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Marvel Comics: Possible Yggdrasil Upgrade - Part 3

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I don't, it was a typo. I haven't conceded to any of your claims nor will I because they're unsubstantiated.

The scan doesn't prove anything though because it's not showing Yggdrasil, and you can't prove it does. Only think that it does by stretching literalisms. As you have done for the past threads.
 
Essences is itself being used as a word to denote individual realities in this. Nothing there is related to Yggdrasil whatsoever.

Secondly, the image of the Loki Tree is metaphorical. It's symbolism for Loki's fate in all universes. Nothing more and nothing less.

Thirdly, I won't drop the claim. However, I ask you to drop the strawmaning because this is neither the first nor the second time you misconstruct my argument, even after I go out of my way to clarify myself in posts. I never implied that Loki talking about parallel universes wasn't literal. My point was that the usage of the word "branch" is clearly not literal. The context of the story proper proves it.

I ask you to debate in good faith and not poison the well, Kep, because it is difficult to do so otherwise under potentially deliberate strawmaning.
 
> Essences is itself being used as a word to denote individual realities in this.

No, it isn't.

  • There are many Lokis... Just as there are many Thors, and many balders. Each one exists apart from the other, yet is conjoined by a shared essence, like branches on a tree. In some incarnations, Loki is called Lock, in some, he is Loge, in still others, Lokes, or Loder. But I have never seen one where he rules.
The essences being talked about here are whatever connects the Thors between realities, not the realities themselves. Loki, doubtful about the existence of one such iteration where he was the King, seeks a sorceress to show him the infinite other versions of himself.

The context is still clearly on the essence connecting everything together, as I said above.

Then, the sorceress summons a vision of Loki's fate, showing that the branches were literal afterall, and that they were indeed the essence that connected all those different Thors together.

> Secondly, the image of the Loki Tree is metaphorical. It's symbolism for Loki's fate in all universes. Nothing more and nothing less.

Scans.

> However, I ask you to drop the strawmaning because this is neither the first nor the second time you misconstruct my argument, even after I go out of my way to clarify myself in posts. I never implied that Loki talking about parallel universes wasn't literal. My point was that the usage of the word "branch" is clearly not literal. The context of the story proper proves it.

Never misinterpreted anything. I always knew what you meant, and that's what I've been debunking in my past 15 posts, not stuff about "parallel realities".

> I ask you to debate in good faith and not poison the well, Kep, because it is difficult to do so otherwise under potentially deliberate strawmaning.

Will you immediately stop accusing everyone who argues with you of poisoning the well and deliberately taking you out of context? Thank you.
 
"Never misinterpreted anything. I always knew what you meant, and that's what I've been debunking in my past 15 posts, not stuff about "parallel realities"."

If you knew what I meant, then why my you misconstruct my argument to try and make me look like a fool? It's not a good look. I don't appreciate it.

"Will you immediately stop accusing everyone who argues with you of poisoning the well and deliberately taking you out of context? Thank you."

I can't help but feel paranoid when you take me out of context and misrepresent my arguments many times in a row. In fact this very last post seems to have misrepresented me either.

As for the argument itself... You still haven't proven anything. The Loki Tree is not a literal representation of Yggdrasil nor is the usage of the word "branches" when describing parallel universes a reference to Yggdrasil. We know this because at no point in all four issues of the comic miniseries is the World Tree ever referenced, spoken about, or name-dropped. This is an absolute fact. I'm not sure you picked this hill to die on, but frankly it's a waste of time because it's such a non-issue to argue against. You don't need to make giant reply posts nor do you need to analyze dozens of scans. Because not only are there next to no scans, they also show nothing, and if you actually read the comic you'll see there's nothing either.
 
> If you knew what I meant, then why my you misconstruct my argument to try and make me look like a fool? It's not a good look. I don't appreciate it.

I didn't. I just responded to it. No need to feel offended by an innocent response, really.

> As for the argument itself... You still haven't proven anything. The Loki Tree is not a literal representation of Yggdrasil nor is the usage of the word "branches" when describing parallel universes a reference to Yggdrasil

What cosmic tree is this that connects the Norse Gods if not Yggdrasil? At no point in Marvel Comics is a cosmic tree of the Norse Gods ever, ever talked about, if not Yggdrasil. It doesn't need to be plainly stated that this is the World Tree, when it can be inferred just via raw context. Especially when this storyline repeatedly mentions the 9 Realms.
 
