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Marvel CRT: 2-A Cosmic Cube & Tier 1 Realities

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The_2nd_Existential_Seed

The_2nd_Existential_Seed

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Introductio

Hello everyone. This is the continuation of this thread . 2-A was accepted among-st the majority... And we can continue to perhaps come to an agreement on the Cosmic Cubes scaling to 2-A and reach an agreement. I'm also here to prove that realities in Marvel can be conceived as having more than four dimensions in terms of AP, which has been shown theoughout all manners of Marvel. For this to work actually, I need to show a direct showings of these events before I make any clear implications... So here I go. Also note nothing DeMatteis' related will be used for this thread... It will all be canon Marvel stuff.


Hyperspace , Subspace , The Crossroads of Infinity , and Other Inconsistencies

Basically the above is saying that Tier 1 Realities were a thing from the original guides describing the Multiverse to the more current and unretconned events.

Earth 616



Consistency:of this Feat of 616 being 2-A or Far Higher

  • [Heroes Reborn: Asheena ] : Despite the fact that Tiamut supposedly according to Asheena had the power to be a threat to All Creation & The Entire Cosmos [Despite the fact that World in context was referring to Heroes Reborn , which meant Cosmos meant All Reality & Asheena knew of Subspace / Crossroads of Infinity , which is Tier 2-A to Tier 1 via the First Section] , Franklin was the reason that stopped Tiamut from affecting the Heroes Reborn reality prior to it being given to Asheena, proving that those of Celestial Level + Above have such capabilities of affecting All Creation, well before Hickman's Run and other such comics. We also know this "threat" was via Reality Warping, not like an empty threat such as "Frieza being a threat to the Universe" because we see him actively doing such much later during Hickman's Run
  • . Lack of Appearance of the Crossroads to have this be Inconsistent: There are only 3 Offical Appearances of the Crossroads, the Doom vs Beyonder , Hyperstorm , and Volume 6 of Fantastic Four, Two of those 3 suggest Higher-Dimensional stuff for the Crossroads, so consistency wins in this regard.
  • Roma gains her current powers from the Starlight Citadel + Otherworld, after the events of the Matrix was destroyed, both which are connected to the Multiverse (Here , Here, Here , Here , Here,Here)... Which means her raw power , due tot his at the very least affecting 616 and it's Branching Realities is very likely High 1-B. The problem is one of the scans hinted that all the planes the Tower/Otherworld encompasses, the lowest of these infinite planes "contains all Alternate Universes" [which Earth 616 and it's Branching Realities are High 1-B].... Stacked on top of each other... Not sure what to do about that... Because they really do seem to hint about them being connected to Higher-Dimensions here... And since All Alternate Earths would include Earth 616, it would scale to the high-end of the Crossroads of Infinity [High 1-B] .Base Roma and Merlyn (Merlyn without any connection to anytihing and is at his weakest) are a threats to Omnigod Jamie , who was essentially gaining this much power, and she can fight her opposite who can warp the Citadel [which is High 1-B via at the very least scaling to Earth 616]... So it proves that she scales even without relying on her power source.
  • Roma considers the Celestials [In general] as "All-Powerful" (Here)... Which means they'd be above what Roma would be at her peak [Which is High 1-B via at the very least scaling above Earth-616].
  • Roma considered Jaspers and Franklin of equal power, to the point of destroying their realities was the only way to destroy the threat the both had to their creation him,,, Which means her destroying them herself wasn't an option she could take, implying her inferiority to them. Keep in mind the following about Jaspers: Jaspers had the ability to end the Omniverse at several points in Captain Britain. One was when Fury and Jaspers were clashing together , and this was supposedly without the warp.This was then confirmed again when the Fury could've ended all of existence by it's lonesome , which as mentioned before has High 1-B power sources and infintie higher-dimenisions and infinite planes of reality .Then it was confirmed for the third time in ANOTHER handbook , proving my previous point. Then it was confirmed for the fourth time when Captain Britain was going to confront Jaspers . All of Existence would include the Otherworld [ Confirmed here , which was stated to be a Pan-Dimensional Reality twice ], , Citadel, all the infinite higher-dimensions and the ifnintie planes of reality, all of these structures High 1-B .
  • Franklin also overloads Mother Module's sensor , despite having sensed Jasper's powers at work on an Omniversal Scale , being there for the Jaspers Warp , being around Roma, and being there for Scarlet Witch's Warp.. Which neither of the three overwhelmed the module.... Keep in mind he did so by crying.
Scaling: Due to the complex nature of this feat, we have to assume that Earth-616 is on the same dimensional level as the Crossroads to be capable of the feat aforementioned. This only scales to those who can affect, destroy , or manipulate Earth-616 or all realities, which would include 616's branching realities . Any other statements of being capable of destroying a universe or multiverse anything else similar cannot be accepted into it.... Because that's the equivalent of saying that every reality is of this type of nature, which is not the intended message. An example of this in work: If someone on panel explicitly is shown affect Earth 616, They would scale to this somewhat by being half of the tier of the Crossroads... Whatever that ends up being. However, someone who is just stated to be able to destroy a "universe" ... or being a "Universe Buster"... In Marvel would not qualify to be under this umbrella as it requires far too much speculation to assume it scales to Earth 616 unless the Universe busting takes place in 616.
 
