MASSIVE Tekken Downgrades

[Continuum19]

I'm unreasonable because I won't close this thread even though there are disagreements I still want to hash out with the community?

That's a ridiculous standard.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Contunuum19 doesn't need to be knowledgeable on the verse in order to see that the previous calc was wrong, because it is very blatantly wrong.
He also noticed that their weren't any other feats that came close to that value, once again something you don't need to be an expert on the verse to notice.
He made this thread so the actual experts (Who haven't been active besides you) will come out and debate this claims.
He never mentioned himself having anything other than basic knowledge on the verse.

Which brings us to you.

You need to provide evidence in the form of feats on that level, which you have yet to do. If they exist once again let me know and I will calc them, otherwise we are free to continue debating.

I said in previous comments, either saman or somebody else or both, that its a lot more going on that, i cant really post them just like that, cuz i gotta explain all that along much more going in regards to the verse powerscaling too and that will take too long to do, let alone to phrase them up and such, thats why i had them for these CRTs in the future, i dont have that kind of time for it nowadays, thats why i kept asking to rather wait till then

It's best you do this now as to prove that this thread is redundant. If you cannot prove it then that means your new CRT would have never have passed in the first place.

 

[SirAlex09]

but there have been far too many whataboutism heavy motives for downgrading verses as of late.

It seems not everything was whataboutism , no?

 

[Hellbeast]

Can you stop with this mentality regarding fighting games on not using them, what if scenarios have no reason to be ignored, regardless if they happened or not and you claiming arent intended to be lined up in power scaling is wrong as well, if a character shows they destroy a city, we have no reason to assume they cant possibly do it, unless its inconsistent

I mean if you have to concede it never happens but still say "it's totally valid though" for scaling, you don't have the best case. We even ignore arcade endings for Mortal Kombat so we have this precedent of arcade endings being invalid unless they're canon. I've long maintained this is a bizarre standard we have for fighting games and I'm not entirety sure why we do this

idk ain't my verse

True, I don't really care for Tekken either, I just find this an incredibly bizarre standard

 

[BlackDarkness679]

It's best you do this now as to prove that this thread is redundant. If you cannot prove it then that means your new CRT would have never have passed in the first place.

My guy i already told you in the reply to your previous comment, i dont have that time as of now, its too long to give it as summary only and it ties to other stuff that

Its not about a matter of not able to prove it, but one of needing a CRT for it instead of throwning it around like that in a hurry, i seen other verses drop their CRTs by users till a bigger and better one is done in the future so then any changes can be done then, why are we insisting to rush this one to go on here in comparison unlike others

Also i told you above in regards to the calc at 6-B already in previous reply to you and if you really need other feats to check for tier 6, then wait till im out of work to look up and give some

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, @SamanPatou . So what do you think should be done here?

@KingEzran @Oleggator @Zencha9

Your input would also be very appreciated here.

@SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Abstractions

Are any of you willing to help out as well?

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I mean if you have to concede it never happens but still say "it's totally valid though" for scaling, you don't have the best case. We even ignore arcade endings for Mortal Kombat so we have this precedent of arcade endings being invalid unless they're canon.

First of all, mortal kombat is and im gonna be honest here, horrible with the profiles, let alone what was done with it ever since the staff that retired later has done a CRT on it, so dont bring it up here with their faulty stuff you along some have changed it

You have stuff like darkstalkers using Morrigan ending she beats pyron for more on her AP justification, or haxes of hers from endings were she loses to others

You have Street Fighter with Bison nuking the capital of thailand from a what if ending or Ryu incinerating Seth in an ending to justify a hax of his, you have Gill with his most well known feat on his profile

All these things accepted from CRT done

I've long maintained this is a bizarre standard we have for fighting games and I'm not entirety sure why we do this

Its not a bizarre standard, by your logic, we should restrict characters capabilities just cuz you wanna nitpick and its not sitting right with you, unless its inconsistent stuff like a fodder beating a final boss or a character having a feat too inconsistent for its regular showings, there is no reason to ignore it and sane should go to mortal kombat

 

[Antvasima]

Aren't the alternate endings of fighting games all in relation to the intended character power levels?

 

[Continuum19]

Aren't the alternate endings of fighting games all in relation to the intended character power levels?

Could you be more specific with your wording?

 

[Antvasima]

I meant that most of them seem intended to showcase things that the fighters could do in theory, including feat-wise.

 

[Continuum19]

Yeah.

That seems about right.

A good example of that would be Ken's Street Fighter Alpha 3 ending.

In Ken's non canon ending he beat Bison in a fight.

Which is consistent with the fact that Ryu beat Bison canonically in the same game.

Ken is comparable to Ryu so it makes sense that Ken would also be able to beat Bison.

 

[Continuum19]

Though having said all of that I still personally think it would be better to use strict canon for feats and scaling for all fighting game verses.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, then we likely would end up with having almost no good feats to scale from.

 

[Continuum19]

Street Fighter, Tekken, Mortal Kombat, KOF, Killer Instinct,.Darkstalkers, Dead or Alive and Guilty Gear would be fine.

