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Marvel Cosmology Downgrade

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This thread was turning completely out of control, and Milly had nothing to do with this discussion previously. He evidently only joined the gang-up out of spite. Also, I haven't noticed Deagonx relentlessly attacking you. He has done some in my view warranted criticism though.

However, this is even more derailing of this disaster thread.
 
Deagonx said:
Marvel is a mess
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Yes. Completely. It is very unsuitable for any powerscaling wiki to try to make coherent sense of.

Anyway, I apologise for my likely overly authoritarian irritability and mismanagement of the argument above. As I mentioned, I still have over a hundred different tasks to deal with before I go to bed, and am under great amounts of mental stress and strain at the moment, which I am not able to deal with well yet.
 
Deagonx said:
I don't see this getting sorted out in debate format. I think if the cosmology is overhauled it's going to require a dedicated team like with DC.
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That would be extremely appreciated, yes, but I have repeatedly asked for help in that regard and not received any yet.
 
Deagonx said:
Marvel is a mess
Click to expand...
Deagonx said:
I don't see this getting sorted out in debate format. I think if the cosmology is overhauled it's going to require a dedicated team like with DC.
Click to expand...
It appears that this concept may require the creation of a new cosmology page and an explanatory page to provide clarification. However, this project is big as DC one.
 
Antvasima said:
That would be extremely appreciated, yes, but I have repeatedly asked for help in that regard and not received any yet.
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Let's pretend you haven't asked me this in over a year, and that i didn't split the cosmology and your best argument was that you are incapable of reading comics and giving a coherent assessment other than using those admin rights of yours to deny proposals with your downplayer point of view.
 
Alonik said:
Let's pretend you haven't asked me this in over a year, and that i didn't split the cosmology and your best argument was that you are incapable of reading comics and giving a coherent assessment other than using those admin rights of yours to deny proposals with your downplayer point of view.
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For gods' sakes, it is not downplay to not want all universe-busting Marvel Comics superheroes and supervillains, and likely all regular inhabitants of said universes to automatically get High 1-B statistics based on a few completely disconnected scans gathered from very few of Marvel's over 100,000 stories, when the settings have consistently been portrayed in a 3-dimensional manner. I am perfectly fine with the nexus itself, and as such the Marvel multiverse, being infinite-dimensional, but I do not want to cause enormous amounts of very ill-considered damage to the reliability of our statistics as a whole. That is all.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
I see this thread's devolved quite a bit while I was gone.

In any case. What's the current consensus? I don't exactly want to type out a post only to find that the thread has been closed all of a sudden, so, well? May we continue after the previous mess?
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The cosmology needs a re-evaluation and a new cosmology page, but you can drop your post if you want to. Your input is highly appreciated.
 
Antvasima said:
For gods' sakes, it is not downplay to not want all universe-busting Marvel Comics superheroes and supervillains, and likely all regular inhabitants of said universes to automatically get High 1-B statistics based on a few completely disconnected scans gathered from very few of Marvel's over 100,000 stories, when the settings have consistently been portrayed ina 3-dimensional manner. I am perfectly fine with the nexus itself, and as such the Marvel multiverse, being infinite-dimensional, but I do not want to cause enormous amounts of very ill-considered damage.
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It doesn't matter if it's the universe or the multiverse, the point is that no such hero or villain will scale, we just want a High 1-B Multiverse based on the evidence we brought. If you want to interpret the Zone as something that connects the entire multiverse, or that it's just inside the 616, whatever.
 
Anyway, I really hope that you will be very careful to not allow overly extreme upgrades that do not make logical sense with the context of the setting as a whole, as I have to leave and perform other tasks now.

@Deagonx @Eficiente @Firestorm808 @Elizio33 @Qawsedf234

I would greatly appreciate your help with keeping this revision from not going completely out of control please. Our Marvel Comics statistics have increasingly gone completely to hell since Impress left.
 
Alonik said:
It doesn't matter if it's the universe or the multiverse, the point is that no such hero or villain will scale, we just want a High 1-B Multiverse based on the evidence we brought. If you want to interpret the Zone as something that connects the entire multiverse, or that it's just inside the 616, whatever.
Click to expand...
Well, I have no problem whatsoever with the nexus only scaling to the Marvel multiverse. I only have a problem with all tier 2 Marvel Comics characters suddenly being upgraded to High 1-B or above, as well as all inhabitants of regular universes automatically being infinite-dimensional, as that doesn't make any logical sense.

And since the Negative Zone is clearly established to be a regular sized mirror-universe, the nexuses that intersect with it should logically only scale to the multiverse itself.
 
Yes, it has been hair-tearingly frustrating for me to deal with all the likely over a hundred attempts over the years to take a few scans out of context to attempt to squeeze the highest statistics possible out of it, even though there are likely more instances of herald-level characters being portrayed as tier 9 or 8 than 3 or 2. Also, even for the people who are genuinely trying to make sense of it all in a coherent and consistent manner, it is extremely difficult to do so.
 