The Six dimension is refered as spatial since it's just a realm name of tiboros. However dark dimensions would be high 2-A or above that due to has greater spatial dimensions than man universe.)
 
Hmm... I can agree to an extent, however since all of that storyline was referring to higher dimensions I also see where you can debate against it not being higher-D.

Do you have anything to say about the whole Earth 616 and it's branching realities ascaling to the Crossroads of Infinity aspect of the thread ?
 
The 2nd Existential Seed said:
Hmm... I can agree to an extent, however since all of that storyline was referring to higher dimensions I also see where you can debate against it not being higher-D.
Do you have anything to say about the whole Earth 616 and it's branching realities ascaling to the Crossroads of Infinity aspect of the thread ?
Click to expand...
Six dimension is just the name of Tiboro realm. it literally said in bold Among these are tiboro six dimension and then mention other realms name. it doesnt refers to Six dimensional space
 
I see... Then I consent on that notion then.

May I ask do you have anything to say about the second half of the question ? Do you have anything against or for Earth 616 and those who can either destroy it or "all realities" scaling to the Crossroads ?
 
Okay you surprised me. What is being proposed (in a nutshell):

  • Crossroads of Infinity , Hyperspace, Subspace , and Negative Zone are all interconnected and share the same tier
  • The Crossroads was shown and uncontradicted to be Tier 1
  • The Negative Zone was treated as merely an universe / dimension ... Not as a Multiverse despite being the Crossroads .
  • Earth 616 has a feat of breaching the Crossroads, and the Negative Zone
Essentially Those who have the feat of affecting 616 or all realities would scale to the Crossroads of Infinity. Not everyone is affected and not every universe buster automatically scales... So it would be a case by case analysis of feats.
 
Not sure how I'd help considering I'm currently in the dark regarding Marvel's cosmology.
 
Reading through this everything seems good and reasonable with the given explainations and scans.
 
I've already talked with Prince about this on Discord... I'm not sure if he has anything to say but he didn't debunk it... He only told me good luck and that it was interesting.. I messaged Kepekley and Sandman. I have not message Schroeder since he has not given feedback so far and I doubt he would do so here... I also haven't messaged Ant since he is on temporarily leave. So the only ones who would help as of right now are Sandman and Kepekley.
 
Yeah... Essentially it's the waiting game to see if either of them give feedback... Since if any of them do so this revision could go through a lot quicker with their support.
 
Reading through the whole thing and looking at all the scans, I have some issues.

  • The scan about breaching the Negative Zone just shows dimensional travel by ripping a portal open. And the scan about Franklin's imagination explicitly calls the Zone "not infinite", so I don't know about using that as solid evidence. You say it doesn't undermine the feat but...why doesn't it? Taking the language at face value does seem to undermine it.
  • Asheena states in the first scan, "all creation will suffer". That's a little vague and flowery for concrete evidence of 2-A or High 1-B. The second scan makes no direct mention of the Crossroads, and common sense would say she was just talking about the universe. The scan with Franklin just provides further evidence he's Celestial-level, but we already know that.
  • Otherworld is a realm that connects to every other realm. Roma gains her power from it. Okay. But that doesn't mean anything regarding her power level. All of those scans just show that you can access/view all other dimensions from Otherworld, not that it grants Roma power to perform 2-A feats.
  • Pan-dimensional just refers to how Otherworld is a gateway to every realm.
  • The scans with the Omnigod just show him having a ton of clones. Without further evidence, that's not enough to consider him a 2-A being.
  • The scans about Franklin could be used to scale him to Jaspers, but both are already listed as 2-C on here. The single scan about Roma calling him a threat to everything and the scans about Jaspers threatening the omniverse are evidence of 2-A, but the Jaspers stuff is already accounted for on his profile, which lists him as "possibly far higher" for not showcasing his supposed full potential.
My main issue is that "breaching" into or out of the Crossroads is something that can be done with sufficient technology or versatile abilities, and it seems weird to consider a whole bunch of characters Tier 1 simply based on doing that rather than destroying/warping the realm.

