Massive Undertale revisions and downgrades

[Antvasima]

It would be nice if everybody here could make an effort to reach some kind of agreement.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

bump

 

[Eficiente]

Since Andy has exams and I always get ignored I'll bring up again that I proposed to add my changes now and for Andy and Ultima to later in the future when they may have proper time to participate to make their own CRT to generate their changes to it. If we don't feel like doing this then so be it.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that we may have to go with that solution in lack of better options.

However, can you remind us what exactly that you want to do by writing a summary first please?

 

[Eficiente]

Remove how we treat save files as timelines and saving & loading as leaving other timeline left when doing so, thereby downgrading P. Flowey and Chara. Remove how we think Asriel's Hyper Goner attack destroys the timeline as he was yet to do so after having used that attack. Put P. Flowey at Unknown, at least 9-A, Asriel at Low 2-C when not holding back, Chara at Low 2-C, and not scale Frisk to Asriel or P. Flowey as both one-shot them when feeling like it, with the latter never feeling like ending Frisk. To a note on the 3 god-tiers' profiles linking the blog where I have this explained.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then.

@Ultima_Reality @Andytrenom

This is your final chance in this thread to offer your counter-arguments to Eficiente.

 

[RethPo]

If eficiente would not delete my comment this time. Can i actually suggest something? This whole low 2-C thing seems less like a debunk and more just a lower end interpretation of "this works better with anything else". Its just deciding what the context means in direct opposition to both stated facts and what the verse itself is trying to establish.

Instead of just nuking multiversal and expecting andy or ultima to make a ctr, a low 2-C possibly 2-C/2-B works way better considering theres still evidence to support albeit not totally concrete it, that being goner kids dialogue and previous timelines being accessible, which would make fun values (aka resets) their own timelines.

If the 2-C/2-B rating later gets concluded to have not enough supporting it then it can be nuked. But right now many people havent agreed on getting rid of it.

Also its a nitpick but id probably either take away asriels first key or leave it as unknown. Its just odd to have someone use a form thats a fraction of their power, but then just be infinitely weaker than their real power, a key where hes simply holding back isnt really that necessary or worth the debate of whether he nuked the timeline or not but thats just me.

 

[Eficiente]

I won't delete it but find it beneath my standards, many of my evidence for the downgrade had things like pointing out many BS things we claim that outright make no sense at all and none of it is a "this works better with anything else", it's a "this is the only thing that makes sense" while standing on the takes Andy and Ultima gave as being contradicted by what the game tell us, unproven & unlikely, and thus wrong. To claim what you did seriously seems pretty weird, putting it nicely. I kinda get the feeling that "nuking multiversal" is this bad thing that should not happen when it's just a logical conclusion of what should apply to the characters, there should not be a "I don't want this to happen to the characters", there should instead be a "I understood the arguments and concluded this is wrong" if you did so.

Andy's argument is, aside from in my opinion incredibly stubborn, incomplete. It doesn't tell us if the would-be left timelines have their own people in it with everyone there, everyone but Frisk or nobody (they all have things against it), it also apparently uses Fun values no one talks about in game & you can only see via hacking the game, so idk if he even feels like grabbing all of those and claiming that those are all canon timelines Undertale has or only whatever some of them he may feel like it and do the same, I don't find any of it intelligent.

I was going to fuse Asriel first and second key, "Unknown when holding back, Low 2-C at full power".

 

[QuasiYuri]

Instead of "Unknown when holding back", wouldn't giving him a straight Low 2-C but putting in weakness section that he likes to play around by holding back be better? I mean, dudes like Goku don't have a different rating for every times they hold back.

 

[Eficiente]

Sure, that's entirely acceptable. I'll do so.

