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FR & The Celestials' Proposal for New Key

The_2nd_Existential_Seed

The_2nd_Existential_Seed

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I mentioned this to PrinceofTheMorning... So I'll make this as painless as possible by stating what I asked Prince:

  • The Key Marvel Feats portraying them as High 1-B as well as a few which fit the timeline ["Spider-Man 1999", "Heroes Reborn: The Return", "Shamballa" , "Daydreamers", "Hyperstorm" , "Strange Tales", and some of the older comics involving this strange variation] seem to take place in an entirely different version of the Multiverse in comparison to the canon... Hence why I believe it could be considered a Key because it could be treated similarly to how we treat PR Beyonder in the sense it's an obvious retcon. If we assume they are 1-A based on what Ka'dmon's Strange Tales presented... It wouldn't be as bad.
How is this the case ? Well... Based on key difference in the story between variations and in-story statements implying there is a Mirror Multiverse similar to the Main Continuity but different that exists simultaneously with the Mainstream Comics.

  • Ka'dmon was retconned out of existence and never appears or is referenced again except for another comic also not considered canon an considered merely a reference to it.
  • Jonathan Richards stating in HIckman's Run this was the first time he met Franklin, when he did during the Hyperstorm incident... Which is canon to the aforementioned comics.
  • Eternity was considered far superior to the Celestials and the one controlling Heroes Reborn ... When in the canon Marvel Comics they revealed something completely different and threy are treated as comparable in every other instance.
  • The Heroes Reborn reality didn't cause destruction to the Multiverse in the canon comic... Nor did the return of the heroes in any canon comic cause some form of problems... Nor is this referenced any other time.
  • Scrier in those comics was described as being before Creation and superior to The Fallen Stars (who are regarded by WoG to be superior to the Living Tribunal and Oblivion... And according to Sandman may even have 1-A feats to support it from a previous thread discussing the Fallen Stars and Shamballa)... When this is also only ever implied in another non-canon comic... Which in the canon only treats him as a Universal Abstract at best
  • Heroes Reborn The Return is the only variation that encounters Man-Thing as Franklin's protector... Besides Daydreamers...Which is also non-canon.
  • The Marvunapp explicitly states Daydreamers and Strange Tales [Which the other comics mentioned above are canon to] take place in another "version" of the Mulltiverse
  • Asheena as well as Tiamut completely out of the picture but are referenced in the above comics and also non-canon comics.
The Main picture is that I'm planning to make those versions of FR and the Celestials with the "Heroes Reborn Multiverse" Key... Which addresses those versions as an alternate version, similar to how we treat PR Beyonder... Which would only be scalable to versions of those characters within those set of comics... Meaning it wouldn't mean "High 1-B Universal Abstracts" across the board and only to this specific variation. It'd only apply to those notably different in this version of Marvel [Like Scrier, FR, Celestials' Portrayal of Power, etc] . This would also solve the Scrier situation and basically almost every issue involving the inconsistency issue without much work needed. I'll make justifications for the Key... But we should also make a Discussion Rule if this is accepted to not scale between the two variations of the MU as it would cause massive inconsistencies.
 
Sorry I wasn't able to reply to your message before you made the thread. Anyway, to be blunt the only things in your post I'm familiar with are Hickman's FF run and the arcs with Tiamut; neither of those seem relevant to your main point. So I don't have any background knowledge that can help with this proposal.
 
No problem for the first question. I do understand as this took me dissecting this specific topic for years to come up with this. However I do believe this could work as it seems to be a different retcon akin to how we treat Beyonder ... Which would make everything easier as all we would need to do for some different enough to make said key is just insert key with the aforementioned tier and make a rule not to scale between the versions of Marvel.

Even with Tiamut being the strongest host is directly contradicted with TOAA's existence... As well as Scathan and a few other Celestials within the mainstream MU ... Especially once Ultimates is considered. Even in the sense of Hickman's Run his role as merely a Universal Shaper is blatantly contradicted in the aforementioned Alternate MU where all Franklin has are Multiversal Portrayals & scaling up until the mainstream comics which depict him solely as Universal... And while he's considered a peer to only the Universal Abstracts in the mainstream... Then the whole Strange Tales thing & Abraxas Arc (Which is also canon to the non-canon stuff I mentioned above... where context stated he was massively supressed by Valeria to the point she thought has no powers & can control them to be far less than what they normally... Yet can actually make a Multiversal Eternity + Infinity Fusion scream in pain.) makes his non-canon counterpart on par with some of the strongest in Marvel.