"What cosmic tree is this that connects the Norse Gods if not Yggdrasil? At no point in Marvel Comics is a cosmic tree of the Norse Gods ever, ever talked about, if not Yggdrasil. It doesn't need to be plainly stated that this is the World Tree, when it can be inferred just via raw context. Especially when this storyline repeatedly mentions the 9 Realms"

You're moving the goalposts. Yggdrasil connects the Norse Realms but not all infinite universes. And yes, things of such magnitude need to be stated. You can't just "infer" something from half a line of dialogue. I'm sorry if you think that's unfair but maybe the wiki isn't for you if you think otherwise.
 
As I mentioned earlier, the staff consensus against this upgrade is far too strong for it to ever be accepted. This thread should be closed and the argument permanently dropped. It is wasting all of our time and energy for nothing.

Here are the starting points of the entire relevant storylines for all to see if they want the full contexts:

https://***************.to/Comic/Thor-1998/Issue-80?id=8359

https://***************.to/Comic/Loki-Agent-of-Asgard/Issue-14?id=11890
 
> You're moving the goalposts. Yggdrasil connects the Norse Realms but not all infinite universes.

There are multiple scans out there, outside this storyline, that speak of the Yggdrasil as connecting infinite realities, so if you're simply saying that there is no precedent for this rating, that's false too.

> And yes, things of such magnitude need to be stated. You can't just "infer" something from half a line of dialogue. I'm sorry if you think that's unfair but maybe the wiki isn't for you if you think otherwise.

1. Chill with that subtle "get out of the wiki if you think this" accusation, lol.

2. This is a cosmic tree of the Norse Gods, that connects infinite versions of them, in a storyline that is about the Nine Realms of the Norse Gods. No, things don't need to be explicitly mentioned when the context can be used to infer them.

And, most importantly, I just realized something: This discussion is completely and utterly secondary to the main point, and it's derailing the main course of the argument and the attention to the most important subject, which is Low 1-A/1-A TWSAIS.
 
Antvasima said:
As I mentioned earlier, the staff consensus against this upgrade is far too strong for it to ever be accepted. This thread should be closed and the argument permanently dropped. It is wasting all of our time and energy for nothing.
Here are the starting points of the entire relevant storylines for all to see if they want the full contexts:

https://***************.to/Comic/Thor-1998/Issue-80?id=8359

https://***************.to/Comic/Loki-Agent-of-Asgard/Issue-14?id=11890
Click to expand...
I agree. Or else we'll go for another 9 threads that'll lead nowhere each. But ultimately I think the judgement of closing the thread or not lies with you.
 
The judgement of closing the thread or not doesn't lie with Ant or anyone else. Especially not now that more and more people are participating in both sides.
 
Look, again, according to our standards we need some sort of staff consensus approval for any major statistics changes to be applied. In this case most of the staff are against the suggestions, whereas the people arguing in favour of it are a single staff member and some regular members who have barely been active in the wiki outside of this discussion. It simply isn't going to be approved, ever. Wasting our time with yet another 900 posts of argument in a war of attrition is utterly pointless and irresponsible, as we have other tasks to take care of in the wiki.
 
ParadoxIndifferent said:
The judgement of closing the thread or not doesn't lie with Ant or anyone else. Especially not now that more and more people are participating.
Click to expand...
It's the same few people since the last few thread going back and forth with the same scans over and over. But ultimately Ant is right, there is a considerable staff pushback against this upgrade, enough to make it impossible to approved.
 
I honestly don't see any reason to close this thread, though? There is a good amount of people who agree with the upgrades (Myself being one of them), both Staff and Non-Staff, so bringing up "consensus" is a moot point, since that's not something decided solely by the higher ups or whatever you want to call it in this case. Regular Users' opinion have weight as well.

Besides, the thread just calmed down after the massive heat going on here, and the only thing slowing it down are secondary discussions that are barely relevant to the main topic, such as whether or not Yggdrasil contains infinite timelines, which is taking up a good chunk of the thread, at this point. That some people keep throwing light jabs at each other doesn't help, either.
 
