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Marvel CRT: 2-A Cosmic Cube & Tier 1 Realities

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You're whole focus so far, and the scans you posted in the beginning, only show the hole being ripped open so they can return. Why are you then bringing up the more esoteric DeMatteis stuff when you've previously spent so much time arguing that it's not canon to the main Marvel multiverse and that you want to make a separate verse page for the DeMatteis multiverse? Not to mention that it doesn't scale to anyone since the feat performed was to make a hole. That hole later widened, which is what Strange is talking about. Reality was destabilized, no one involved directly shattered the Nexus or creation.

Also Seed, I'm trying to be on your side because I also like Marvel, so can you please post the scans of the Crossroads being warped which will allow the Celestials to scale? You've brought it up in the past several threads, and it would provide support for getting the Scrier battle out of outlier status.
 
The evidence you seek of the Crossroads being warped solely depends on one thing: Do you believe the Megative Zone contains said Crossroads ? If so then An weakened Ultimate Nullifier was going to destroy the Negative Zone completely and everything in it, which would linclude said Crossroads due to various statements about the Crossroads being located within it. We can scale that to the Celestials... Which is why me talking to you about if the Negative Zone contains it is so important.
 
Double post and all but the reason I'm uusing this work of DeMatteis it is because one it has the high end feats neccessary to accomplish scaling to this high end, even without the Heroes Reborn it has a showing of Scrier being immensely superior to someone who views all levels of the Multiverse as a dream, so consistency is there in spades. Two it is because it was explicitly shown to be canon by comics having nothing to do with DeMatteis, such as The Incredible Hulk.
 
The Crossroads can at least be entered via the vortex at the center of the Negative Zone iirc, but whether the Negative Zone itself should count as the Crossroads is kind of dubious, at least from the scans provided. The two scans with Reed only show two trippy-looking backgrounds, which isn't proof at all, and as I've already said the link to the wiki about hyperspace just says that subspace is sometimes confused with the Negative Zone.

Edit: Actually, hold the phone here. Checking the actual issue this is from, Doctor Doom calls the vortex a portal to the Crossroads. The Negative Zone contains a portal that can be used to enter the Crossroads, it doesn't literally contain the Crossroads.

And just to clarify - you're now reversing your position that all the DeMatteis material belongs in a separate multiverse?
 
Subspace isn't just confused with Negative Zone... The first time he enters the realm he calls it Subspace. But that isn't the point... Marvel directory makes the following statement "Sub-Space is also called Hyperspace." So yeah... it's likely Hyperspace anand Subspace are the same, which makes sense considering in that very issue we see Surfer around there traveling the Universe... which he only uses Hyperspace to do such. And what do we see at it's edge ? The Crossroads right there. The same symbols and everything.

Yes. I'm formerly reversing my position since it was stated to be canon from comics having nothing to do with DeMayteis. It could serve as a second way to make Scrier's Battle Feat consistent should everything else be faltered.
 
Seed, I took that from your own evidence in the OP: "Hyperspace is also known as sub-space (which is sometimes confused with the Negative Zone)".

Anyway, that's not the important thing here. What's most important is that this whole time I was assuming the Negative Zone literally contains the Crossroads based on that Doom scan, but checking a few pages further into the issue clarifies that the Negative Zone just contains a portal to the Crossroads. Doom and the others were able to enter the Crossroads by flying through a portal at the center of the Negative Zone.
 
I was just saying new information I just found. Would that be enough evidence to scale that [Subspace/Crossroads] to Hyperstorm (since we scale him to Hyperspace) and thusly Galactus and Franklin and whomever else ?

Okay then. Until I find more conclusive evidence involving the relation between the Zone and Crossroads ... Should we just attenpt to use Strange Tales / The Canon DeMatteis stuff now and the aforementioned Hyperspace ?
 
First, Marvel Directory is an unofficial fan-made site. Do you have a scan confirming that the hyperspace associated with Hyperstorm and the Celestials is also called sub-space?

Second, I already said that I seriously don't think the stuff about the crack in reality should scale to any character at all. The feat performed involved ripping a hole through dimensions. The Nexus shattering and reality nearly getting destroyed was a result of a crack in reality that began widening after that hole was made, as stated in the comic. It's a chain reaction of reality getting destabilized.
 
