Marvel CRT: 2-A Cosmic Cube & Tier 1 Realities

[Antvasima]

Regular Galactus being able to destroy the multiverse togeher with Scrier and the Other also seems like a massive outlier.

 

[Antvasima]

As Sandman31 mentioned, this is also the typical DeMatteis cosmology of "Physical reality is an illusion, and everybody is 1-A" that he brings anywhere he goes, regardless whether or not it fits with everything else that has been established about the cosmology of the settings.

Mind you, I personally like DeMatteis. He seems like a nice guy, and showed a great sense of humour in his Justice League runs, but nevertheless.

 

[LordTracer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't Galactus, Scrier and Other only stated to be destroying all universes in their clash, making it a 2-A feat?

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure, but that is not how I remember it.

 

[LordTracer]

Here we go, Oblivion says; "Well, then the Chaos War was merely a prelude. And the annihilation of all universes- is just a heartbeat away." And when Galactus confronts Scrier, he says; "You have been playing your inscrutable game since time's dawn- with all the universes as your pawns."

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

The problem is the Chaos War itself undeniably was the destruction of higher dimensions, not just universes. @Ant.... We ignored the Shamballa comic where that theory about the physical reality being an illusion as that part isn't canon or referenced.... as the Men od Lineage was.

You are ignoring the part of the discussion me and Prince had that the concepts of reality being a dream was hinted throughout many other canonical works besides the ones mentioned above and Ka'dmon later referred to being an abstract was canon. It was not ignored Antvasima ... Merely integrated. So please don't say it was ignored when:

• During the Defenders 2005 comic they refer to transcending the dream.
• Kadmon , one of the Fallen Stars, also shows up in Ghost Rider BTW so he wasn't apparently ignored.
• Chaos War itself takes about how all reality is a dream and connected to the Creator... It was a concept referenced years afterward... If it wasn't considered legitimate they would've left it alone , but it wasn't.
• The Fallen Stars was mentioned in the hanbook / guides as canon so yeah it wasn't forgotten.
• If it was ignored by DeMatteis than the Fallen Stars wouldn't have continued after that part, but his concepts remain relevant as reality being part of a dream even afterward. We can't just throw this out because at least from the handbook they acknowledge it , that was years after the fallen stars last appearance.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Bump. Since this is a general revision I'd like to talk about Well Fed Galactus , Mad Celestials, and Franklin:

I vehemently disagree with them being supposedly equal with the regular Celestials when the feats and scaling contradict it hard.... Even from the mouth of the person who said such. For a few Examples:

• After Heroes Reborn Franklin was described as being far beyond the Celestials he met at 616 during the Reborn incident that a multitude of statements describe how easily he can squash them or stomp them... So Hickman's statement doesn't add up here. He was also considered enough of a threat for Eternity himself to show up and judge himself... Which he didn't for anything prior and remember heroes reborn the regular Celestials seen in 616 are viewed as nothing to Eternity ... So Franklin being enough of a threat to be judged by Eternity and get his attentions makes no sense if he was equal to the Celestials.
• Then like previously stated he was described to be a complete threat when the Ultimate Nullifier used at max concentration by Reed wasn't considered as big of a threat... When Reed using it before affected Multi Eternity and restarted the Multiverse. Uatu called him a threat essentially to the Multiverse despite both Eternity being there... So again it's confusing.
• Later on performs feats such as injuring Multi-Eternity as a byproduct of reviving Galactus which results in burning out his powers. The only other time a feat caused him to burn out was reviving Galactus during Hickman's Run... Meaning there is a massive discrepancy here. The time between Hickman's Run and Abraxas was significantly shortened so he didn't get any stronger between then.
• Even Hickman himself contradicts himself when he says that Well Fed Galactus and Lifebringer are in the same realm of power. That makes absolutely no sense if the Mad Celestials are equal to 616's Celestials.

There are other statements like Franklin (Adrer Heroes Reborn) was described as the strongest mutant a stupid amount of times even after Meggan performed the feat of pushing back the Chaos Wave & Scarlet Witch used the Chaos Wave. Scarlet even compared the Chaos Wave to Franklin directly in power so there is a lot of problematic stuff about treating them as only equal to the 616 Celestials.

Also the Multiversal Phoenix Force is nowhere near the strongest Multiversal Abstract. Sure she's high 1B, but it's canonically been compared to Galactus and the Celestials multiple times and even amongst the Abstracts isn't anywhere near as strong as the Multiverse Abstracts despite supposedly being comparable in nature.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

Please try to stick to the main topic so the thread doesn't get more and more bogged down as time progresses.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Sorry about that. Anyways if the m bodies can perform a feat of this caliber during the Quasar arc it doesn't stand to reason why they can't the most acknowledge and offically stated most powerful m bodies of the abstracts [616] be at that level. The main argument is that it was ignored... But it was included in a guidebook years after the end of the storyline so it wasn't ignored plus the dream of reality part has a lot more weight to being a part of the canon than reality being an illusion [ I know Prince didn't say that but Ant did which was why i mentioned it ] since Shamballa was only ever mentioned once. That is my counter.