I'm open to being debunked here and would definitely appreciate other users providing their own interpretations of each scan.
 
I would like to debate with you with this in detail before he is contacted... But if someone else wants to do so feel free. I'll respond in just a moment to that detailed post of yours.
 
@Demiurgic ... Dully noted.

@Prince

Understandable that you would have issues. Allow me to possibly shed some light:

  • The technology actually didn't help % with the feat in question , as further context showed. The technology itself wasn't enough to actually accomplish the feat, hence why they required the transdimensional power of Earth 616 and Heroes Reborn to directly break through it. Reed and Doctor Doom's technology even performing the feat shouldn't disqualify it anyways... Since both have shown prep feats of High 1-B caliber even before this revision may revise that.
  • They specifically stated in the scan it required actual raw power [as Doctor Strange went to Eternity to save their reality, hinting once again at AP being the reason and not just hax] , not abilities to do the feat in question. Plus I'm already saying that the Negative Zone is the Crossroads, and we have had feats of the Negative Zone has been destroyed and or warped... Or at least threatened to [The Weakened Ultimate Nullifier during Hickman's Run {Which scales to the Mad Celestials seeing how they no sold it} , Infinity Gauntlet, Well-Fed Galaactus and definitely a lot more that haven't been directly named] . We also see those who are empowered by either Negative Zone / Hyperspace [Hyperstorm] being hardcountered by an nigh-Well Fed Galactus... So they have the feats to be treated at the same tier even without this. I'm just trying to use this as support.
  • As vague and flowery as this is we see later on that Tiamut was literally warping all of reality in the later issues of Fantastic Four... So it wasn't intended to be vague... He did it much later.
  • Roma has shown feats without it, such as fighting her opposite who was warping the Citadel and fighting Jamie who has shown to resist reality warping of an at least 2-A scale, if not far more if this goes through.
  • Jaspers was shown several times to be able to affect the Omniverse more than once based on context of his feat. My point is that if he was shown later to be a threat to the Otherworld which according to the House of M Revision in a previous thread destroying said Otherworld is High 1-B [but never went anywhere] ... That should be another supporting feat.
 
  • It's not just technology from Reed or Doom, and it's not just technology in the first place. Just opening a portal to the Negative Zone or out of it isn't a High 1-B feat. Just because it requires a powerful being or high level of energy to do it doesn't mean it requires High 1-B levels of energy.
  • You should post the scans of the Crossroads being warped then, not focus on a feat that just involves ripping a portal open.
  • Regarding Hyperstorm and hyperspace, your link only says that hyperspace is sometimes confused with the Negative Zone, not that it is the Negative Zone.
  • You need to post the scans of Tiamut warping reality then, as well as any necessary contextual evidence to show the extent of his warping, not just the scan of another character just calling him a threat.
  • The Citadel is not an infinite-multiverse-sized structure just because it exists as a dimensional nexus. In order to use Roma for valid evidence for a massive upgrade, you need to post her actual fight with Jamie as well as evidence of Jamie's 2-A level of power.
  • You would need to make a CRT for Jaspers, since his omniverse-threatening power level was apparently already decided sometime in the past to not warrant a solid rating.
There's a consistent theme with your threads I've noticed (and I mean no offense by this): you focus intensely on dubious feats and take the time to link the scans for them, but pay no attention to the much more solid ones (such as you stating there are more legitimate instances of warping the whole Crossroads, or Roma fighting Jamie who you say resisted 2-A levels of power) and treat them more as afterthoughts. It would be much easier to focus completely on those concrete subjects instead.
 
Yeah Omniverse/Omniversal statements without feats to back it are often ignored and can be hard to quantify so that can be hard to use.
 