I can get that scan for you yes.

Uhh... That actually isn't true. That was merely what Strange thought.. Which wasn't the case as you got deeper into it . Termineus revealed the real reason was that the Multiverse had a Men of Lineage and he stopped dreaming all creation. When the dream stop the Nexus shattered and then the Multiverse started collapsong. Only upon the Dreamer going back to dreaming all creation did everything instantly remade itself.

The event unlike the aforementikned crack scales to quite a few since Kadmon, one of the Dreamers was seen as only comparable to the Universal Abstracts in Overspace upon transcending to a higher plane.
 
So then why were you using Strange's scan to support the breaching feat if the breaching feat had nothing to do with the crack? The goalposts keep shifting. If you considered DeMatteis' stuff canon and were intending to use all of it, you shouldn't have made the main point of your revision the breaching feat, and then shift to using Strange to support the breaching feat, and then shift to saying the breaching feat actually isn't what caused creation to shatter but something else.

And just as a side note, is this Dreamer stuff the reason much of DeMatteis' work was being considered non-canon in the first place?
 
I was using Dr.Strange to say that he believed that AP wise the portals required a set amount of power... Which is still valid but isn't what actually happened. I abandoned it now because it isn't considered an AP feat regardless of context... So as they say I'm moving to the next available option.

The reason was questioning it's canonicity, not the feat of the dreamers. Then it was considered question DeMatteis legitimacy, but all of that is easy to counter since most of it was just incredulous statements rather than having concrete proof of him being unable to be used for evidence for a Marvel upgrade.
 
Bump. The problem is the canonicity of the fallen stars even is undeniable, as we see comics having nothing to do with these events reference the likes of the Fallen Stars, Job Burke, and the Dreamers exclusively... Which it's canonicity was the only legitimate thing keeping me from using it.

Anyways... The feats/scaling we see in this comic [I'm going to list them since I already have catalog of them in my blog plus Im3 too tired to publish the scans legitimately right now here... A lot happened today]:

  • A shard of the Nexus allowing someone to be one woth all time and space [ which is treated as All Levels of the Multiverse ]
  • The Fallen Stars scaling above Cleito whose one with the Multiverse.
  • Men of Lineage predating the Fallen Stars and keeps all creation [Multiverse] around by dreaming.
  • A piece of the Nexus wielded by a human can kill a powerful Men of Lineage that is beyond the Fallen Stars comprehension in one hit.
  • Scrier lolstomping someone wielding the full Nexus + Men of Lineage + Fallen Star Lineage.
Man Thing also shows his body can contain the aforementioned last bullet amp as well as the entirety of this comic , which was overrided by Franklin in the Daydreamers Saga [which said saga was created by DeMatteis in case you believe it to be from an altogether different storyline]... Proving the Celestials and Co canonically scale far above the feats presented by the Fallen Stars
 
So, from what I'm gathering this is where we're at right now:

  • High 1-B upgrades for all the relevant characters are now depending on the DeMatteis material, which can serve as evidence that the Scrier/Galactus/Other fight is not an outlier.
  • And every reaso you presented here about why DeMatteis' stuff is not canon to the main continuity, is no longer valid. I know you said you changed your mind, but...you knew all the information here, back then. So is the flip flop valid, or not?
I'm not enough to evaluate this on my own because at this point things seem to have reverted to threads that were being discussed a couple months ago. You should ask Sandman and Kepekley and Matthew to come in here as well if you haven't already, because I know at least Sandman and Kepekley participated in the previous threads about this DeMatteis stuff.

Also please link your relevant blog that contains all the needed scans even if you don't post them here. Judging from some of the stuff earlier, each feat should be examined in detail before making any massive changes.
 
The "flip flop" is valid because it was shown as canon to material not created by DeMatteis such as the Incredible Hulk series and even some of the newer comics depict such... Which such proof of it being integrate dinto the canon wasnt around at the time. I have contacted both Kep and Matthew about this information ... Neither seem to respond to Marvel so for the most part we are alone to discuss this. Their entire line of logic against this being used was based on this material being not canon... Which it is canon so that basically denounces their entire argument. I already contacted all three you mentioned so it's merely a matter of them showing up... If not... I guess we are on our own.

