Marvel Comics: Possible Yggdrasil Upgrade - Part 3

[Antvasima]

Matthew has not behaved nearly as bad as he has been treated in these threads as far as I am aware, and if you start to actively undermine staff authority, that could turn into a problem.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

This thread wouldn't have gotten nearly as bad as it currently is were it not for Matthew acting like a 12-year old nd then being offended and accusing people when they responded to him in the same tone. As I said, you keep turning a blind eye to people just because their name is a specific color. I don't trust him at all to evaluate this issue compared to people like PrinceoftheMorning or even NESFan, who have actually tried to argue, and he has done nothing deserve respect.

 

[Antvasima]

You keep insulting and mocking him over and over in multiple posts, whereas he has behaved comparatively well, and this wiki would cease to function properly if regular members started to constantly behave in this manner, so it sets a dangerous precedent. I would appreciate if you permanently stop it.

 

[Antvasima]

He also has a long history of trying to help this wiki get reliable statistics as well as he has been able to with his available time.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

He only behaves comparatively well to you because he agrees with you. He has continuously mocked people who agree with this upgrade, and was the one to start this whole mess. Just look at the previous thread without wool over your eyes, Antvasima.

As I have told you, I don't condone with people who attempt to invent nonsense to discredit others as "desperate liars" and sarcastically mock people for their beliefs. I don't care about the color of his name or his reliability in the distant past. It doesn't excuse his current behavior which you continuously ignore.

Anyway, I recognize that I might have been too trigger-happy and aggressive in my past post, but I would still prefer if unbiased knowledgeable members were the ones to evaluate my post.

 

[Antvasima]

Again, I haven't noticed anything remotely comparable to the sum total vitriole that he has been subjected to. He has been comparatively levelheaded in these threads as far as I am aware.

 

[Aridwolverine]

He also has a long history of trying to help this wiki get reliable statistics as well as he has been able to with his available time.

Ignoring an admin's misconduct simply because their useful is considered an abuse of power Ant. No staff, regardless of what they have done in the past, is immune to the rules.

 

[Antvasima]

It should take considerable infractions for a staff member to be demoted and banned, considering that we would end up with almost nobody helping us out to do the necessary work of keeping the wiki in order otherwise. Being annoyed at times is obviously not remotely enough, and again, Matthew has been comparatively well-behaved in these threads as far as I have noticed.

 

[Elizio33]

I'm fine with Those Who Sit Above In Shadow existing in the outside. While it is possible they simply escaped the destruction of the multiverse by the Beyonders during Loki's story, such statement of them escaping the destruction of the multiverse or anything was not mentioned during this storyline. TWSAIS can reside in the outside it wasn't for nothing if Loki thought that TWSAIS can be Beyonders taken form. Because like them, they are outside all realms. I can be wrong but it is my opinion.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Existing in the Outside has nothing to do with being 1-A in power, however. I can't believe we have to go through this discussion so many times over.

 

[Aridwolverine]

If being in the Outside is such a big deal, can't we just explain why it is or isn't a 1-A feat?

 

[Antvasima]

We have. Several low-powered characters have survived there, and it is against our fundamental standards to automatically scale characters to the degree of their environment.

 

[Luck100]

Several low-powered characters that were saved by somebody else:


Glorian used shaper of worlds power to save silver surfer from the collapse of the multiverse.

Loki saved all stories. Why he shouldn't be able to save himself and one other being ?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Shaper of Worlds isn't 1-A. The Power Cosmic of the Silver Surfer in itself was sufficient to protect his human girlfriend from surviving there.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Not like the whole Silver Surfer/Glorian/Outside stuff matters, anyway.

 

[Aridwolverine]

By saving do you mean teleporting them to safety? If so then teleportation to a 1-A plane would be less of an AP feat and more of a range feat.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Finally. Let's break down Paradox's wall of text masquerading as an argument. Since this time he provided us with an overabundance of scans instead of none, I think it would be the most effective if we went through each scan at a time, analyze what they say, and then see what we can conclude from there. Shall we?

As an addendum, I'm referring to "Those Who Sit Above In Shadows" as the "Shadow Sitting Gods", because I find it funny and also because it's shorter and easier for me to type than the abbreviation.