  • I'm certain it does because it was the Edge of Subspace that is the Crossroads in question. And the technology was shown breaching the borders and edge of it. Hence affecting the Crossroads. There is a difference between creating a portal using abilities and physically shattering the edge of the reality in question.
  • Dr.Doom stated that the Negative Zone is the Crossroads of Infinity during the retconned version of Doom vs Beyonder. That is what I'm using because if that is uncontradicted nothing reallly hurts this upgrade .
I can't supply said scans.This whole upgrade depends on if The Negative Zone is The Crossroads... So even if I give scans... It won't get accepted until that is a general consensus.
 
The quote from the feat in question is: "the gateway swings wide as a hole rips open in the edge of the Negative Zone", which allows the characters to return. The entire edge of the realm was not shattered, the scan itself just says a hole ripped open, it's just a portal.

You would need to provide scans for the whole Crossroads being warped anyway, because the actual narration in the "breaching" scan itself disproves the notion that the entire edge of the realm was shattered.
 
Fair enough for the other two:

But if people like Well Fed Galactus was shown to be capable of destroying the realm already [ It's on Galactus' profile ] , wouldn't that count as a feat ? And Asheema physically grew beyond the edge of subspace... Meaning physically he was bigger than it's edge. There imo isn't an ultimatum for that feat.
 
@Prince My major problem is that Asheena refers to the outer borders of the Negative Zone as Franklin's Imagination , despite that being the Crossroads of Infinity since it at least include the edges of the Negative Zone / Subspace . I have no idea how to properly quantify that ... But it likely could be used as a supporting feat for those scaling to the Crossroads.

There was also a quote about Franklin shaping the laws and limits of space-time, which we know can reach extremely far ... Would this perhaps be quantifiable and help ? At the very least I see Law Manipulation for FR.It also describes FR as having the highest mutant potential, even when this event actually is after House of M.

It is consistent with an AU version of hom being a conduit of the Negative Zone.
 
I think that PrinceOfTheMorning makes sense here.
 
So far, I lean towards Prince's reasoning.

Apologies for not elborating more, but it's late where I am and I'm tired.
 
What Prince says makes sense, though there are still a few things I agree with Seed on, either way I think finding more supporting and relevant scans is whats needed for this, discussing it can only go so far.
 
The problem is one all the supporting & the relevant scans can only be good enoigh if The Crossroads are supposedly the Negative Zone. If it is then ot all comes together. Of not then it all falls apart just as easily. I already provided the scans for that part.

The breaching should matter. We have the scans showing the breaching was from the outer borders, which is where the Crossroads are located in the Negative Zone. I've shown the scan that it required AP to accomplish. Even shattering a portion of ot should put it into the tier and affecting it in any meaningful way. The only other thing I have is the fact that the Heroes "returning" caused the Nexus to shatter and the Fallen Stars are High 1B yet fodder to the Nexus, which would be support since the Nexus & Fallen Stars was agreed to be High 1B in previous threads multiple times. But then I'd have to use the Fallen Stars again.

The Negative Zone was referred to as a plane of reality in the Heroes Reborn saga, which means that all the every plane of reality feats wpuld lclude The Crossroads if accepted. Again all of my support depends on it.
 
Bump. Okay.... No kidding around. I'm going to confront this right here... Right now. I will be using DeMatteis since it has follow up context to the Heroes returning to Earth 616. This is the only reason why I'm using it. The other reason why is because the events following are directly canon to the lore of Marvel and no other feats of similar caliber have been documented so nothing inconsistent should be noted. The only thing about this that can't be using is Shamballa, but nothing else was hard countered.

Heroes Reborn: Continued Context Post- "The Return" [Using Strange Tales]

Dr.Strange thought that the result of the Heroes Returning [Specifically referencing Heroes Reborn here] caused the Nexus to Shatter and All Levels of the Multiverse to start collapsing. Remember it was the combined effort of Earth-616 and Heroes Reborn... Not Reed/Doom's technology which was directly stated in-comic to not be able to work. Meaning he believes the ones capable of returning the Heroes can cause such a catastrophe (and his word should be noted as he is extremely knowledgable about the cosmic powers of other entities, the Multiverse & mystic events and has the experience to make this claim valid):

The Energies of explicitly Earth-616 & Heroes Reborn was what caused them to return... NOT the technology:

Remember we have direct statements that not only Eternity could've returned the Heroes, but also Franklin (who was at the time treated as comparable to The Celestials)