I'll post the scans in the morning so you don't have to dig through that massive ball of junk I used to call a respect thread.
 
I am not willing to upgrade most cosmic entities to 1-A or High 1-B based on DeMatteis stories that contradict everything else and are ignored by all other authors.
 
DeMatteis has his own cosmology (Influenced by his philosophy, beliefs and rrligion) which he incororporates in almost all stories he writes. Its really easy to get high ratings from his stories because of his cosmology, everyone in his cosmology is basically a god bound by the "dream/illusion" of creation. His cosmology is drastically different from most/the rest of Marvel's cosmology. Anyway, I need to reread DeMatteis because I dont remember it very well.
 
Both Ant and Sandman: His stories are directly connected to the cosmology and other cosmologies refers to realities being born by dreams, besides DeMatteis. His comic was referred to be canon twice by Incredible Hulk , Spider Man, Silver Surfer.... So they are not ignored Ant... You are the only one ignoring them.

Ka'dmon is a cosmoc abstract and is even referred to be one involved with Overspace and according to the comocs canon to it transcended to Overspace after the events of Scrier . Beside incredulous statements there is nothing stopping us from using hthis work besides Shamballa which was never canon but just a side project he made.

Not everyone is a God in the verse with his logic in this canon storyline besides Shamballa which is again not canon. I'm only using them to show consistency in feats of this caliber. Please do not say that everyine is a God because Shamballa isn't canon whoch is thebonly thing hinting that everyone scales (which is blatantly false considering the nature of the Men of Lineage actually vehemently contradicts such a notion).

With that out of the way I'm going to post the scans.
 
No its not just because of Shamballa. The same philosophy is present in many of his works including Man-Thing and many others.
 
How does the nature of the Men of Lineage contradicts it?

I'll re read it again but this is what I remember abou them. Rather than contradicting I think their nature supports it. Unlike others, the Men of Lineage are the keeper of the dream and is not as immersed as everyone else in gods illusion. There's even a line saying that humans are sleeping or trapped in an illusion. Its basically same with De Matteis other works just with some difference. Humans are trapped in the dream but beyond that dream they are part of or one with God because indivuality is just an illusion
 
@Sandman

Yes but Shamballa is the main problem and can be ignored because it isn't canon. Most of his "other works" aren't canon sans the ones about the Fallen Stars so those are the only ones I'll be mentioning. Chaos War & the original version of Oblivion , both obviously canon events, also had the same concepts of dreams and philosphy there within, same with Defeders 2005. Yes these are all DeMatteis' works but we accept all of these as canon previously despite continuing this trend. Even Heroes Reborn: The Return , even before DeMatteis' came into the picture & made Daydreamers Saga , talks about how all existence being the dream of another individual [Eternity]... So again I don't see the problem with it's usage since before and after concepts he created still lived on vividly throughout Marvel and are a blatant part of it. If Man-Thing and Strange Tales only were the ones doing this then it would be easy to just say "debunk"... But it's not so easy once you realize just how far and wide these same ideologies spread into far more concrete canonical events we document as canon and have profiles for.

There is also the fact that despite him using his concepts, he makes sure to integrate them into the cosmology to such an extent that the Fallen Stars were never intended by him to be the "be all end all" . He still had Eternity and Co. Far above them by including Scrier and other subtle things about the Overspace making Ka'dmon appear to be a lesser Abstract in later issues. So anyone saying he intended them to be the most powerful in Marvel isn't accurate with this at all.