Also Fantastic Four made mention of it as well , from Tiamuts' statement about The Celestials coming before the dream as well... So once again a comic having nothing to do with DeMatteis references the idea of reality being a dream.

 

[Antvasima]

I am afraid that I have grown completely tired of reading and evaluating Seed's rambling walls of text after over 3 years of a relentless stream of them, so I would appreciate if Sandman31 and POTM help out with handling this. I am way too overworked to properly do so.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

@Ant It wasn't the full 3 years though but I get your point. My main point right now is concepts like Tiamut the Dreaming Celestial is stated that the Celestials predated the dream of reality explicitly [which isn't even a part of DeMatteis work but is Hickman... Meaning even Hickman acknowledges it in his lore which is important for Hickman's Run] , Defenders 2005 mentions the dream , as well as Thor's Chaos War.

So the point is Marvel doesn't ignore it as recent events depict the dream as an important cosmic event, and the guidebook entry about the Fallen Stars helps the notion that not only is it supposedly important to recent events but that Marvel acknowledges the event as well. And BTW this is also important, Cleito (of the Fallen Stars) seems to be either directly related to Gaea, or is Gaea.... Which actually makes sense considering how she did the whole turning Hercules into his God Empowered self... Though I understand why that may be seen as contradictory.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I have apparently turned so tired of your repetitive droning and confused obsessive arguments that I am almost unable to at all focus on what you are saying anymore. My apologies, but I automatically start to zone out when I try to focus. It doesn't happen with any other member that I can recall.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

@Seed

Where K'ad-mon called an abstract?

@Ant

I'll try to condense his argument:

• Reality has been referred to as a dream several times outside of DeMatteis. The Fallen Stars have also been referenced in Marvel's official handbook.

• Franklin shouldn't scale to normal Celestials, as he has more instances of being far above normal ones. He has other feats that are arguably High 1-B, such as manipulating the Multiverse's super-structure to help rebuild Multi-Eternity after Secret Wars and being considered relevant to Multi-Eternity's power level during the Abraxas saga.

• Well-Fed Galactus is the one who performed the High 1-B feat with Scrier and the Other, and the only one who scales to him is the fused super Celestial.

• During the Quasar fight, the universal abstracts of Infinity and Oblivion were operating on the highest level of reality, which was judged to be High 1-B.

 

[Antvasima]

1) Which stories, and what did the handbooks say about the Fallen Stars?

2) I am uncertain. Marvel is inconsistent regarding whether its multiverse is a 2-A or High 1-B structure, depending on the story. After the Secret Wars Franklin was also strictly shown as creating universes one at a time, which the Molecule Man reorganised into the larger multiversal structure.

3) High 1-B still seems like a massive outlier for Galactus. I would prefer more input from Matthew Schroeder, Kepekley23, Crimson Azoth, and others before we start to completely mess up the consistency of our Marvel scaling structure.

4) We would have to consider them as the multiversal versions in that case, even if they were not explicitly referred to as such.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Thank you Prince... As for which story it was the one where Man-Thing was seen in Overspace alongside the Abstracts. I can't remember which one but it's scan was used on the site before. Also Kadmon was described to have relation to Eternity so this isn't anyway a stretch at all.

As for @Ant:

1) The handbooks reiterated the story of the Strange Tales and Man Thing, and the Multiverse Collapse. It also mentioned a tie in to the canon that it takes place prior to Heroes Reborn. The stories are Vol 3 of Fantastic Four [which was tied into Hickman's Run & Heroes Reborn so they are a part of it], Chaos War ,


2) Which the universes were used to recreate a High 1B cosmology as the Crossroads of Infinity were mentioned during Secret Wars and Secret Wars is the offical continuation of Ultimates, where Galactus got his Lifebringer upgrade and became High 1B ... So again another reason why we should just use " 2A , possibly High 1B "


3) One I already contacted all the knowledgable members so it's more of a waiting game. Two I'm uncertain as marvel tends to do that with cosmologies a lot... Ultimates was defined as 2As sometimes yet High 1B in others such as the highest level of existence being mentioned during Galactus against the Lords of Order and Chaos . It's why I suggested " 2A, possibly High 1B" for those who scaled in the past but that was rejected for... I don't remember why. And you are considering this to mess up when only those scaling > Well Fed Galactus and Franklin would scale to this... and they don't scale to regular Celestials.


