-C.
He could definitely do this at the time, yes, given how he could pretty effortlessly restrain the entire main cast when he had absorbed the Six SOULs in the Pacifist Route, and could take the SOULs of every monster in the Underground as well. He didn't exterminate every Monster in the Neutral Route because he wanted to break the Barrier and drag humans into his hell too, which he couldn't accomplish without a seventh SOUL. So, yes, him saying that he hadn't done it yet doesn't imply that he was incapable of doing so.
No, it's still a headcanon, he only restrained some dozens or so of characters and taking their SOULs is hax. We add that to him saying he can't kill everyone and we have him not being able to kill everyone, at least not all at once. The rest is structurally a headcanon, and he didn't say he hasn't done it yet, he there communicates wanting to do it but needing Frisk's SOUL first. He also didn't care to kill monsters in the Geno. route.
Frisk also crossed the Barrier and escaped the Underground because they had a Human SOUL, which has enough power to allow individuals to pass through it without the need to destroy it, as seen with Asriel. The Six SOULs had nothing to do with this, and in fact didn't even teleport them to the outside world, or anything of the sort.
This makes no sense, Frisk had a human SOUL and the human SOULs themselves "had nothing to do with this"? This does nothing to point out why Flowey's "current power isn't enough to break through the Barrier and extend his dominion over the outside world" when he has what needs to it x6, the headcanon you made would now need to have the headcanon of him not wanting to pass through it but destroy it.
The existence of a lower-end interpretation doesn't necessarily disprove the validity of a higher-end scenario, especially when, again, this interpretation of yours has absolutely no backing and is mostly just baseless speculation. The very fact that Chara destroying the gameworld was clearly portrayed as a Low 2-C feat already shows that "Undertale" as a structure encompasses the entire setting of the story, as well as the fact that a Reset (A function of the gameworld) can affect the outside world beyond the Barrier.

Of course, your argument against the former feat being evidence for the gameworld being Low 2-C, as far as I recall, is something along the lines of "Chara's destruction probably just happened to have destroyed both the gameworld and the timeline, and their phrasing was just an imprecision!" and if I am on the right mark here, I'd like to ask you to present some evidence pointing towards this interpretation, outside of your intuition on what's the "most logical" take, or whatever.
We would take the higher-end scenario as a logical conclusion when the takes of how everything works deem doing so, I replied to something just asked for it knowing what they are. It's a headcanon to say that what Chara did was portrayed that way as opposed to Chara having destroyed both. If a camera films a characters who destroys the universe and the camera does or doesn't get destroyed too then why does it matter? It broke the 4th wall or not, it doesn't matter, if the camera can also be used as an item that can turn back time in the whole universe then it still doesn't matter, it would be like destroying something in-universe that can do the same.

My take is on all the takes I see as more likely that don't make O. Flowy Low 2-C, something like it being one of them. Idk what you mean by "probably just happened to have destroyed both" [things that makes us see the setting] and [the setting], why would it not do so? Have you ever seen something like the multiverse getting destroyed and even the pages of the comic getting destroyed? Or some explosion shaking the camera when it shouldn't? The phrasing was correct, did Chara destroy the timeline? Yes, therefore it's correct. Another take is that it might all be like comicbook worlds inside a comic where destroying the comicbook destroys the whole setting within it, like it could be the case in UT, but this doesn't mean a characters messing up pages of the real comic, which has inside their whole timeline, is Low 2-C via messing with something that encompasses the timeline, because it does so in the same way a universe in a tiny cup may to the same. If you add in the page the crazy abilities like Time Manip that affects all the universe of the comic then sure, what about it? Characters messing with it is still much the same as them having those powers themselves.
It isn't, no, but if said character also displayed the ability to warp reality throughout the area spanned by both of these buildings, then that would indeed be a feat for them.
And this I see as unknown to claim in Flowey's case, it can't be proven he did that and not just write some thing at one side of 1 thing.
You seem to be treating a SAVE File as something more akin to a gateway to a bookmarked point in time, or something along those lines, which as far as I am aware, goes against what a Save File is to begin with, which is a way to record your progress in the game up to a certain point: It's a snapshot of a certain point in time, if you will, and if Flowey can just destroy one entirely with no ill effects on his version of the world, then this indicates that his own SAVE File was existing independently from Frisk's.
I take it as Time Manip (turning back time) or a bit less likely as Causality Manip, not really as Time Travel but it could in fact be that and have a progress too simultaneously. If the ability didn't let you reset to zero then it would rember the beginning, but it does, and even as time travel every time it's SAVEd the file rememers how you did it, knows your name and LV, and let's you go back to the last point saved, all that is a progress, the file has no reason to just and only be used to go back into a later point. Flowey being able to destroy this and his power existing independently is a non-feat, he just destroyed a thing you used for your powers and had his own.
 
Have there been any conclusions here so far?
 
Many, but the discussion should preferably be finished first.
 
But asriel most match wins are with soul absorbation so I dont think we should delete all of them
 
Well, the process should see which ones should stay, and it should not be handled in this thread.
 
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