Non-Canon Continuity:

  • Comparable to the Multiversal Abstracts at his lowest point yet far from his full potential
  • Scales consistently to Multiversal levels
  • Re-created the Nexus of All Realities which in this variation is easily High 1-B [maximum lowball high-end 2-A] subconsciously... Meaning he didn't exert any effort
  • Is one of the more important characters cosmic wise and in this version TLT thought of him as a threat.... That's... Yeah.
Mainstream Marvel:

  • Merely Universal
  • Making multiple realities tires him out.
  • Only Abstract Level
  • Significant Story differences than Non-Canon in terms of Onslaught and cosmic importance...
If that doesn't scream this needs to be addressed I don't know what is.... Because from what it seems it seems to be the same criteria we used to make a key for the retconning of the Beyonder.
 
I think that it is good that you have accepted that Franklin and the Celestials are not currently considered to be of such a vast scale, and that you are slowly letting go of this topic.

However, in the case of the Beyonder, he was clearly officially linearly defined as different kinds of beings with different degrees of power over the years, whereas Franklin and the Celestials have just been treated in an incoherent manner in their appearances, especially given that J.M. DeMatteis always tries to force his spiritual/religious/philosophical concepts on characters that they do not at all fit for. I don't think that we can use a random order of inofficial retcons to scale them from. It wouldn't make any coherent sense for either ourselves or our visitors.
 
I appreciate your concern.

That's almost the kind of the same thing going on with this variation of the Multiverse. IN those specific comics which seem to be canon to each other and not the Mainstream Marvel Universe they not only have a different cosmic importance for the Multiverse, but also have different roles ad storylines that have some form of canon between them.. But not to the Mainstream Marvel Universe... So it's almost like a set Multiverse. We've made keys for significantly less different variations of a character before involving Marvel (jasper for instance)... So I figured something like this was easier to make keys for.

I'll be letting these people know ASAP.
 
Okay. I don't think that this seems like a practically workable idea though, and prefer if we try to maintain a reasonably coherent structure.
 
... It's debatably workable... Because it's confiding these portrayals under one key rather than affecting the entire profile and ... otherwise making a mess... Which is what I'd like to avoid. It would be incoherent if these timelines either weren't connected or had questionable canonicity in conjunction to each other.. or the feats from each of these had varying tiers...Which none of the aforementioned is the case as DaMateis' intended it to be canon to his storylines as well as the other non-canon comics do connect to his works by referencing them... Making a structured network for us to work with rather than a tangled spider web. It's one of the few times he does this on purpose... So I feel we should do as he intended and have a different version of them.


Jaspers Profile only difference in his other key is the fact he's a different universe variation and he has a different power level.. Everything else is so parallel he might as well be the same person. This idea has a lot of other difference, hence why I believe it's possible to make a key for.
 
Has Marvel itself stated that these are separate multiverses?
 
Marvunapp stated The Strange Tale Comics involving the Fallen Stars are in their own version of Marvel... Which is my main basis for this type of inclusion unto the profiles affected by it. Quasar also hinted it by having a version of reality have Pre-Retcon Beyonder in it.
 
Is that an official resource from Marvel itself?
 
They have referred to it in some guidebooks and the authors have used it to convey their thoughts on certain topics such as Strange Tales... So I'd assume so.
 
Considering we do something similar with the Beyonder, I wouldn't necessarily say this is out of the question, as the OP mentioned. I'll wait to see what else is brought up on this topic before saying anything else.
 
If it isn't even an officially published handbook, but rather a fan site, I am afraid that we cannot use it for evidence.

Also, even if we did, all it would mean is that the DeMatteis stories are basically considered as unofficial fanfiction, which isn't useful for the coherence of our indexing.
 
Marvel offically has used it in reference to look up details of the story for people to read... I doubt they would do it if they viewed it as some sort of "fan site"... Plus the publishers directly interview the Authors themselves for the information they put on the site... So it's directly to and from the Writers of those comics.

You could say that about almost any of the current meta story comics as of now... Which I would agree with... But that really isn't a rebuttal so much as of something about the story telling at best. It's structured enough, from those comics have consistent portrayals, and there are notable enough differences to have different keys rather than just saying it's the same chaacter with different feats.
 
The problem is that we need an official confirmation from Marvel editorial about this, not just that they tend to use the story indexing in the site to help them research details. This would need to be considered as an official separate storyline in the vein of Dragon Ball GT. We cannot incorporate lots of obscure out-of-continuity nonsense into our Marvel Comics indexing page.
 
Not really familiar with the Celestials' run, so really can't help much.
 
