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Marvel Comics: Possible Yggdrasil Upgrade - Part 3

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I'll chill until the 4th thread gets made because this is obviously going to reach another 500 posts, seriously lol,

"Why is Gingugnanananap the outside"

"cus its described as outside all realities"

"why does that mean its the outside"

"loki met them there"

"so?"

"they live in gingunnap"

"how"

"thor saw them there"

"he doesn't say that"

"well it shows the black background which is the outside"

like seriously I don't get how this argumentation is even allowed here
 
> You are the ones wishing to push through an enormous change, not me. I am just evaluating the scans that others have shown me, and they have not provided anything resembling conclusive evidence so far.

You can claim it's not conclusive as much as you want. Either provide evidence that the scans are incorrect or back out and let other people argue for you. I am not interested in engaging in endless rhetorics with you, third time now.

> Show me the scan with this statement please.

Loki used his powers as the God of Stories to save the stories from being naturally destroyed together with the rest of the multiverse, which is why the TWSAIS appeared before him; they were angry with him for saving that story from being wiped out together with everything else, which was their desire.

> The Beyonders started destroying the multiverse long before TWSAIS showed up and the Norse gods started their final battle. What multiple sources state anything about the Norse gods fighting against their traditional enemies causing a multiversal cataclysm?

I'd appreciate it if you started to read my posts more closely before typing out responses, so as to avoid this continuous campaign of misinterpretation you've been doing. I never claimed the fight between the Norse Gods was going to lead to the multiversal destruction. I said that Ragnarok, as a story, was being treated as a multiversal crisis in this story. This is undeniable. The Story of the Last Battle and the death of the World Tree were treated as stories that reached far beyond the confines of Norse Myth, with the Avengers and multiple other heroes outside the Norse Myth being involved in the ordeal. This story is what the TWSAIS wanted to absorb, which is already evident from the fact that Odin treated the TWSAIS' appearance inside his dreams a sign of a "Multiversal Cosmic Process"

> It is your fault that you relentlessly waste my time and energy after your suggestion has been repeatedly rejected by plenty of staff members

To put it bluntly, Ant, I don't care about "wasting your time". Multiple upon multiple staff members have agreed with me, Kep, and the others. Either drop the argument, let other people argue for you, or stop responding.

> That is not remotely the same scale as wishing to feed on the story of the entire multiverse, as was claimed previously.

Hopefully you drop this point now.

> People on your side of the argument have tried to scale Ginungagap and TWSAIS to him.

Literally no one has. People are just drawing comparisons, not saying "they're 1-A because they scale to Oblivion"

> A scan would be appreciated here as well.

Posted too many times at this point.

> That was a reference about Thor's scale of cosmic awareness, not TWSAIS.

It was a reference to both. The TWSAIS' domain was in Ginnungagap, the same realm that was described in those exact terms. We've been through this.

> "Your" here means your side of the argument. Others certainly have argued for this.

Okay, but it's irrelevant to bring up when addressing me.
 
PrinceOfTheMorning said:
This topic is getting to be the Ragnarok of the wiki - pointless and cyclical.

Can someone explain something to me since most of you here are more well versed in all the Marvel Norse lore than I am? I haven't been able to keep up with every post so sorry if this is repeating stuff.

1. Ginnungagap is the Outside aka the void before creation, so it's 1-A - repeatedly asserted in the last thread, and in Paradox's comment above

2. TWSAIS are from Ginnungagap - Kep's comment above.

3. TWSAIS leave the Outside, back to wherever they came from - the Loki story being used as the linchpin of this upgrade.

Either my 80 hour work week has turned me into a brainlet, in which case I apologize in advance, or there's a contradiction here. Either Ginnungagap is a void outside the multiverse but is not the Outside, or Ginnungagap is the Outside but TWSAIS are not originally from there.
Click to expand...
The TWSAIS leaving to where they came from is direct proof that they're not from inside the multiverse. The entire omniverse had literally been destroyed moments earlier.
 