There are plenty of 100% canon feats to use for scaling.

Keep in mind I'm only talking about endings that explicitly contradict canon.

 

[MrHazama]

Street Fighter, Tekken, Mortal Kombat, KOF, Killer Instinct,.Darkstalkers, Dead or Alive and Guilty Gear would be fine.

There are plenty of 100% canon feats to use for scaling.

Keep in mind I'm only talking about endings that explicitly contradict canon.

Funny you mentioned Guilty Gear, that verse needs another fix

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I mentioned above that things like fodder beating a final boss or inconsistent feats arent counted, showcasing hax and feats are fair game

And no, canon ones arent enough, especially on lesser characters that unlike the more popular ones or the main characters, dont have as much material to them going

 

[Continuum19]

For all of the verses that I just mentioned canon material is more than enough.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Its not and you dont decide that how it should be

Literally no reason as to why to ignore what ifs, we cut away material from them

 

[Continuum19]

Firstly, Yes it can.

Secondly, I never proposed any revisions based on fighting game canon specifically.

Antvasima asked so I was gave my perspective.

 

[SamanPatou]

I'll give input in the actual thread later, but I want to address a few things.

Ryu incinerating Seth in an ending to justify a hax of his

Nitpick, but this ending is canon, since that was one of the other 24/27 Seth clones that are canonically weaker than the main one.

I meant that most of them seem intended to showcase things that the fighters could do in theory, including feat-wise.

It really depends on the game.
Sometimes there's the "main ending" where the mc beats the boss, and the others are what ifs more or less likely to happen
.
Other times they just show a generic instance of what the characters does after the events of the game are over, without even referencing the boss.

You just have to scrutinize the single ones, I could name 20 fighting games each with their own rules regarding the endings.
My stance remains that if they don't contradict canon material, I consider them fine to be used.

That seems about right.
A good example of that would be Ken's Street Fighter Alpha 3 ending.
In Ken's non canon ending he beat Bison in a fight.
Which is consistent with the fact that Ryu beat Bison canonically in the same game.
Ken is comparable to Ryu so it makes sense that Ken would also be able to beat Bison.

Not really, in that game Bison is even stronger than normal, and canonically Ryu manages to defeat him only when he unleashes the Satsui no Hado.
In the same game literally everyone can defeat Bison, from Akuma to Dan, sometimes they even oneshot him after he regains full health.


To sum up, when you have stuff like "what if Bison actually triggered his secret weapon?" is a good way to gauge its strength, while "what if Chun-Li could kill Bison?" serves no purpose (from a vs perspective) and is just plainly wrong when compared to the rest of the character's displays of strength.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

I'm inclined to go with BlackDarkness here as far too many verses accept alternate endings as canon to disregard the feats presented here as non-canon.
Though like you said it should be done on a case-by-case basis, however I believe BlackDarkness to be the person that makes this decision as he is the most knowledgeable on the verse and one of the only supporters still active.

However BlackDarkness if you really cannot explain as to why these tiers should stay without a CRT then I believe it is best to let this CRT play out,
because you can always change it later in your new CRT

 

[Continuum19]

Not really, in that game Bison is even stronger than normal, and canonically Ryu manages to defeat him only when he unleashes the Satsui no Hado.
In the same game literally everyone can defeat Bison, from Akuma to Dan, sometimes they even oneshot him after he regains full health.T

To sum up, when you have stuff like "what if Bison actually triggered his secret weapon?" is a good way to gauge its strength, while "what if Chun-Li could kill Bison?" serves no purpose (from a vs perspective) and is just plainly wrong when compared to the rest of the character's displays of strength.

Bison was actually weaker than normal during Alpha 3.

He needed a new body to host his Psycho Power because his current one couldn't handle it.

At the very beginning of Ryu's ending he already defeated Bison once.

He just had to tap into the Dark Hado to actually destroy Bison.

 

[SamanPatou]

I don't want to turn this into a SF thread, but basically Bison's power was both growing and empowered by the Psycho Drive, thus he needed a new host.
And you don't have to just check Ryu's ending, since it's flawed, but the other textual sources and references that came later, let alone the fact that Ryu was later shown to be weaker than characters who in turn are weaker than Bison.

But that's enough, this isn't the place to talk about this.

 

[Continuum19]

It's explicitly stated that Bison's current body can't handle the output but whatever.

I'll drop this for now.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

However BlackDarkness if you really cannot explain as to why these tiers should stay without a CRT then I believe it is best to let this CRT play out,
because you can always change it later in your new CRT

Why cant we just do changes in the future instead, i literally see no purpose to let this go through, just to change later afterwards yet again

Other threads i saw to change profiles after their big CRT rather then change from those like this

Its more work added and im not willing to have more added on me, especially on a verse wide thing

 

[Antvasima]

So do you mostly agree with each other here, @SamanPatou and @BlackDarkness679 ?

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Can you be more specific, if you mean in regards to most of the OP arguments, then yes

 

[Continuum19]

So do you mostly agree with each other here, @SamanPatou and @BlackDarkness679 ?

SamanPatou was about 50/50 on my CRT and BlackDarkness disagreed with everything.