Analysis and Consistency

  • Earth-616 being this explicitly powerful via the aforementioned feat makes sense due to other dialogues about 616 being as important as the Multiverse itself, being it's focal point by those such as Uatu and the Universal Abstracts.
  • Scaling also helps with the Celestials + Above only scaling because Well-Fed Galactus , Scrier , and The Other was described as being capable of causing more damage than the Chaos War, which is Infinite-D via direct mentioning of Higher-D's plus 96% of the Multiverse being affected.
  • We also see those who supposedly are merely the embodiments of the universe of 616 perform feats of this caliber, such as the avatar of the Universal Phoenix Force performing the Lighthouse Feat [which was publicly accepted as an High 1-B showing in the original thread to upgrade the Phoenix Force so I won't try to make a post proving it is]
  • Roma empowered Captain Britain enough to overpower the same Phoenix that performed the aforementioned feat. And she considers it much more strenous to destroy Earth-616 and only as a last resort, and considered the Celestials "All-Powerful" despite knowing of the Phoenix Force and ti's feat being general knowledge in Captain Britain's Lore... and performing an arguably High 1-B feat in and of itself.
  • Someone considered to be a threat to Merlyn defeated the Phoenix' Avatar who anchored the Phoenix to perform the feat above... So again it's consistent. Yes supposed him & Rachel were only destroying the Planets on-panel , but context is being ignored as the Lighthouse was also accepted as High 1-B... and Meggan/Captain Britain fusion empowered by it was able to destroy the Lighthouse... Yet said person Rachel was fighting was considered to be far stronger and took a direct blow from said fusion.
  • The Energies of Earth-616 (along with another amp) hard-countered the Chaos Wave temporarily which was accepted as once again High 1-B. Again a direct showing of 616 being used as an power source to perform a High 1-B feat.
Conclusion If we use the added context of the feat [and not the Fallen Stars but just the result of the Heroes returning] it fixes a lot of issues with the portal feat. Using the Fallen Stars showings and feats of High 1-B caliber also helps out with feat consistency if anyone is interested [since the Celestials are at least comparable to Well-Fed Galactus and Scrier whose treated at the same level is on a level unfathomable to the Fallen Stars and Men of Lineage]... But I'm only using the Heroes returning aspect at this time. Maybe in the forseeable future if this is accepted I'll make the scaling chain longer by introducing these guys directly.
 
Seed, reiterating the same points about the Heroes feat doesn't change what I said above. Requiring a high level of power to rip open a hole does not mean it requires High 1-B levels of power, and once again, nothing shattered the Crossroads. You're taking a dimensional travel feat and extrapolating to the highest possible interpretation.

For real though, why are you so focused on this particular feat? You've talked above about having a feat of the entire Crossroads being warped, so why not post that instead? It's actually a feat, unlike this one. And it would provide some consistency with Galactus/Scrier/Other, which was considered an outlier the last time I brought it up.

Some other things:

  • I remember the lighthouse feat explicitly not being accepted as enough to give a 2-A upgrade for Phoenix hosts, let alone High 1-B. Can you link where this was accepted as High 1-B? Your paragraphs about Roma and Merlyn entirely depend upon that. Or you could post the Roma/Jamie battle you talked about and show the evidence you stated proves Jamie is 2-A.
  • "The Energies of Earth-616 (along with another amp)" --- that "other amp" part would mean it can't scale to normal Earth-616, no? Also, where was the Chaos Wave accepted as High 1-B? I was able to find an instance of Matthew saying it could be that high, and then nothing was ever done about it and no scans were posted to show that it is High 1-B.
 
It isn't the same thing... Please dont put it under the same umbrella. The point I'm trying to make is that this is the result of the heroes returning specifically... Nothing having to do with the travel aspect or shattering the Crossroads... But the feat of returning them to 616 from Heroes Reborn. I'm trying to say that the shattering doesn't matter if the heroes returning results in such drastic things like the Multiverse shattering as well as the Nexus. You haven't counted that, only the shattering Crossroads aspect of it. It's literally what happened... It's the literal interpretation of what happened afterward with added context ... and the whole all levels of the Multiverse being shattered isn't proof requires High 1B levels ?

If you want direct scaling with direct feats then allow me to scale tbe Fallen Stars to Scrier than to Galactus. That takes far less effort than continuing this back and forth.

It was because said feat was treated as an outlier Prince. I'm on mobile so linking isn't an option... But the reason was because it was viewed as an outlier and.

The Otherworld aspect I'll consent to.
 
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