Actually, at this point in this circular neverending argument, I would be more than justified to close it as unconstructive and pointless. The problem is that Kepekley has heavily implied that he is going to disrespect my decision as councilor and longest serving bureaucrat and open it again anyway, or restart it elsewhere. It is much better if you simply respect that you are trying to brute force a change that is not going to pass according to our rules, and that this has to stop as soon as possible.
 
At this point, just leave the thread if it tires you out so much. Something I heavily doubt: you have barely contributed much other than agreeing with people's arguments, and I heavily doubt your short responses to my posts have done remotely anything to "completely tire out and waste your time"

And, lastly, please immediately stop trying to silence people and using your position as an argument, too. Especially when several staff members who disagreed have actually demonstrated interest in engaging on rational debate as opposed to just going "close this thread to silence the supporters, yes!"
 
Matt, please stop inciting and fanning the flames on this thread, and let it return to peaceful, civilized and rational debate, as it literally just was prior to the newest 20 posts. Thank you.
 
I have tried to act peaceful myself a lot. Though it became difficult to do so when I had my arguments misrepresented and strawmaned over and over in an effort to waste time.

I want to debate in good faith but I feel others don't.
 
@Ultima

I made a tally in the first post. Most staff members disagree with this, and virtually all need to agree with some sort of consensus or compromise for something like this to pass.

@Paradox

I am not trying to shut you up. You have had your say to an extreme degree, but it is part of my responsibilities to try to gauge when discussions have turned unproductive and pointless, and what I said earlier still applies.

In addition, I used to respond plenty in the earlier threads, but given that I already take care of so much general management of the wiki/am overworked enough as it is, I ended up not getting enough sleep for several days because of it, so it turned unmanageable to deal with the brute force war of attrition going on.

You and the other people backing Kepekley up, other than Ultima, have barely even been active in the wiki outside of this discussion. The last I saw you before this, Kepekley helped you to ask for money donations due to a stated personal crisis, despite you allegedly having good finished education in a country that is not particularly poor as of yet. Mind you, I helped you out with this, since I feel responsible for the wellbeing of the community, but in retrospect it is suspicious that you couldn't get 50 bucks on your own. It is also suspicious that you are not showing more respect towards me if your life really was in danger and I saved you.
 
Ultima Reality said:
They do, Matt, and I can say that in good faith. Knowing the two perspectives on a debate actually helps a lot.
Click to expand...
I... Find it odd that you showed up again after nearly three threads of not being active.

Most of all I often feel you're naively deceived but that'sn either here nor there.
 
Ultima is being very reasonable here, and tbh; both Matt and Kepekley have been rather harsh to each other. Although, he wasn't active on the Marvel discussion up until now as Matt said. I not going to point fingers as they're both understandably super stressed with this discussion as I am too. And it's obvious Antvasima is probably the most stressed one given the hard work he puts into the wiki. And while I am on the side of Antvasima and Matt regarding result, I don't think either side is ever going to budge any time soon. Sure forcefully closing the discussion might be a bad idea, but we can't argue in circles forever.

It might be a better idea to ask around other staff members or those level headed on the new tiering system.
 
> You and the other people backing Kepekley up, other than Ultima, have barely even been active in the wiki outside of this discussio

I'm extremely active in the VSBW Discord, and most staff members and regular users are familiar with me as a result.

> The last I saw you before this, Kepekley helped you to ask for money donations due to a stated personal crisis, despite allegedly having good finished education in a country that is not particularly poor as of yet. Mind you, I helped you out with this, since I feel responsible for the wellbeing of the community, but in retrospect it is suspicious that you couldn't get 50 bucks on your ow

And what exactly are you attempting to imply with this, pray tell?
 
@Matt

I was gone for the past two threads because I really didn't feel like engaging in this gigantic discussion that is mostly comprised of points that were already addressed both by me and by other people as far as 17 Days Ago. I've been following this debate and decided to jump in here again because you all are just threatening to close the thread precisely because of the reason I choose to avoid it, and in the exact time it calmed down, at that.

I'd also like you to spare me of your worry, Matt, you're just making yourself look bad and coming across as immensely pretentious while doing so, as you tend to regurlarly do these days. Thank you very much.
 