Alright:

• This is the already familiar scan of Odin meeting the Shadow Sitting Gods "outside the realms, outside all realities". This is nothing knew, and in fact I have already accepted this to be the case: Namely, that they come from a realm outside the Marvel Multiverse. This is plainly stated a few times.
• My objection comes with this suddenly being evidence of the Shadow Sitting Gods being Outerversal... Which, quite honestly, isn't. Saying that they come from such a realm doesn't make them 1-A, even if the realm in itself was.
• This scan doesn't say much of anything, honestly. It's just Odin and other people talking about the end of all things and the coming of the Last Day.
• This... I'm not even sure why this scan is here? It's just Loki telling Verity that all stories have endings, in relation to the events of the storyline and the eventual collapse of the Marvel Multiverse. It tells us nothing relevant.
• The followup double-page scan is just reiterating that same idea. This is the Last Incursion of the Beyonders. The Last Day. The end of the Marvel Multiverse. The end of the story.
• This page with Loki and Verity's spirit in the Outside isn't very helpful either, actually? He's talking about how, even with the destruction of the Marvel Multiverse, the story has yet to end. He references Silver Surfer who at the time was also in the Outside with his mortal girlfriend, and also the events of Secret Wars proper in Battleworld with Doom. Overall, all this is saying is that "Yeah, the story ended, but nothing ever really ends, Adria."
• Once again, Loki is reiterating what happened and what he meant before. The Multiverse was completely wiped out by the Beyonders and the events of Secret Wars, but you can't wipe out stories. They survive, persist, change and evolve. This is all very plainly Meta, in how the stories of Marvel never truly end no matter the in-universe cataclysms that happen in them.
• I'm... Not sure what this thread is accomplishing, either? Hela is saying that the warriors who die as the universe ends will either be sent to Valhalla, or to her own realm, but only briefly as all realms will be destroyed. Which Old Loki reiterates. But this is not particularly meaningful. People go to Valhalla, Helheim and other afterlives in Marvel all the time. I'm confused as to why that's here.
• Another scan that has appeared before already. Yes, the Issue Recap that states that the Marvel Multiverse is ending. We've been through this already. It's not a feat for anything other than those responsible for its destruction. And let me cut some times, because this other Issue Recap that states that the multiverse was destroyed and now Loki will try to prevent the Stories of the Gods from being consumed by the Shadow Sitting Gods isn't much of anything, either. I have yet to understand why eating "a story" is significant, overall, when it's evident from the scans presented that Stories are treated as metaphorical, intangible ideas, and not literal power sources that can be quantified into Tiers.
• Likewise, these scans about the Norse Gods fighting the Last Battle isn't much strong evidence of anything, either. Whatsoever. I suppose you're attempting to say that the events of Time Runs Out / Secret Wars were literally Ragnarok to them, but that's clearly not what's happening. The gods here are battling for completely different reasons than they did in Ragnarok proper, and they do admit that the scale of the Last Day is far beyond anything they can do. It would certainly be very weird if the literal Ragnarok, an event centered around the Earth-616 versions of the Norse Gods, had repercussions throughout all levels and realms of the Marvel Multiverse, right? Thankfully, from the actual Ragnarok Storylines we know that's far from the case.
• Speaking of Metaphors... What a funny coincidence, the story itself shows that when Stories die, they are sent to a "Metaphorical Space". The Void which stories go to when they die isn't a literal physical dimensionless void, but a metaphorical one. Note the usage of the term "Ego Death" in the scan there, which refers to a concept of Jungian Psychology meaning the "complete loss of subjective self-identity". Basically, your story is who you are on a subjective, perceptive level. It is your sense of self and conscience. Not anything that can be quantified.
• And this finally brings up to Loki's meeting with the Shadow Sitting Gods. Namely, that they confirm that all of existence is destroyed, and that now nothing remains but the stories. The stories which they'll feed on, which are namely the stories of the Norse Gods. They are not seeking to feed on the story of everything that ever happened in the War of Last Day / the events of Secret Wars, but merely the Norse Gods' part in that event. They are not consuming the literal, physical multiverse, nor even the story of the whole multiverse's ending. But the story of the gods. That's it.
• Amusingly, when Loki narrates the stories of the Gods to dispute Those Who Sit In Shadows, his narrative is not only uncertain ("Maybe that's just nonsense), but also quite limited. He references the Ten Realms birthing from Ginnungagap, with these Ten Realms being the Ten Spheres held by the World Tree Yggdrasil. It's amazing that in this very story Yggdrasil is being treated as limited to the 10 realms alone.
• Also, the Gods being born out of the stories mortal spin from them is all fine and dandy, except for when it is an idea that's blatantly contradicted by other writers and their own interpretations. Certainly, it is what Al Ewing is going for, but not everyone accepts it.
• And this scene also perfectly illustrates the metaphorical power of stories. Much like mortals spin the tales of the Gods, the Gods themselves spin the tales of the Gods of Gods. And since Loki is now the God of Stories, and the only storyteller remaining, he holds power over Those Who Sit In Shadow through the act of telling their stories. Loki's triumph over them isn't evidence that he has 1-A Power. It's a testament to his cleverness and wit, and the symbolical power stories hold over us. In fact, turning this whole story into a Power Level measuring competition is missing the needle for the haystack.
• As an addendum, the notion that it was the Norse Gods themselves who created Those Who Sit In Shadow is ironic in itself, because it perfectly undermines their own statement of being the creators of the whole Cycle. Look to the two scans above. They show confusion when Loki presents them with the truth of their existence.