Feats from the Comic (Part 1: Fallen Stars , Men of Lineage, and the Nexus):

All Existence / All Creation was described to affect "All Levels" of Reality/Creation/Multiverse.... Proving the effects were at a Higher-D scale. Yes there is "All realities" statements littered about but Marvel has done this during Chaos War yet Chaos King is High 1-B... So this shouldn't be used as an excuse to just assume 2-A as the only available option here if it was ignored for further context. If anything, as I said prior ... The feats of those scaling to the feats below should be "2-A, possibly High 1-B" [Due note I prefer purely High 1-B since we've done so for others similar despite showing it follows all realities we still viewed the event as High 1-B such as Chaos War and even Ultimates... And even when this is accepted only those scalable to Universal Eternity to Celestials and Higher would be Affected.... Which means it isn't as comprehensive]:

  • http://2.bp.blogspot.com/37EHa5YHEjhc3GGzVwGcnDQnBvg3DRkorAg9zYPvRkVazDs-IEYGxrmH9yAoD2E4fYjUe0L2H7wq=s1600
  • https://postimg.cc/MM1DZ0Ry/c4196222
This man possesses a fraction of the Nexus... And he was described as being one with all of time & space across All Creation [Also someone empowered by a fraction of the Nexus kills Job, a Men of Lineage described as being beyond the comprehension of Ka'dmon and Termineus]:

  • http://2.bp.blogspot.com/XpY7rOitBEymAtBLyF7zqAXXJpR0EjH4nn7jWMvAXj0pNNcNIHChF64fNLsr9JqAAggnLjIa6Rf6=s1600
  • http://2.bp.blogspot.com/lPXupYMa00U8pZjMIV4IHiyDg1l_Du4CtBHWv_60qcT3BH6O_-PCg696gQkIx3JQLP0Eis90o1dl=s1600
  • http://2.bp.blogspot.com/IQh13EGSixWtXVmG_H2gRvf0RBv-7DSo11jcBGjMNAj_XJvzRP9T4ohR8qsXHaRq_XWqxD442sy-=s1600
Cleito, one of the Fallen Stars immensely inferior to the likes of the Lineage & the Full Nexus was described in a similar way as being connected to all creation.

  • http://2.bp.blogspot.com/xvKC3QUTYNLEpTu1jswDTREKbrs53tqk38PAVTDi8xUv9WDGnFpvGuVb_HXrKABzcBA7xxy2RUVk=s1600
The Men of Lineage were described to Maintain all Creation as a Dream... Wiithout it... Creation will End [Also time conceptually is viewed as Dream, but again that seems higher-end levels fo High 1-B rather than 1-A]:

  • http://2.bp.blogspot.com/6siah3zRFJeeqewk172j_FKHu4UD6yTRjQrt4LGff17bEEb8xcwMe2aZycH4ootRahPGjlMvU-77=s1600
  • https://2.bp.blogspot.com/kqsvL7tEM1VIurelxCMSj-ABV5lagNSW-2pQ1tmY6Bq0QANgJc5EVgcMzLWvuWv_BK7ozCSstnph=s1600
  • https://2.bp.blogspot.com/l4dXgDRDJrrmurpWRlO_iGSopXL1rJc8p3WLbmxeN2A8BMdw9D0gomRdxyhtSur2F_RV5cS4K8_b=s1600
The other feats are from the Marvunapp, which DeMatteis personally saw to the issue 4's creation on the site. Basically just like how it is said above Ted remade Creation alongside his son Job, who he remade effortlessly. It proves how powerful Ted is once he accesses his powers: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/burkejobmt.htm

Feats from the Comics (Part 2: Scrier) Well, the important part comes much, much later. Ka'dmon confronts Scrier with a lot of power... The power of himself, the Fallen Stars, and Ka'dmon [Also remember that Man-Thing can hold a lot of power within himself on a likely Tier 2 - 1 Scale... This is important for Daydreamers Saga] . He also states he is before time & consciousness, hinting that the Abstracts actually predate the Dream [which is actually pretty consistent with Eternity's Realm in later issues being stated as beyond the Dream and other such quotations]:

  • https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qRu5VSbyPF8/WiXlv-FzX5I/AAAAAAAALPg/Jbpk-F3NHagSlu0Q-MdOEJsCqzsbP6fswCHMYCw/s1600/RCO028.jpg
  • https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QZ-K4JQ-N0Q/WiXlwPPuduI/AAAAAAAALPk/MQkuisfASEktBAwv2DBJMnvzFlT7PTdNQCHMYCw/s1600/RCO029_w.jpg
Even with this power plus Ellen and the very Nexus itself... It was still pretty apparent that Scrier was still much stronger than they were... And was going to kill them [Also again remember that Man-Thing's body can handle this much power going through him... The entire Nexus itself , Men of Lineage, and Fallen Stars {For Future Scaling Reference I shall call this: Fallen Star Lineage Nexus Composite Man-Thing} ]:

  • https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JSGqQhk4Bv8/WiXlxkVSzQI/AAAAAAAALQE/0tBf2f76JS80wc72tn-iWks1w9-le_cngCHMYCw/s1600/RCO037.jpg
  • https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0d1wmfVdt9U/WiXlxtEKOpI/AAAAAAAALQI/bNrLHIk_BaMSSYL4doGF4xoPV1YBlhEhwCHMYCw/s1600/RCO038.jpg
Feats from this Comic (Part 3: Daydreamers) This is the most important to me as this is the most obvious portion. Despite having previously absorbed that much power and having controlled the Nexus, Franklin specifically messing with it was overwhelming Man-Thing to the point it couldn't handle the energies Franklin was using to make him his conduit:

  • In response to Man-Thing, Dark Hunter directly states "His body could not handle the energies Franklin was channeling through him" ... Meaning it was Franklin doing it, not just using the Nexus http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jNQZaQaBvjQ/WhPbNfp28pI/AAAAAAAAFnY/4VbOvZk3OSopn43yyPEg52WKqGdCGUtNgCHMYCw/s1600/RCO019.jpg
Remember the above was when dear Franklin wasn't even actively aware he was doing everything in Daydreamers until literally at the last minute.

Feats from those Comics (Part 4: Scaling):

  • An Subconscious Manifestation of Franklin's power clearly scales well above the Fallen Star Lineage Nexus Composite Man-Thing considering Franklin effortlessly manipulated energies Man-Thing couldn't handle despite what happened above, and it was so effortless he wasn't aware he did it, akin to what happened in Heroes Reborn involving him creating that.This scales to the Celestials as well because this was during the time period he was considered comparable to them in power.... As it was Pre-Heroes Reborn since he references the fact his family is gone... Which means the story takes place between Onslaught Saga & Heroes Reborn.
  • Scrier was going to destroy the Fallen Star Lineage Nexus Composite Man-Thing and stated he was before the Dream, consistent with Eternity's statement of Transcending it as well as Oblivion. It also is consistent with several dream themes of the Heroes Reborn comics as well and even comics such as Chaos War and the like.
Any direct dissection of these feats without just hammering to me about DeMatteis not being usable will be appreciated, as we already use his works on the site from Marvel.
 
@Sandman I didn't see your post so I'm going to post a second time. Again... Some of the works we already have canonized and use profiles for already use the same exact philosophy as his works does. It doesn't matter exactly the concepts he uses, what does matter is that we have already accepted them by accepting Chaos War and Oblivion which are directly tied into the lore of the Dream. The Illusion part [Shamballa] isn't canon so please stop using it as evidence... There is actually a significant difference. One is that it is the canon version, shows that only a select few scale rather than the whole bunch. They are trapped... But they don't gain High 1-B powers from being aware of the dream or anything stupid like that.

. I just read through the backstory of the Fallen Stars and the only thing that supposedly is within it is that aren't actively aware of the dream they are in. What we are made explicitly clear about is that only the Dreamers made to fit the role such as Men of Lineage scales this high... Not some average joe who becomes aware of the dream and is all of a sudden High 1-B. The only time someone in the story ever became close tot hat level was when they were empowered by the Nexus.... So that can't really be used for much of anything to prove that all humans ahve this nature.

I hope I'm not seeming to be agitated.... But when you realize we have already implemented DaMatteis' work and then all of a sudden everyone in their mother is talking semantics about something we are already implementing and having profiles for... who have the undertones of the same philosophy of "everynoe being in the dream" like directly during Chaos War ... It is just a bit weird to me to say the least. Just because they are all interconnected via the dream to the Creator doesn't mean they scale to the Creator... It would completely make no sense.
 