 

[SamanPatou]

What if we could just settle on the meteor calc for the time being?
Like, leaving the rest for the future, but at least decide on which calc is better?

I'll ask more calc members to provide opinions.

 

[Continuum19]

What if we could just settle on the meteor calc for the time being?
Like, leaving the rest for the future, but at least decide on which calc is better?

I'll ask more calc members to provide opinions.

I'm fine with that.

 

[RanaProGamer]

What if we could just settle on the meteor calc for the time being?
Like, leaving the rest for the future, but at least decide on which calc is better?

I'll ask more calc members to provide opinions.

I actually agree, we’ve been having too many topics in just one CRT. If the main OP about Jack 6’s feat can be settled now, it’s for the best.

 

[Hellbeast]

Aren't the alternate endings of fighting games all in relation to the intended character power levels?

Depends, which characters are we talking? Becuase most if not all arcade endings involve the character killing the final boss

First of all, mortal kombat is and im gonna be honest here, horrible with the profiles, let alone what was done with it ever since the staff that retired later has done a CRT on it, so dont bring it up here with their faulty stuff you along some have changed it

You have stuff like darkstalkers using Morrigan ending she beats pyron for more on her AP justification, or haxes of hers from endings were she loses to others

You have Street Fighter with Bison nuking the capital of thailand from a what if ending or Ryu incinerating Seth in an ending to justify a hax of his, you have Gill with his most well known feat on his profile

All these things accepted from CRT done

Its not a bizarre standard, by your logic, we should restrict characters capabilities just cuz you wanna nitpick and its not sitting right with you, unless its inconsistent stuff like a fodder beating a final boss or a character having a feat too inconsistent for its regular showings, there is no reason to ignore it and sane should go to mortal kombat

1) Then fix it if there's a problem 2) Both verses you mentioned are completely fine without using feats from arcade endings, there's no real necessity to use them 3) Keep on topic

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Any moderators wanna summon some calc members?

 

[SamanPatou]

Already done, just wait for them

 

[BlackDarkness679]

1) Then fix it if there's a problem

Lost case, i see no use to it if you and the rest that involved themselves in it still run that outdated mentality

2) Both verses you mentioned are completely fine without using feats from arcade endings, there's no real necessity to use them

By your faulty logic, not using the things mentioned means cutting them away from the profile out, aka none of the haxes nor feats, which case SF high 7-A feat disappears dropping characters at town to city level range just cuz what ifs are not usable by you, try again

3) Keep on topic

You derailed by bringing MK in here with arcade endings here, which again is horrible with the stats, let alone the split decision as well

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, SamanPatou.

 

[Oleggator]

Gotta say regardless of how opinion on the meteor feat exactly would go whenever it's country level or island level considering it as outlier is a no go to me personally.

Initially outliers are made if feat is at all inconsistent with what shown in the series. Like, if Jack-6 feat happened but not a single character never performed a feat higher than building level and scale of fights would've been only street level then it would've been considered as outlier, take one of the recent Spy X Family feats for instance, feat is massively strong and massively larger in scale than anything in SxF verse therefore it is an outlier. On Tekken's case however verse grows massively in scale of its fights, even Building-CB-ish feats are like not a big trouble (even for characters that not considered as strong per say) to perform. And more series grows the further scale rises (as well as more world threatening beings it has). Sure Jack-6 ain't a god-tier but it is an robot who went further after his previous counterpart and grew in power/scale.

Also Lifting Strength does not equal to AP so I don't know why it being brought up to prove for AP feat to be an outlier but even then I don't see those feats were shown to as hard to perform (or as their limits).

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

take one of the recent Spy X Family feats for instance, fea

Bad exemple, it was calced and accepeted as 9-B+

 

[Oleggator]

Bad exemple, it was calced and accepeted as 9-B+

Dunno about you but I have seen a version has this at like, country level.

If it doesn't works for you though, it's alright, Family Guy's cutaway gags/feats can also serve as similar example.

 

[Continuum19]

Gotta say regardless of how opinion on the meteor feat exactly would go whenever it's country level or island level considering it as outlier is a no go to me personally.

Initially outliers are made if feat is at all inconsistent with what shown in the series. Like, if Jack-6 feat happened but not a single character never performed a feat higher than building level and scale of fights would've been only street level then it would've been considered as outlier, take one of the recent Spy X Family feats for instance, feat is massively strong and massively larger in scale than anything in SxF verse therefore it is an outlier. On Tekken's case however verse grows massively in scale of its fights, even Building-CB-ish feats are like not a big trouble (even for characters that not considered as strong per say) to perform. And more series grows the further scale rises (as well as more world threatening beings it has). Sure Jack-6 ain't a god-tier but it is an robot who went further after his previous counterpart and grew in power/scale.

Also Lifting Strength does not equal to AP so I don't know why it being brought up to prove for AP feat to be an outlier but even then I don't see those feats were shown to as hard to perform (or as their limits).

AP and lifting strength downgrades are being treated separately.

Additionally, I can't really tell whether or not you consider Jack-6's feat to be an outlier or not based on your comment.