Finally, let's address the handful of "Ginnungagap" Scans.

• This here establishes that Loki and Verity were "Outside" all existence when he met the Gods of Gods. Which I've never disputed. They are indeed Outside the Marvel Multiverse. But that is utterly meaningless for tiering anyone, in fact.
• This scan which tells the Norse Creation Myth is itself extremely limited, because it only talks about the emergence of the Ten Realms from the yawning void of Ginnungagap. Nothing more than Ten Realms held by one World Tree (Not a multiversal world tree, eh?).
• This scan is exactly the same thing, with the sole difference being that it references Nine Worlds instead of Te. To make a long story short, the very scans that were brought up to defend the position that Ginnungagap is a "OuTerVeRSaL vOiD" contradict said claim. Wew.

And that'll be it for tonight. A long and impressively-looking post is often seldom reliable when analyzed with the slightest scrutiny. I doubt that those who liked the post even read it in full. They just saw it be big and thought "Lol, Matt got destroyed!".

Alas, I was not. And Paradox's post proved meaningless indeed.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Not like the whole Silver Surfer/Glorian/Outside stuff matters, anyway.

It matters when one of the arguments repeated is that being from the Outside makes you 1-A, and also the claim that "Even those as powerful as Lifebringer Galactus can't survive in the Outside".

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Matthew.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Thank you for helping out Matthew.

Always welcome.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

I am, of course, already writing up a response.

 

[Elizio33]

I didn't say TWSAIS are 1-A i said that they can exist in the outside. I think 2-A or Low 1-C can be fine

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am, of course, already writing up a response.

Hopefully this time it won't have "Okay Boomers".

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I didn't say TWSAIS are 1-A i said that they can exist in the outside. I think 2-A or Low 1-C can be fine

I could actually see Low 1-C actually. But even then.

 

[Kepekley23]

There is no reason for them to be Low 1-C, unless you're willing to accept that they might be 1-A, since it's the exact same polarity; just two different ends of it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

MFW Odin specifically explains that Yggdrasil, which "encompasses all there is", and "encompasses all stories", only contains the Ten Realms in it. Downgrading all of Marvel Cosmology to 2-C when?

 

[Elizio33]

Why Low 1-C could not work? If they are above all realms, Low 1-C or 2-A can be an alternative if 1-A is really rejected.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Why Low 1-C could not work? If they are above all realms, Low 1-C or 2-A can be an alternative if 1-A is really rejected.

Low 1-C is nonsensical as a possible rating, due to the fact it requires you to:

• (1) Assume the multiverse is 2-A. It isn't.

• (2) Arbitrarily treat being "outside the multiverse" as a feat in one instance, but not the other (not that them being "outside the multiverse" is the actual point, as you'll see from my rebuttal)

 

[Alonik]

• The tree that is everything. That has its roots and branches in all that is. There are ten realm in this reality.

This is the worst possible interpretation to conclude Low 1-C, since Odin said that IN HIS REALITY there are 10 realms, not in the WHOLE yggdrasil. These 10 realities is only the 10 local realms of 616. I don't know if you've noticed, but there's a score there to separate one utterance from the other.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

*The tree that is everything. That has its roots and branches in all that is. There are ten realm in this reality.
This is the worst possible interpretation to conclude Low 1-C, since Odin said that IN HIS REALITY there are 10 kingdoms, not throughout the yggdrasil. These 10 realities is only the 10 local realms of 616. I don't know if you've noticed, but there's a score there to separate one utterance from the other.

No, the very scan clearly states that Yggdrasil contains the Ten Realms. "Everything" in this context is the 10 realms.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Odin makes that statement from the point of view of the story he is most familiar with, the Norse one. That does not mean the story of Yggdrasil is limited to the Norse Realms, because in this very same storyline, Fem!Loki states that the omniversal Incursions would lead to the end of the World Tree and all its stories, and the background picture shows the Avengers fighting, plainly implying that the Yggdrasil encompasses their stories, too.