" which is already evident from the fact that Odin treated the TWSAIS' appearance inside his dreams a sign of a "Multiversal Cosmic Process""

>scan is a random angel from heven talking about how they believe the end of all things is a part of the multiversal cosmic process

>complains about people not reading scans

ya I'll just unfollow this thread in all honesty
 
"The TWSAIS leaving to where they came from is direct proof that they're not from inside the multiverse. The entire omniverse had literally been destroyed moments earlier."

And that's not a feat of power in the slightest. How many times will we have to remind you? That doesn't earn them any tier.
 
Hykuu said:
" which is already evident from the fact that Odin treated the TWSAIS' appearance inside his dreams a sign of a "Multiversal Cosmic Process""

>scan is a random angel from heven talking about how they believe the end of all things is a part of the multiversal cosmic process

>complains about people not reading scans

ya I'll just unfollow this thread in all honesty
Click to expand...
If you're going to continue to bring up random nonsense and mock people, yes, by all means leave this thread.
 
It is mock worthy. Kep. You people keep bringing ridiculous scans that do not remotely say what you insist they do.

It's no wonder Antvasima wants this thread to be closed. It's not something that's going to be approved and it's wasting everyone's time.
 
Kepekley23 said:
Y'all know what will happen if anyone closes this thread before its conclusion, lol.
Click to expand...
Enough with the slight of hand jabs here, Kep.

This is a topic that is not being approved and which will go nowhere, and one which I honestly doubt you're actually that invested in. It should be closed.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
It is mock worthy. Kep. You people keep bringing ridiculous scans that do not remotely say what you insist they do.

It's no wonder Antvasima wants this thread to be closed. It's not something that's going to be approved and it's wasting everyone's time.
Click to expand...
The only thing that's mock-worthy is the random, debunked nonsense you and Hykuu keep bringing to this thread. Learn to take salt if you dish it out. You keep mocking people, yet whenever someone responds to your nonsense in the same tone as you, you complain about the other side being aggressive. Honestly, this thread is just the pinnacle of the nonsense I'm fed up with in this wiki so far.
 
@Paradox

I wasn't saying they're from inside the multiverse. That contradiction would just mean that they're from some realm outside it, whether that realm is Ginnungagap or not. Either way, the two assertions don't gel with the fact that they left back to somewhere else from the Outside.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
It is mock worthy. Kep. You people keep bringing ridiculous scans that do not remotely say what you insist they do.
It's no wonder Antvasima wants this thread to be closed. It's not something that's going to be approved and it's wasting everyone's time.
Click to expand...
Why you avoid efutate the scans if they are so ridiculous ?
 
I'm not avoiding. In fact I address them often in my posts. I was referring with the scan with the random angel that doesn't prove what you guys say it does.
 
So, if I remember we have the majority of votes so I'm not uncomfortable here.

I just don't know why only Marvel gets so much resistence to upgrade something.
 
PrinceOfTheMorning said:
@Paradox

I wasn't saying they're from inside the multiverse. That contradiction would just mean that they're from some realm outside it, whether that realm is Ginnungagap or not. Either way, the two assertions don't gel with the fact that they left back to somewhere else from the Outside.
Click to expand...
There are no realms in all known Marvel Cosmology so far that exist outside the entirety of the Omniverse that would qualify as less than 1-A. The House of Ideas, TOBA's Abyss, etc, are all 1-A or higher voids/realms.

Also, every appearance of the TWSAIS has taken place in a blank void; and the Agent of Asgard storyline revealed that this void was the Outside. So the idea that their realm is not the Outside is not supported from either the text nor the artwork.

It's also worth noting that Those-Who-Sit-Above-in-Shadow were simply fleeing from Loki's hypothesis that they were created to fulfill the Asgardians' archetype of "Transcendental Gods", which scared them, and Loki merely speculated that they had gone back to "where they had come from".
 