4) They explicitly stated after the feat it was their M Bodies so we can't assume it was their full selves. 616 would scale as they were stated as the strongest m bodies.

 

[Antvasima]

Situations like this make me think that Ultima Reality likely has the right idea regarding his upcoming tiering system revision, as none of the characters that you wish to raise to High 1-B were remotely intended to be an infinity^infinity times more powerful than destroying infinite universes in one go. In fact, Franklin spent almost his entire power reservoir from repeated Low 2-C feats.

Speaking of which, I would appreciate if somebody asks Ultima, together with the people I mentioned earlier, to comment here.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Which was after he performed several feats which completely contradict his "Universal Shaper" power level.... Which the reason he was spent was because he was on the lowest possible extent of his power from overusing it from Hickman's Run as mentioned after the events. Also you are forgetting the whole thing about Griever stating in the same comic that both Frankie and Owen were stated as being able to manipulate the Multiverse outright.... That was direct, no strings attached

 

[PsychoWarper]

I mean its not uncommon in Marvel or DC for someone to easily preform a High 1-B feat then have issues with a Low 2-C feat, thats just how comics are unfourtunatly.

And are you talking about the more Mathematical based tiering system over the Dimensional tiering system? (Which isnt even confirmed to be accepted yet since it must be purposed and accepted first).

 

[LordTracer]

Just gonna bump this, as Oblivion himself seemed to think this is only a 2-A feat, which is much more reasonable than High 1-B.

 

[Antvasima]

I am far too tired, distracted, and overworked to be able to waste a lot of time arguing about this. I would appreciate if somebody can contact all of the people that I mentioned earlier to help out. Thank you.

For the record, I still think that assigning any High 1-B to Franklin and the universal cosmic entities seem like enormous unreliable outliers that would mess up our scaling, and Franklin was only explicitly shown to create universes, one at a time, which was also stated to be the upper limit of his former power in the Griever story, that's it.

I also find Seed insanely tiresome and time-wasting to handle, after a massive number of times having to deal with him over the years, and Matthew has turned even more tired of him than I am, as he just ignores any of Seed's rambling and confused walls of text at this point.

Then again, as I mentioned, I am very tired and busy, and do not have the time and energy for this.

 

[PsychoWarper]

How you or Matt personally feel about Seed means nothing, if his argument is invalid then its invalid, if theres some validity in it then it should be paid attention to (It would help if Seed stayed on topic better) if you are tired and dont want to deal with Seed then let POTM and the other people knowledgable on Marvel handle it, then at the end of the thread you can simply ask POTM or someone like that their thoughts and to some it up to see if anything should be changed or not.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, I would prefer if Sandman, POTM, and the staff members that I mentioned handle this. Is somebody willing to contact them?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Last thing I'll say to you Ant since it's clear you don't want to discuss this with me any longer: Again Secret Wars contradicted that by saying he was messing with the superstructure of the Multiverse and called by Griever as a God capable of manipulating the Multiverse. If creating universes was the limit of his power than why was these two feats he did literally right before without any strain or effort ?

We contacted them already. Matthew is out of the question for obvious reasons so it's a waiting game to see if the others come and what they respond with.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Bump. I contacted all the staff members... Like I mentioned a few times in previous posts. So far none of them have responded besides Prince. What do we do if they don't respond ?

Also Prince I understand you summed my previous counterpoints... Do you have any concerns with them specifically or are you fine with them ?

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

@Tracer

That's what I personally think about it too, but when I brought it up a while ago it was judged a High 1-B outlier since the destruction was a replacement for the Chaos King's failure back in the Chaos War.

@Seed

To be honest, I lean more toward Ant's point of view. That's not to say I think the Fallen Star stuff is illegitimate or anything, I think it's legit on its ow. In most appearances as well as all his most recent and major appearances, Franklin isn't depicted anywhere near High 1-B, or even 2-A. In Well-Fed Galactus' case, his well-fed state is still logically only comparable to universal abstracts at the very most, and I still don't believe they should be rated the same as their Multiversal counterparts based on one instance from Quasar.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

... So what can I do to prove otherwise then ? I'm not sure how exactly to prove to you otherwise in a verse that's known for the most inconsistent crap in the world. Every feat I prove can just be disproven by literally 2 statements because inconsistency is a thing in all of them. Now I see why Matthew and Ant have nothing to do with me anymore. Because to them the inconsistency will always win no matter what is supplied, and I'm the embodiment of everything they don't want to see in Marvel.

Sorry about that. Anyways I'm honestly not sure how exactly to prove it at this point. I feel like as long as that inconsistency is there I can't do anything. If you say I can't do anything you can just close it and I'll shut up and don't have to worry Antvasima anymore.