Antvasima said:
I would greatly appreciate your help with keeping this revision from not going completely out of control please. Our Marvel Comics statistics have increasingly gone completely to hell since Impress left.
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Compared to the OP, how has the current topic changed? If the argument is the Cantor Set/Infinite Dimensional universe stuff I thought we got said those weren't useable forever ago.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Compared to the OP, how has the current topic changed? If the argument is the Cantor Set/Infinite Dimensional universe stuff I thought we got said those weren't useable forever ago.
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There was some ongoing contentions primarily about to what degree the Cantor stuff could be used and how we would tier some of the stuff like the Negative Zone and Crossroads of Infinity. Neither reached definitive conclusions unfortunately. Then the derailing happened
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Compared to the OP, how has the current topic changed? If the argument is the Cantor Set/Infinite Dimensional universe stuff I thought we got said those weren't useable forever ago.
Click to expand...
Well, I am personally fine with a High 1-B Marvel multiverse, and possibly higher, but there has been an intense controversy regarding the Negative Zone, as it has consistently been established to be an antimatter mirror-iniverse and also to intersect with an infinite-dimensional nexus. However, I have been extremely stressed out from attempting to deal with apparent attempts to make the Negative Zone itself and all other comparably large universes High 1-B instead of just the multiversal nexuses, as it would automatically scale to all tier 2 marvel Comics characters, and likely make all of the inhabitants in them infinite-dimensional as an automatic consequence, which doesn't make any logical sense, and would completely destroy all remaining credibility for our Marvel Comics character profile pages.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, I am personally fine with a High 1-B Marvel multiverse, and possibly higher, but there has been an intense controversy regarding the Negative Zone, as it has consistently been established to be an antimatter mirror-iniverse and also to intersect with an infinite-dimensional nexus. However, I have been extremely stressed out from attempting to deal with apparent attempts to make the Negative Zone itself and all other comparably large universes High 1-B instead of just the multiversal nexuses, as it would automatically scale to all tier 2 marvel Comics characters, and likely make all of the inhabitants in them infinite-dimensional as an automatic consequence, which doesn't make any logical sense, and would completely destroy all remaining credibility for our Marvel Comics character profile pages.
Click to expand...
Well, just living or existing in an infinite dimensional realm doesn't make you automatically High 1-B.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, I am personally fine with a High 1-B Marvel multiverse, and possibly higher, but there has been an intense controversy regarding the Negative Zone, as it has consistently been established to be an antimatter mirror-iniverse and also to intersect with an infinite-dimensional nexus. However, I have been extremely stressed out from attempting to deal with apparent attempts to make the Negative Zone itself and all other comparably large universes High 1-B instead of just the multiversal nexuses, as it would automatically scale to all tier 2 marvel Comics characters, and likely make all of the inhabitants in them infinite-dimensional as an automatic consequence, which doesn't make any logical sense, and would completely destroy all remaining credibility for our Marvel Comics character profile pages.
Click to expand...
Antvasima if your concern is that Blastaar and Annihilus would scale to High 1-B and then all the heroes would be scaled, don't fret about it, because Annihilus himself exists far from the zones of distortions of the Negative Zone, because it destroys anti-matter. So much so that there is a scan of the distortion zones forcing his existence in Ultima's first reply, as if he gets too close to the densest point of these distortions of higher dimensions he just is erased.
 
Gasper said:
Well, just living or existing in an infinite dimensional realm doesn't make you automatically High 1-B.
Click to expand...
It wouldn't make any sense if every single inhabitant of these infinite-dimensional universes would happen to be 3-dimensional. From what I understand we are also all really 11-dimensional just like our real world universe, so the characteristics would usually automatically be shared as far as I am aware.
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. Please elaborate.
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We already accept that in-principle there's no default state of the multiverse. It canonically changes because of the House.
Antvasima said:
It wouldn't make any sense if every single inhabitant of these infinite-dimensional universes would happen to be 3-dimensional.
Click to expand...
If they only have three dimensional volumes and only exist in three dimensions then they're three-dimensional. You can live in a Tier 0 universe and still only be Tier 11, they're axis volumes in all other directions would just be 0.
 
Alonik said:
Antvasima if your concern is that Blastaar and Annihilus would scale to High 1-B and then all the heroes would be scaled, don't fret about it, because Annihilus himself exists far from the zones of distortions of the Negative Zone, because it destroys anti-matter. So much so that there is a scan of the distortion zones forcing his existence in Ultima's first reply, as if he gets too close to the densest point of these distortions of higher dimensions he just is erased.
Click to expand...
I have much bigger concerns than that. As was firmly established in the linked comic book reading site stories in one of my posts from other threads that I linked to above, including the original Annihilation event, the Negative Zone has been firmly established to be a negative mirror of the same size as the regular Marvel universes, so every single universe-buster or creator, and all other characters that scale to them, would suddenly be upgraded from tier 2 to High 1-B if you get your way.