 

[RethPo]

Boy weve making overly intellectualised theories on a few sentences from a 5 year old indie game to get power levels for a wiki that confines all of fiction to one system that runs on earth logic and whacky theories about higher planes of existence. "Intelligent" was never in this room to begin with lmao

But uhhh, being blunt with the contradictions part, ive read them and while i see your points in all this. I think trying to find contradictions in time and higher dimensional stuff like that when we have no clue how they function or if they even make sense to us irl let alone in a fictional metanarrative setting. Frisk reverses time yeah, but whos to say the previous progress he made doesnt branch off in its own timeline? Not everything has to be taken in a way that "makes sense more than anything" (not saying we should accept things that are actually contradicted or have truly little to no evidence). They refer to only one timeline a lot of the time yeah. But dont forget we have tonnes of verses that refer to a "timeline" or "universe" as a multiverse or higher in context (blazeblue, digimon, smt etc). Heck the same game uses "world" to refer to the entire games reality.

For the left off timelines, people may or may not be left off in those timelines, or the timelines could just become defunct, but it wouldnt really contradict much besides flowey and frisk more than likely not existing in those timelines (which would just give them time travel as well as time manip more than anything).

Also for goner kids evidence. He is absolutely referring to himself and not gaster. Hes not even a gaster follower or confirmed to be in any way besides being grey like the others and disappearing off camera eventually. Heck his placement on the fun value board is fundamentally different from the other followers. Fun values while they are only seen through hacking. Not only does toby know players will hack the game, but there is pretty much no reason for him to add a probability system into a metanarrative and actually have someone refference themselves not existing in "another world" whos existence is literally tied to said probability system and follows that perfectly, and said probability system not even being canon at all.

If you wanna say goner kid is probably just referring to there being a chance in him appearing or not appearing then go for it. But the point andys making is that its way more likely that someone being depressed about the idea of them straight up not existing in a different world and the games reality itself functioning perfectly without them as a pretty clear reference to that actually happening is a pretty strong indicator of alternate timelines more than some kind of probability. The whole logic of "theres many other ways that it can be explained" just seems like something that can be used to disregard any feat of piece of lore and hardly a contradiction a lot of the time tbh.

Agreeing on the weakness part btw. Another nitpick i have though is that id just have photoshop flowey as straight unknown with no 9-A considering how far he is above everyone including 1 soul which has always been unknown.

 

[RethPo]

But uhhh. Either we can leave it at that and just make the downgrades and someone can make a revision for a later time so making later changes is easier you prolly know nobodys gonna bother though. Orrr we could make a low 2-C possibly 2-B or 2-C rating and so were not just getting rid of a rating that hasnt even been close to fully agreed apon as being invalid.
Im relatively neutral at this point on what options better though i agree with 2-C or higher having sustanance to it.

 

[Antvasima]

So should Eficiente be allowed to go ahead then, given that Andy and Ultima do not respond?

 

[RethPo]

No, he has to get through me and my army of socks first. Well. I am bringing the suggestion of at least low 2-C possibly 2-B like said above but if Efficiency V feels better just going for just low 2-C atm im not all too bothered by it. Or you can give us your opinion if you have any ^_^

 

[Antvasima]

My attention is too divided to be able to evaluate properly, so I try to help keep the forum somewhat organised instead.

 

[Eficiente]

Boy weve making overly intellectualised theories on a few sentences from a 5 year old indie game to get power levels for a wiki that confines all of fiction to one system that runs on earth logic and whacky theories about higher planes of existence. "Intelligent" was never in this room to begin with lmao

This is a poor excuse and a thread like this should have no room for it.

Frisk reverses time yeah, but whos to say the previous progress he made doesnt branch off in its own timeline? Not everything has to be taken in a way that "makes sense more than anything" (not saying we should accept things that are actually contradicted or have truly little to no evidence). They refer to only one timeline a lot of the time yeah. But dont forget we have tonnes of verses that refer to a "timeline" or "universe" as a multiverse or higher in context (blazeblue, digimon, smt etc). Heck the same game uses "world" to refer to the entire games reality.

This has..some self-delution, I'll say, we don't say that they didn't left a timeline because it's never stated and it goes against what the lore says, as a standard take that's insane. We do have to do things that make sense and ignore the things that don't. Do not bring up other verses, Undertale doesn't have their inconsistencies and noticing something like it should have been a prioruty for you.