 

[LordTracer]

@Prince

Oblivion only gives a passing mention to Mikaboshi and the Chaos War though, I doubt the three-way clash was meant to surpass the destruction of the Chaos War especially when Oblivion explicitly states that it would only be all universes that are destroyed.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

@Tracer

You're preaching to the choir, that was my thought process as well.

@Seed

Try to get more input from knowledgeable members, especially the ones Ant said up above.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Alright then... I'll message them as soon as I'm able.. Not saying I'm going to do this.... But do you think I'll find more success trying to argue DeMatteis and the version of comics connected to them as separate from the canon continuity or continue down this path ?

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with POTM and Tracer about their last posts.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, somebody should contact Matthew Schroeder, Kepekley23, Ultima Reality, Sandman31, and Crimson Azoth to give further input here.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, just a note that I have nothing whatsoever against Seed on a personal level. He seems to be a nice person, and I can obviously relate to the problems with being autistic. I just find his obsessive nature about this topic, combined with his constant confused interpretations of a massive number of scans, very tiresome to deal with after a few years of repetition.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

I've contacted Matt, Kep, Ultima, Sandman, and Crimson. For their convenience, I'm providing a summary of where this thread is currently at:

Argument for a 2-A, possibly High 1-B upgrade

• The Men of Lineage like K'ad-mon can actively undream creation should they choose, and it is their role to constantly maintain it. When Man-Thing, containing all of K'ad-mon's power as well as the power of their entire race, confronts Scrier, Scrier states he's more powerful, treats Man-Thing like a lesser, and states that he could kill Man-Thing. Later on, in a story from the same author, Franklin Richards channels so much energy into Man-Thing that the latter started dying, despite holding within him all the power shown above and being fine.

• In a later storyline, Mighty Thor Annual 2012, is the currently-deemed-outlier feat of Galactus/Scrier/Other nearly destroying creation. A few think this is just 2-A, however.

• The dream cosmology has been referenced many times outside of this one storyline.

• The handbook referenced the Multiversal collapse storyline that happened due to one of the dreamers.

• Franklin doesn't scale to normal Celestials, his fight with the Mad Celestials is actually a low-end compared to statements about being comparable or greater than their strongest. He also harmed Multi-Eternity in the Abraxas storyline and was stated to have manipulated the multiverse's super-structure. The rebuilt 8th Multi-Eternity is his and Molecule Man's doing.

• Normal Galactus doesn't scale to this, only his well-fed key does, and the only characters who scale to that are the Mad Celestials' fusion, the strongest Celestials, the universal abstracts, and the Infinity Gauntlet.

• The abstract beings' universal M-bodies were shown to operate on the highest level of reality in the Quasar storyline with Oblivion and Infinity.

Argument against the upgrade

• There is potential for a massive scaling nightmare where far too many characters can be easily scaled to High 1-B despite never being depicted that way.

• The entire dream cosmology seems to contradict the currently accepted history of the multiverse (First Firmament and successive Multi-Eternities), although this is not necessarily a hard contradiction.

• Well-fed Galactus threatening creation along with the two others seems like a big outlier since this key was attained by just consuming a few more planets than normal.

• Franklin's power was shown to be exhausted after repeatedly creating universes alongside Molecule Man (note, however, that this is seemingly a matter of interpretation, as it was still their actions that reformed the Multi-Eternity).

• Universal Abstracts being High 1-B seems outlierish in general, as that is what their Multiversal selves are rated.

 

[Antvasima]

Just a note that it was the Molecule Man who recreated both Franklin and the multiverse. Franklin was simply shown to provide the universes one at a time.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, when exactly has the dream cosmology been referenced elsewhere, much less "many times"?

 

[Antvasima]

Franklin did not harm Multi-Eternity in the Abraxas storyline afaIk. The Ultimate Nullifier did.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, the Galactus/Scrier/Other feat consisted of them throwing some small force blasts at each other with a claim that this would destroy all universes. Even that seems like an outlier for them though, and it was likely one of the stories in which the Marvel multiverse was depicted as a mere collection of universes, rather than consisting of higher-dimensional infinities.

 

[Kepekley23]

That possibly High 1-B sounds relatively ridiculous/unreasonable, just from skimming this thread.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

So you don't have to sort through everything above:

• According to Seed, the dream cosmology has also been referenced by Tiamut (though no issue or run was given), as well as in Defenders 2005 and Chaos War: Thor. The latter two are DeMatteis runs.

• As for harming Multi-Eternity, Seed stated he was referring to how when Franklin revived Galactus, the energy being released was making Eternity/Infinity scream in pain. Issue can be read here.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, has it ever been referenced by other writers than DeMatteis? As Sandman31 has mentioned, DeMatteis tends to impose his "reality is a dream and everybody are 1-A" religious philosophy on any stories that he writes, regardless if it fits at all with the established cosmology of the setting.