• • Goddess Loki is partially lying, of course, before anyone brings it up. She states it's the "final" death of all stories, and this is what she is lying about, as she explains moments later, because it is in fact only a temporary death of all stories, since stories are self-perpetuating and recreate themselves)

Anyway, I'm expecting a pizza on my front door, so this will be my last post before my response to your arguments soon.

 

[Alonik]

Literally, nothing in this conjugation says that this reality in yggdrasil is unique. Besides that Yggdrasil containing 10 realms is an obvious conjugation, this does not limit to 10 realms.

Also this is so solid, that further forward yggdrasil is called omniverse/Multiverse that The Beyonders were attacking.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"because in this very same storyline, Fem!Loki states that the end of the omniverse means the end of the World Tree and all stories"

So.

Imagine there's a huge skyscrapper in a city. 100 stories tall or something. And then due to an event, the whole city is going to be destroyed. And someone says that the end of the city will mean the end of the building.

Does that mean that the building contains the city now?

Because that's all Loki's stating there. Of course the destruction of the Marvel Multiverse naturally means the destruction of the World Tree. Yggdrasil is in the Marvel Multiverse so it will go out too.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Literally, nothing in this conjugation says that this reality in yggdrasil is unique. Besides that Yggdrasil containing 10 realms is an obvious conjugation, this does not limit to 10 realms.
Also this is so solid, that further forward yggdrasil is called omniverse/Multiverse that The Beyonders were attacking.

Everything says, in fact. We're repeatedly stated that Yggdrasil contains the ten realms. When they say that it contains "everything!" they're being hyperbolic and not-literal.

 

[Alonik]

Except that in no conjugation says that yggdrasil is part of the multiverse, but rather that it is him.

That's the same as picking up and saying, "WOW eternity appears inside the multiverse, so that means it's not the multiverse, even though it has clear statements of it"

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Its not because in the context of Eternity appearing inside the Multiverse we are often dealing with M-Bodies.

And speaking of such, they are the perfect example of why we can't take literal claims like that as fact. Because the Dimension of Manifestations was stated to be outside all realities and beyond them, it has a white background and it's where abstract shit happen. So obviously it's the same thing as the Outside, and therefore M-Body eternity > Multi Eternity.

 

[Kepekley23]

> And speaking of such, they are the perfect example of why we can't take literal claims like that as fact. Because the Dimension of Manifestations was stated to be outside all realities and beyond them, it has a white background and it's where abstract shit happen. So obviously it's the same thing as the Outside, and therefore M-Body eternity > Multi Eternity.

This is an awful analogy, Matthew, and you know very well why. Primarily because the Dimension of Manifestation has never been stated as outside all realities, simply beyond reality proper, and assuming it has in a scan I'm not aware of, that would still require more context, and most importantly because the Loki storyline clearly described Loki and Verity in the Outside after the entire omniverse collapsed due to the Incursions. Unless you are saying the entirety of Secret Wars shouldn't be taken literally, now.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

@Paradox

• "The same storyline makes it clear that the realm in which they operate is the Outside: [Odin scan]"

That doesn't show them in the Outside though, in fact that does more for my argument than it does yours since it's plainly not depicted the same as the actual Outside (black versus white). Sure, it's a void "outside" the multiverse, but not the Outside-with-a-capital-O. I hadn't addressed this before because I didn't realize that scan was from the same storyline, but that being the case, it's actually supportive of Loki's statement that TWSAIS went back to their own realm after fleeing the Outside.

Basically, I think this storyline delineates Ginnungagap as something separate from the Outside/Oblivion while still saying that it's outside the multiverse. It is its own realm. The story contradicts the claim that Ginnungagap is simply the Norse term for looking at literal Oblivion.

Which brings me to the point about cosmic architecture. I wouldn't be opposed to this upgrade if I thought there was a sufficient case for Ginnungagap actually being 1-A (since I do not believe it is literally-the-same as Oblivion, for the above reasons). But after examining all the scans posted in the last couple threads, I think the beyond-cosmic-architecture is about as good as it gets. And that statement can easily just mean "outside the multiverse," which isn't sufficient evidence for 1-A.

 

[Kepekley23]

Actually, PrinceoftheMorning, there were several scenes where the background color shifted to black while Loki was speaking to the TWSAIS after the omniverse collapsed.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

That was after Loki shifted the scenery for his "set dressing" as he called it. The black first appeared as the background for his storytelling.