For the left off timelines, people may or may not be left off in those timelines, or the timelines could just become defunct, but it wouldnt really contradict much besides flowey and frisk more than likely not existing in those timelines (which would just give them time travel as well as time manip more than anything).

This ignores all the points against that.

Also for goner kids evidence. He is absolutely referring to himself and not gaster. Hes not even a gaster follower or confirmed to be in any way besides being grey like the others and disappearing off camera eventually. Heck his placement on the fun value board is fundamentally different from the other followers.

Not necessarily, he may not be a follower but there are factors you ignored like him talking about him without being a follower, indirectly saying something that fits to his story without him knowing him or Gaster having influenced the followers and him. As a mystery, just 100% saying that he wasn't referring to Gaster isn't a valid take over it being possible in context. The only way we know he's not a Gaster follower is via hacking the game, same with his placement on the fun value board, for all we know Toby could have added him later, after having added those 3 others guys.

Fun values while they are only seen through hacking. Not only does toby know players will hack the game

This is a cheap AF thing to say and doesn't make it canon anyway.

but there is pretty much no reason for him to add a probability system into a metanarrative and actually have someone refference themselves not existing in "another world" whos existence is literally tied to said probability system and follows that perfectly, and said probability system not even being canon at all.

Someone referring themselves as not existing in "another world" was just a thought in the air, his existence being tied to a probability system is a game mechanic not said in-game. He could just be referring to the system as a game mechanic, not a canon in-universe thing and he could be referring to all the other takes I gave above, including one where the system is canon but only changes the same timeline to make "other timeline/another world" like the lore of the game states, making everything fit and nothing going against that. You have no reason to say what you did.

If you wanna say goner kid is probably just referring to there being a chance in him appearing or not appearing then go for it. But the point andys making is that its way more likely that someone being depressed about the idea of them straight up not existing in a different world and the games reality itself functioning perfectly without them as a pretty clear reference to that actually happening is a pretty strong indicator of alternate timelines more than some kind of probability.

No, you made up the rules there. If there can be another timeline where he doesn't exist then the same timeline can be changed so that he doesn't exist (taking in that that's what he meant), the Goner Kid in the og timeline from the another timeline and the Goner Kid from the og timeline before being changed can both equally feel bad about not existing in another world, saying otherwise is lacking imagination. Saying one of the takes goes against what the lore states, saying the other fits in the lore, all the other takes also fit and go against what you say, I can say that there are intelligent and not intelligent ways of doing this, we just have to have some standards I believed we already had.

The whole logic of "theres many other ways that it can be explained" just seems like something that can be used to disregard any feat of piece of lore and hardly a contradiction a lot of the time tbh.

It's legit made to have many takes and have myssstery over it, don't be dishonest about it.

I'll have to ask you to please not further comment on the thread, aside from replies to this I guess.

 

[Antvasima]

So should Eficiente be allowed to go ahead then, given that Andy and Ultima do not respond?

 

[Eficiente]

@RethPo You're putting the thread out of control, Ant made an important question to 2 staff that may just get unmotivated to read the thread if they see a lot of comments in it, as they were things they didn't read before, your reply was pretty chaotic as some answers were just "No I didn't" and others had some logic that really seems like near trolling, you also didn't quote the parts you were replying to. We're not gonna settle for a possibly just to conform others, that's the type of things we just don't do and yet I can see you argue against and make me talk about it when I shouldn't. Please do not make any further comment.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Tbf both sides has others stuff which can work:

One timeline interpretation has the fact that Papyrus/Undyne remembers stuff after a regular reset as a form of deja-vu (paps with spaghetti and puzzle; Undyne with the event in her house)

But possibly 2-C could work with Sans especially mentionning "timelines" and Chara talking about "next world".

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Yuri.

 

[Eficiente]

But possibly 2-C could work with Sans especially mentionning "timelines" and Chara talking about "next world".