You don't have any reason to be so angry over the rejection of others. People are simply not agreeing with you or your friends here. We just don't see the scans which you perceive to be irrefutable facts as true.

What rejection of others? The majority of the support is on our side, and more and more staff members are being convinced of this upgrade.
 
>Majority!

>Staff!

The only staff arguing in favor of this is Kep. Every single other person talking about this are regular members. The majority of which only showed up to throw a single meaningless "I agree FRA" post to the threads.

This is not a sign of majority strength. It's a sign that you called out people on Discord and asked them to give out their support on this thread.
 
We have the majority accompanying the threats to too.

In the preview thread paradox comment got six likes of people rading the thread.
 
@Paradox

None of that is a proper solution to the main contradiction in logic though, as I see it.

  • Those realms you listed don't mean the realm of TWSAIS also has to be 1-A. In fact they have nothing to do with the realm of TWSAIS.
  • The idea that their realm is not the Outside is directly asserted by the writing - that they left back to where they came from. This context makes it very clear that, though they may come from some realm outside the multiverse, even if their realm is Ginnungagap, that realm is not the same as the Outside.
  • If you want to dismiss said clear writing as "speculation from Loki" then it would be just as easy to turn around and dismiss practically all the evidence in this upgrade attempt, or any upgrade attempt for that matter, as "speculation from characters." The way I see it, the writer went out of his way to clearly indicate TWSAIS went back to their realm - even if he didn't show us their realm in that storyline.
 
Nearly every single staff member you're saying disagrees only came in to throw a meaningless "I disagree FRA" or ask some questions before going back to do things that were more important than a random Marvel thread to them.

And I could care less about majority support, despite the fact my side is the one with it, actually. I'm far more interested in rational debate.
 
Luck100 said:
We have the majority accompanying the threats to too.
In the preview thread paradox comment got six likes of people rading the thread.
Click to expand...
Likes don't denote the quality of a post. As I'm sure you'd know if you ever frequented Reddit.
 
@Paradox

While I vehemently disagree with you, I can respect your desire to engage in developed rational debate. Unfortunately you have yet to convince me.
 
> >scan is a random angel from heven talking about how they believe the end of all things is a part of the multiversal cosmic process

Read the context before spewing random mockery. Odin came barging in talking about how everyone in that council was useless to stop the upcoming "cosmic oblivion", to which they theorized that the upcoming event was merely a "natural multiversal cosmic process". This is still talking about the exact same subject, which was Odin's dream of the TWSAIS.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Luck100 said:
We have the majority accompanying the threats to too.
In the preview thread paradox comment got six likes of people rading the thread.
Click to expand...
Likes don't denote the quality of a post. As I'm sure you'd know if you ever frequented Reddit.
Click to expand...
But they quantify the people who followed the thread.
 
> The idea that their realm is not the Outside is directly asserted by the writing - that they left back to where they came from. This context makes it very clear that, though they may come from some realm outside the multiverse, even if their realm is Ginnungagap, that realm is not the same as the Outside.

The same storyline makes it clear that the realm in which they operate is the Outside:

They appear through Odin's dreams in the Outside.

When they call out to Thor and summon him, they're shown to be in the same, "black void" realm, which was stated as "beyond time and all cosmic structure", strongly suggesting it wasmeant to be a realm outside space-time, proper.

> If you want to dismiss said clear writing as "speculation from Loki" then it would be just as easy to turn around and dismiss practically all the evidence in this upgrade attempt, or any upgrade attempt for that matter, as "speculation from characters." The way I see it, the writer went out of his way to clearly indicate TWSAIS went back to their realm - even if he didn't show us their realm in that storyline.

If the TWSAIS merely fled to another part of the Outside, it would still fit that statement perfectly, while not contradicting the multiple times they have manifested through the void.
 