Youre the one who keeps mentioning Shamballah, the one im referencing is not from that. Its from Swamp Thing and Strange Tales. Please stop insisting that I'm referring to Shamballa when I clearly said that its not from that
 
I did not contest that. What I'm saying is that its similar to other De Matteis work because of humans being trapped by the illusion and that they are truly one with the Creator. The Men Of Lineage clear has a special role and is different from everyone else
 
@Sandman Would it be alright to go on and discuss the tier of the feat ktself, potential scaling and applications on using these feats if we have no "further" [meaning the same arguments used which was already talked and dsicussed extensively above] things to add about DeMatteis work being used , as we already use said philosophy within the wikia in existing articles like Chaos War, Oblivion, and have used Defenders 2005 as evidence of Infinite-D eternity which makes direct references to the same concepts seen in these set of comics ?

Also I would like to know Sandman : May I ask why did you kudo this thread ?
 
Before I get a supporting feat... Let me say this: Otherworld, Citadel, and Co are connected to the same spaces. So if one has a feat of "dimensions" being higher-D... the others will as well share the same tier.

The Otherworld was called High 1-B by Schroeder based on when all dimensions fell, they were described as having "branes" between them... Now we see Spider-Man so this easily means we are talking about the Alternate Earths. The problem with this ? Well, it's the fact that branes are usually only used when describing "higher-dimensions" according to theories ... So that means unless something else hinting it we are referring to the Alternate Earths here as Higher-Dimensions... Not Alternate Universes if what Schroeder said was what was indicated. Okay.... Back on topic... To Prove Merlin & Roma are far higher than people believe they are... Without amps: Merlin physically fought with the Matrix across the Multiverse to Tame it's Powers:

Usage of the Energy Matrix allowed Britain and Meggan to do the below bullets [with mentioning to dimensions beng referred to as higher-dimensional, like explicit mentioning of the 4-Dimensional and Geometric Expression]... So the full Multiverse in Captain Britain likely including Higher-Dimensions in the Matrix as well as Alternate Earths [It also directly states the Matrix is the cause of the collapse of the Multiverse... Proving that Merlyn wrestling with it would be of an high-end caliber feat]:

Jamie warped the heart of the Phoenix Force / White Hot Room:

Which was considered the Heart & Core of Creation:

My major question is this: On Schroder's Blog [Which may or may not outdated]: This scan was considered of an High 1-B Nature by a lot of people and was agreed by several knowledgable staff:

We have had several people, even those of Universal Abstract tier have affected every plane of reality on numerous occasions... Even in the aforementioned scans I've provided on several different CRT's described feats of "every plane of existence/reality"... Wouldn't that scale to the highest plane of reality and thusly High 1-B since it's "every" plane... And it's just as equally vague as the aforementioned blogspot scan ? It's been bugging me for a while and I've been meaning to address it.
 
Please do your best to stick to one topic, Seed.

  • First scan: assuming what you say is true about what Matthew said (considering you have been mistaken multiple times already, to put it bluntly), that does not show anything even close to High 1-B. In the context of the story, it's just referring to the boundaries between dimensions.
  • Second scan: doesn't show what you said it does. There's no fight and no mention of Merlyn having a fight.
  • Third and fourth scans: Fourth scan literally says that "planes" refer to alternate universes. "Geometric progression" just refers to how the damage is spreading throughout reality, and mentions of "4th dimensional" is just referring to Rachel adjusting their frequency so they can move throughout the universes.
  • Fifth and sixth scans: Calling something the core of creation doesn't make Jamie a High 1-B reality warper. The room is realm that functions as a nexus to all realities, that's why she calls it the core.
  • Seventh scan: People agreed on it referring to higher dimensions because context makes it abundantly clear. You need context, because the word "plane" or the phrase "every plane of existence" usually just refers to universes.
I'm getting annoyed. A large part of this thread has involved ignoring context completely, stretching individual terms to their uppermost limit in order to push the highest upgrade possible, posting actual misinformation about certain things being accepted in the past, and shifting goalposts left and right.
 
@POTM

That is what Seed has done over and over for more than 3 years now. Unfortunately, he is very obsessed regarding this topic.
 
Because I want it to reach a full and detailed conclusion... Is that something that is wrong to ask for ? If it reaches a conclusion and is denied I won't care. But I will care if this is just closed in the middle without any progress being made. I just ask someone to fully analyze the work about the Fallen Stars and figure out what to do with it. If this is done I will quit and never mention it again... No matter if it's accepted or denied .