I went over what Sans said in my blog and that thing Chara said specifically goes in favor of there being only 1 timeline, they're clearly not destroying this "next" world with their attack, hence they will move on into it next, and if the Player replays this Chara is just annoyed that they keep messing with this world, it being the 1 timeline they destroyed before (or the planet, but really they always say world as in timeline). Giving what Chara says they are it's pretty clear that they mean for the Player to go to some other game in general and start becoming stronger by killing, this ignoring what happened in Deltarune.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Chara point seems good. Sans stuff I saw, but it would be more logic if the sentence was "timeline" at singular.

Tho it's too minor even for a possibly, with all the others evidences

 

[Eficiente]

Well, it wouldn't make more logic, it would only be more clear for us to get it. It makes perfect logic as it is just like, say, Doc in Back to the Future talking about an alteration in the timeline letting him and Marty in other "reality", with the past of it being the same as their og reality and that verse only having 1 timeline.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Well, it wouldn't make more logic, it would only be more clear for us to get it. It makes perfect logic as it is just like, say, Doc in Back to the Future talking about an alteration in the timeline letting him and Marty in other "reality", with the past of it being the same as their og reality and that verse only having 1 timeline.

That's actually what I meant "by more logic". Like, it would have been clearer.

I still agree with the downgrade anyway.

 

[RethPo]

So akm has given me permission to recomment. I do admit my post could have been organised and though out way better. But i do feel it brings up a lot that could be helpful to andy and ultima if they comment. So imma just screenshot that here. Lefishiente can comment on that if he wants. Anyway like i said, im alright with the downgrades going through, though a possibly rating could be on the table since there is pretty heavy indications of multiple timelines (mind you a lot of people even outside scaling do believe in as a sidenote). Think andy or ultima can have their say on that and if not then, im aight with them going through and leaving that for possibly later.

Btw, i do wanna add ps flowey works better as unknown if not tier 2. Not only is one individual listed at that, but an individual soul posesses the power of every monster in the underground which is hundreds to thousands. Him being unknown at least 9-A doesnt really seem realistic at all.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/c/c7/20210222_205743.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20210223195310

 

[RethPo]

@Yuri Well for chara refering to "another world" which is prolly another game symbolically speaking. It wouldnt make them above low 2-C since that would make it another reality theyre gonna move onto before destroying the current one. The only way the characters can actually scale to a multiverse is if you can prove that the supposed multiverse exists in "the game" which would only be possible through either save and load creating timelines or fun values.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Eficiente can probably proceed with what has been accepted then.

 

[Eficiente]

I would need this profiles unlocked:

• Frisk
• Flowey
• Chara
• The Anomaly

 

[RethPo]

These two as well

Ahh make it three

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Also Underground

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I unlocked them, tell me when you're done.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Medeus.

 

[RethPo]

Aight, ive helped with most of the downgrades because Eficiente wasnt being efficient enough. The profiles can be locked though i dont know if anythings happening with the anomaly.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

@Eficiente

Would you be willing to verify that all of the edits have been properly applied please?

 

[RethPo]

They have... I did also take some outdated stuff off charas dura however involving being an abstract. I think LeFishiente au chocolat also wants to add his blog to the profiles although it seems like it would be better to put that on the verse page instead.

 

[Antvasima]

Did you remember to carefully read through and follow the instructions in our Common Editing Mistakes page, so no badly structured edits were made?

Anyway, please stop being rude to Eficiente.

 

[RethPo]

Oh come on, my nicknames r funni ;_;

But yeah double checked and they seem good. Also did restructure the souls page a little bit with keys since that was outdated and would have been a redundant unknown page and it seems okay.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out. I will wait for a bit more community input though.

 

[Eficiente]

Seems like some things deemed wrong in other CRTs were still in the profiles. The changes are done, although things like match-ups still need to be removed.

I'll soon make other CRT for the verse, link it here and then close this one.

 

[Abstractions]

Seems like some things deemed wrong in other CRTs were still in the profiles. The changes are done, although things like match-ups still need to be removed.

I'll soon make other CRT for the verse, link it here and then close this one.

Feel free to comment here in the meantime.