It makes much greater logical sense that the multiversal nexus within the Negative Zone would share the same nature as all other multiversal nexuses that have been established within the Marvel Comics continuity, including Captain Britain's lighthouse, Mister Fantastic's self-created portal, the Crossroads dimension, the M'Kraan Crystal (likely spelled wrong), and the Nexus of Realities. meaning, that they are higher-dimensional constructs that intersect with lower-dimensional realities, but certainly aren't bound by them, which is also proven by that they can be used for transsport all across the Marvel multiverse.
 
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Qawsedf234 said:
We already accept that in-principle there's no default state of the multiverse. It canonically changes because of the House.
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Well, we would still need to split the cosmology in that case.
Qawsedf234 said:
If they only have three dimensional volumes and only exist in three dimensions then they're three-dimensional. You can live in a Tier 0 universe and still only be Tier 11, they're axis volumes in all other directions would just be 0.
Click to expand...
That might make sense for a part of them, but it seems to strain incredulity an awful lot to assume that every single inhabitant of an infinite-dimensional universe would be three- or four-dimensional, rather than perceive each universe as a 4-dimensional brane as in the real world.

Also, even if we use this interpretation, we would have to wipe out tier 2 entirely for Marvel Comics and make a very large part of our regular superheroes and supervillain tier High 1-B, which is still completely unreasonable, unreliable, and destructive.
 
Antvasima said:
I have much bigger concerns than that. As was firmly established in the linked comic book reading site stories in one of my posts from other threads that I linked to above, including the original Annihilation event, the Negative Zone has been firmly established to be a negative mirror of the same size as the regular Marvel universes, so every single universe-buster or creator, and all other characters that scale to them, would suddenly be upgraded from tier 2 to High 1-B if you get your way.

It makes much greater logical sense that the multiversal nexus within the Negative Zone would share the same nature as all other multiversal nexuses that have been established within the Marvel Comics continuity, including Captain Britain's lighthouse, Mister Fantastic's self-created portal, the Crossroads dimension, the M'Kraan Crystal (likely spelled wrong), and the Nexus of Realities. meaning, that they are higher-dimensional constructs that intersect with lower-dimensional realities, but certainly aren't bound by them, which is also proven by that they can be used for trasnsport all across the Marvel multiverse.
Click to expand...
See here:

read comic online.li/Comic/Thanos/Issue-7?id=55153

read comic online.li/Comic/Annihilation/Issue-1?id=39409

read comic online.li/Comic/Annihilation-Prologue/Full?id=75093

read comic online.li/Comic/Annihilation-Heralds-Of-Galactus/Issue-2?id=78094

read comic online.li/Comic/Annihilation-The-Nova-Corps-Files/Full?id=83445
 
Antvasima said:
That might make sense for a part of them, but it seems to strain incredulity an awful lot to assume that every single inhabitant of an infinite-dimensional universe would be three- or four-dimensional, rather than perceive each universe as a 4-dimensional brane as in the real world.
Click to expand...
Ant, it would not. We literally exist in this state in the real world. You can exist in a realm of infinite dimensional axis but only have 3 or 5 or 80 with any volume to them.
Antvasima said:
Also, even if we use this interpretation, we would have to wipe out tier 2 entirely for Marvel Comics
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We wouldn't because you're confusing existing in a n-D space with being n-D space. A 3-Dimensional Character in fiction can affect an infinite-dimensional volume. No one would be downgraded because they can affect volumes greater than themselves.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Ant, it would not. We literally exist in this state in the real world. You can exist in a realm of infinite dimensional axis but only have 3 or 5 or 80 with any volume to them.
Click to expand...
But the real world multiverse, if it exists, is divided into 4-dimensional segments/branes, which we live in and correspond to, if I have understood correctly. It is not remotely the same thing.
Qawsedf234 said:
We wouldn't because you're confusing existing in a n-D space with being n-D space. A 3-Dimensional Character in fiction can affect an infinite-dimensional volume. No one would be downgraded because they can affect volumes greater than themselves.
Click to expand...
The tier 2 characters in question all scale from universe-busting or creating feats, so yes, they would all automatically end up at tier High 1-B. As such, I much prefer to use Occam's Razor and interpret the multiversal transportation nexus accessible via the Negative Zone as working exactly the same way as all other multiversal transportation nexuses within Marvel Comics, meaning that they are not remotely bound by the universes that they connect with, and they definitely wouldn't even be possible to use for multiversal transport if they were each contained within and confined by a single universe.
 
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