@Paradox

I am just saying that you have started to trigger my suspicions. Things do not add up properly with you.
 
The VSBW Discord is irrelevant. And in fact it has a fairly toxic environment that's contributed a lot to the state of the wiki in current year.
 
Antvasima said:
@Paradox

I am just saying that you have started to trigger my suspicions. Things do not add up properly with you.
Click to expand...
You can ask literally any staff member who I regularly interact with, such as Wokistan, Ultima, Cal, Darkgrath, Promestein, and everyone else who knows me from Discord, and they'll confirm that I am a regular user, as real and reasonable as any other, and that the hacking incident affected me for weeks afterward.

Please stop with the subtle accusations. I'm extremely grateful for your help back then, and if I recall correctly I apologized for disagreeing with you for this exact reason in the very first thread, but I am heavily offended by what you are attempting to "subtly" suggest with this post.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The VSBW Discord is irrelevant. And in fact it has a fairly toxic environment that's contributed a lot to the state of the wiki in current year.
Click to expand...
And did I say anything about the VSBW Discord being "relevant" to this discussion? I simply said that I am a well known regular user and brought it up to counteract Ant's slight-handed jab at my honesty.
 
Well, maybe I am just being paranoid. It is part of my nature to be suspicious regarding things that fall outside of a logical pattern, and a bunch of almost single-issue accounts showing up to engage in a relentless war of attrition is enough to trigger said light paranoia.
 
No but I find the trend of increasing numbers of echo-chambers who discuss all upgrades and revisions on private / off-site groups beforehand and then open the thread already 100% convinced on their side and unwilling to change to be extremely detrimental to the website.

And this is one such instance. Both of us no that this won't have any conclusion.
 
You know, I'm actually not unable to accept the idea that I might be wrong about Thor. That we might be wrong. Neither is Kep, having talked to him about it in private.

We just feel that you guys' way of handling it is shady as all hell, being triggered by this thread's continuous existence and refusing to simply proceed with rational debate.

You two are literally the only people here to be bothered by the thread still existing, with the possible exception of Hykuu (someone who is not open-minded about anything that contradicts his views)
 
Hey, thanks for including an irrelevant discord group in this debacle, very happy about it.

1. The discord isn't tied to this. Bringing it up is a strawman. While the discord is a cursed hellhole of inescapable proportions, it is not a place that actively wanks Marvel or whatever it is you seem to imply.

2. Communication off-site isn't inherently a bad thing. Saying " off-site groups beforehand and then open the thread already 100% convinced on their side" is true isn't the same as saying it's a bad thing. And it isn't. Discussing beforehand any topic is good. I use it (Discord) to talk to D&D people about stuff where we often hash it out and figure out our conclusions. Being sure of yourself isn't a si. Being unwilling to change your mind is not a symptom of Discord but one of the individual.

3. People on both sides need to calm down. You're ostensibly three threads into this discussion, closing it now seems like a pointless endeavor. Matt taking jabs at people, other users returning them in kind (saw that, Ultima), isn't actually beneficial to anyone.

4. I'd also like to say that I have no idea who Paradox is outside of Discord. I've never talked to him on the site. The discord isn't tied to this discussion or its users. It's for fun. Says so right on the tin, right in the moderation section of the discord. To be clear, yeah, I know of Paradox in the Discord, he talks to Kep all the time. This edited segment of the message was asked for by Kep, who felt it important. Don't look at me b0ss.

Thanks for your time, return to your CRT, now. Cheers.
 
It isn't shady. Since the thread was going around in circles, took too much time and energy, and was too long to get more staff input, I and ClassicNESfan restarted it in a more evenhanded summary manner for the staff to decide, and when that didn't work out, due to insufficient input and accusations thrown my way, I opened it up for everybody to respond again, which brought us back to the original situation.

However, what Matthew mentioned about otherwise mostly inactive members at Discord or elsewhere deciding beforehand to team up to force a single issue, does seem to likely apply here, and I agree with him that this has turned into a more general problem for the wiki, given that it is hard for the staff to do their jobs of being buffers against unreliable upgrades, if they are being overwhelmed by a brute force tide of posts by many other members at once.
 
@Mr. Bambu

My apologies if I went too far and derailed. I will leave to handle other tasks for a while now.
 
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