All we really need to know is that The Marvuanpp (which Marvel staff indeed recognizes as a resource used for accurate comic information based on referring to them several times) does state that the Strange Tales "Fallen Stars" comics take place in their own Multiverse... Because everything else is exceedingly easy to figure out otherwise. There isn't neccessarily a statement otheriwise direct linking between the stories, such as referencing Ka'dmon during the events of Spider-Man 1999 when the Fallen Stars help save Creation , then an non-canon Hulk references Ka'dmon from the Fallen Stars, another non-canon comic addresses Ka'dmon as a Universal Abstract , then adding them creates a web of continuity.

The other comics referenced above are part of DaMatteis' Multiverse in the sense those events are directly referenced and utilized within their lore, essentially making DaMatteis' Multiverse a part of their own, not to mention "Daydreamers" and two versions of "The Heroes Reborn" (namely Heroes Reborn: Asheena and The Return) was directly created by him and reference his previous works while the Mainstream Comics don't ever reference his creations/plot not once... So it's heavily implied.


I'm still not certain why we are going through all of this back and forth over something so simple in application. We've done something similar and as redundant as creating a key for someone just by being a alternate universe version with no character difference other than it takes place in a differing reality for many fictional verses, including Marvel. These versions have notable enough differences (power, personality, different continuity, role in the story, vastly different canonical events in comparison to the original) to be differentiated from so no back and forth inconsistent scaling between these versions and the mainstream versions would be very easy to spot and deal with then.
 
Because this would be based on a fan site and likely cause confusion for our visitors, so I am very uncertain.
 
Why are you hung on the fact it's a fan site when the authors have communicated directly with the publishers to add the information there... It's directly from them. It's literally a published catalog of the author's summaries on each of the important issues of a certain character. Marvunapp isn't a fan site. It's literally just a catalog of information the Marvel staff recognizes as a offical sources as it's been used by the authors themselves ... Even DaMatteis used it to show some issues of a comic he didn't release yet to the public (Strange Tales 1999 Issue 4) .. Which was neve released but the author gave one of the publishers the ifnormation about it to catalog inside of the Fallen Stars' page..
 
The fan site asking a few independent authors for information about what they intended in old stories, does still not mean that Marvel the company, or rather their editorial department, has officially recognised this particular piece of information as accurate. As such, I am very uncertain. However, you should ask other knowledgeable staff members, such as Matthew, Kepekley23, and Sera EX, to comment here.
 
I'm not asking Matthew because he seems to only like doing one word responses without any evidence to back up his claim other than " I know it and you don't".... Which this topic doesn't need. It's been addressed several times, and I don't want to take any chances on him doing that here as well. I'll ask Kepekley though.

I don't think we need the entire editorial office to agree (because the entire editorial agreeing on something like this is a ridiculous qualification when Marvel Writers outright stated they revel in their inconsistency... So asking that as an qualification that would completely contradict their intent for Marvel is... not wise) that somethings a different Multiverse to be a different Multiverse... That IMHO is being ridiculously nitpicky for somethi. Anyways... About Marvunapp being a acknowledged source by the editorial staff ... One of the hanbooks showed this:


https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/484250667423236096/496002932219838464/RCO002_w_1479805934.jpg

Specifically near the bottom ... They explicitly state that those who work on the Appendix (The Handbooks) are the same people helping with Marvunapp.... So it isn't run by fans whatsoever.
 
"Special thanks to" does not mean that they automatically endorse everything listed in the site, just that they use it as a useful resource.

Look, I am just saying that we do not know if the "separate multiverse" part is just informed speculation from whoever wrote the page, even though it makes some sense.
 
My main problem with that is the fact that due to Marvunapp's guidelines they are required to get every piece of info they put on that site directly from The Authors of those comics ... None of it is allowed to be "merely" their speculation.... Otherwise they consider it false information automatically.
 
Understandable. Really it is. I'm happy that this hasn't gone off to a less civil end here. You can argue that we make profiles for alternate versions based on far less reliable criteria. They had to be:

  • Different enough to be noticeably different... Appearance doesn't count.
  • Has to have some of their key events different
  • Different Characterization.
For example... How we view the Cinematic Universe and Marvel Comics. They have different storylines, different characterization but similar core concepts, and take place in another Universe... They have profiles. Essentially this is similar to the extent it qualifies under the 3 bullet points notioned above.

I'll talk to those notable members.
 
Well, another problem is that we do not tend to go by author intentions so much as what is shown and stated in the stories themselves, along with official editorially mandated policy in the case of Marvel, given the sheer number of writers.
 
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