I will say a rule should be made about this topic should it be denied in the end.
 
Hopefully POTM can help us to conclusively end this topic then.
 
@Seed

Okay, I just read the whole post about the Fallen Stars, Man-Thing, Scrier, and Franklin. On its own I have no issues with it, that was a nice writeup Seed. The dreamer stuff does seem to be referring to every level of creation, yes.

So tell me if I have this straight:

  • The dreamers maintain creation via their power, and it is stated that they can actively u-dream creation as well, destroying it. This is the level K'ad-mon is at.
  • Man-Thing, who is carrying all the power of K'ad-mon as well as all of the Fallen Stars, confronts Scrier. And it is clear Scrier can destroy him.
  • Franklin Richards channeled enough energy into Man-Thing to overload and start destroying him.
If it wasn't for the Franklin feat being from the same author as the Man-Thing stuff I would be hesitant to use it, but since it is, it's legitimate for scaling imo. Furthermore, Seed is correct that VSB already uses DeMatteis' other work (The Mighty Thor Annual 2012) as evidence supporting Oblivion's profile. That material even has Scrier as a key figure, the same character as in the above stuff. I think the scaling is legit, and is in-line with several other things that are currently considered outliers.

My one possible concern is this: the stuff about the dreamers, specifically how the universes were created, seems to contradict the currently accepted Marvel cosmology (the First Firmament, successive Multi-Eternities, etc.)
 
Wow. Okay... One I appreciate what you said about it's organization. You are correct and everything was summed up nicely.

It is true about this specific part ... We can maybe say two things:

1: We can always say The Creator is potentially a Creator Deity indirectly related to the Abstracts and Eternity as a temporary solution, as Ka'dmons backstories seem to line up with Eternity specifically. Especially since even Oblivion referenced Reality being within the Dream... and it's likely he is aware of whomever dreamed reality. So maybe we can say that The Creator is an Abstract of unknown relation to Eternity for the time being until I ask DeMatteis directly. So we can assume in this version the dream and the abstracts were created around the same timeframe.

2: We can safely conclude that The Fallen Stars seem to be something akin to something born after the creation of the First Firmanent and current Eternity due to hints about the abstracts predating the Dream and transcending it. So in this version we can assume that the dream of reality was after the creation of Eternity.
 
Bump. If the above is legitimate and supposedly accepted as Prince says above than I can work on justifications. I already have the necessary revisions mapped up in case we need to just copy and paste this... I'll start with Man-Thing, then Galactus, then Franklin (We can start on these guys because they are the most clear to scale to this for now... Yes I know a lot more scale to this that are unnamed but this will be solved as we go along and determine what to do after this point. It's imperative we at least start with the guys who directly scale before we get to indirect scaling via scaling to the aforementioned Galactus, Celestials, and Franklin):

Man-Thing should get a new key either called Ka'dmon or Men of Lineage.... The AP should be :

  • High Hyperverse Level (the Men of Lineage view Creation as a dream, and should they undream it they can destroy it. Creations is viewed as "every level of creation". Gets an amp from the Fallen Stars, Nexus, and himself as the Men of Lineage.)
  • Hax is Unknown for now... This is focusing more on AP... Once this is applied I'll work vigorously on hax additions for the key if accepted.
Galactus [Well-Fed]:

  • AP and Justifications: High Hyperverse Level (Shown to be comparable to Scrier, who are ludicrously superior to Fallen Stars such as Ka'dmon amped with the Nexus of All Realities & Fallen Stars, which is far beyond the comprehension of base Ka'dmon, who maintain creation via his power, and it is stated that they can actively u-dream creation as well, destroying it.Creation was described as every level of creation twice.Is a threat to the Celestials who was at least comparable to Heroes Reborn Franklin, who overloaded Man-Thing by channeling his energies through his body without being consciously aware , when previously Man-Thing has channeled energies of this level to an immense scale without any sign of distress)
Franklin Richards:

  • New AP and Justification : High Hyperverse Level (Child and Adult Franklin Richards are treated at least comparable to Well-Fed Galactus [ even calling him his mere Herald ] , who is comparable to Scrier, who are ludicrously superior to Fallen Stars such as Ka'dmon amped with the Nexus of All Realities & Fallen Stars, which is far beyond the comprehension of base Ka'dmon, who maintain creation via his power, and it is stated that they can actively u-dream creation as well, destroying it.Creation was described as every level of creation twice. Overloaded Man-Thing by channeling his energies through his body without being consciously aware , when previously Man-Thing has channeled energies of this level to an immense scale without any sign of distress. )
  • Possibly New Hax: "Law Manipulation/Conceptual Manipulation" (can write the Laws and Limits of Reality) [Otherwise not sure where to put it at] in terms of hax.
 
That explanation (about the conflicting cosmologies) isn't really backed up by any solid evidence so it'd be better for more input on how exactly to handle this. Personally, I don't have a problem with using it since conflicting details about cosmology is just something to be expected with Marvel and DC.

Your other major problem has already been stated here: Ant said we can't upgrade most cosmic entities to High 1-B based on just DeMatteis' work. I understand where he's coming from, because it doesn't really make logical sense for the universal abstracts to be High 1-B just like their multiversal counterparts.
 
Okay then. I shall leave that alone for the time being since consistencies are just what Marvel is.

That was also the major problem of the last thread as well. We kind of see it's possible for them to be that strong from the M-Bodies can perform feats of such a caliber such as during the Quasar event with Infinity vs Oblivion. This means in canon it is at least possible to have M-Bodies of the Abstracts be that powerful We see the Scrier, Galactus, and Other collisiion. Wee see the Celestials' role in Creation during Hickman's Run and Ultimates. There are also some statements about them being capable of Multiversal Destruction and an Rogue Celestial using Galactus to create an weapon capable of rendering the Omniverse. So there is at least some firmness to this proposal

I also perhaps propose maybe a key for Franklin for his massive power buff he got near the end of his storyline: "Abraxas-Secret Wars" because in terms of feats he's shown to be > Universal Abstract tier and likely in Multiversal Abstract tier just by feats alone... Even if the above isn't accepted, it's not as contradictory as It doesn't scale to anyone else and it's just for Franklin. Franklin was direct stated even as baby to get a lot stronger over time [Nathaniel stated it and Uatu even stated during the event he was far from his full potential]... It sort of makes sense since he went from Mephisto Level to Celestial Level in a few years.... which means his powers are developing at a massive rate... But he has feats to suggest above Universal Abstract Level. I remember distinctly that Abraxas was agreed to be High 1-B here .... Going to quote Schroeder so I'm not making this up [I'm fine with High 1-B Abraxas]. This makes sense as he is the direct antithesis to Multi-Eternity... His shadow. Anyways... A list of this so called upgraded version:

  • Injured an Multi-Eternity as a byproduct of using his powers to revive Galactus. Stated later by Uatu that he was a threat to All [Which since the comic dealt with the Multiverse I'm going to assume "All" means Multiverse in this specific context alone]. If Abraxas is actually accepted as High 1-B as Matthew suggested than Galactus harmed him soon after coming out of the Core of Eternity and Franklin rejuevenated him. There isn't anything contradictory here since Galactus wasn't on his own power but his own when revived by Franklin, which doesn't scale to any of his keys.
  • Manipulated the Superstructure of the Multiverse, which this Multiverses' Cosmology was accepted as High 1-B in Ultimates via Galactus' Upgrade to High 1-B via Lifebringer being accepted as High 1-B. He also likely helped rebuild Multi-Eternity via cosmology and Molecule Man being stated to have re-created Eternity [which doesn't make sense for him to have done so solo since again Molecule Man and Franklin was rebuilding all reality together... Every context in the comics hints at such so this cannot be made into an "possible exception"] which requires him to be working on this level.
It doesn't scale to anyone else sans him [except maybe those such as Matthew Malloy but he's an entirely different basket case] since this is absolute peak Franklin
 
Just a note that Oblivion is a concept that has been well integrated into Marvel's cosmology and repeatedly referred to by Marvel writers and the handbooks, whereas the Men of Lineage have apparently been ignored.
 
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