> When I answer your faulty interpretations of scans I will point out that you're reading them wrong, yes. Whether you like it or not. Wanting me to just "back off" simply for disagreeing and pointing out that you're wrong is emotional fragility. Deal with it.

As Kep mentioned, I was responding to Ant's arguments, not yours, so...ok boomer

> No, they didn't explicitly say anything, actually. Other than the Shadow Seat Gods wanting to eat the stories of the Norse Gods' final battle and final death.

The Those-Who-Sit-Above-in-Shadow's omen of the "end of the stars" and the "new Ragnarok" was interpreted by Odin as the end of the entire multiverse, which it was. Let me explain it to you word-for-word so you can hopefully at least get what is taking place:

Now, we go on. As Loki ably puts it:

Which serves both as a fourth wall joke and a legitimate warning:

The day of Last Battle is the day where everything, everyone goes to battle, just before the omniverse collapses together with the World Tree, as shown by the Avengers going forth to battle.

Verity detects that Fem!Loki is lying and questions her about it. She states that it's not exactly the end of all stories - which is also a meta reference to the comicbook story itself continuing, because stories are self-perpetuating. Everything is a story, afterall.

Hela states:

Showing that yes, the entire story is ending, the same story that includes the entire multiverse/omniverse. Ragnarok is coming, and this time it ain't just the Nine Realms:

The story of the Last Days/Battle comes, and Hela attempts to buy the entire multiverse another day by killing everyone in Midgard. Odin refutes her:

And then, mere panels later, the Last Battle happens. Everything was supposed to end, just like the TWSAIS desired...

Were it not for God of Stories Loki using his meta power over the story to save it from oblivio. For, pray tell, what happens to a story when it ends?

It ceases to exist. Back to the void. Nothingness.

The TWSAIS state:

The end of the entire multiverse has come, and the TWSAIS are the final victors of it, just as they had said they'd be; they aren't dependent on Ragnarok, because they were the ones to create the cycle to begin with. They act before the end, during the end, and after the end, and so on endlessly, because the multiverse is continuously reborn. The only reason they even appear before Loki is because he saved that story from their grasp, and they came to claim it.

And what does Loki do to dispute the existence of the Shadows

He describes how the gods came to be, from the cosmic nothingness of Ginnungagap. The stories echoed through all time and space, back to before all of creation, to form them: deities who embodied the very tales that the mortals used to ward off their fears and concerns. Stories so good that the universe itself believed them.

But, of course, talking about space and time to entities that transcend both is not very effective. So what does Loki say?

His way of disputing them is talking about stories grander than time and space. Stories that come from the mind of the gods themselves, as opposed to men. He scares the TWSAIS away by presenting them with the possibility...that, just like gods are created from men's stories, they are created from the gods' stories. What stories are those?

We know, because we see throughout the entire run what those stories are: the end of all there is. The destruction of the entire multiverse. Back to the drawing board, day zero. As Loki puts, "when everything dies"

Those are the tales he supposes the TWSAIS are shaped from. The fear and stories of Ragnarok; the tales that, as we saw throughout this entire run, involved the destruction of the entire multiverse, and the fear the Gods felt from the imminence of such an event, their utter inability to control or stop it.

Bottom line: no matter what view you choose to accept, Loki's or theirs, they are multiversal entities in this story, and feed off the multiversal story. Everything available about them points to such.

> Ragnarok as presented in the Rune King Thor was objectively a local event. Such a thing is an unarguable fact as much as you wish to ignore the story proper to scaling from events 15 years down into the future.

It doesn't matter whether the term "Ragnarok" at this point in time only referred to the 9 Realms and nothing else. The TWSAIS transcending all spatial and chronal structure was already hinted at in this story, and confirmed in the Agent of Asgard storyline. There are no contradictions when it comes to their nature.

> Then stop bringing him up. You're the one who started this mess by equating shit with Oblivion with no evidence.

No, I didn't.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3850463 https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3890091

Those are the two threads about the subject that preceded this one. Never did I bring up Oblivion, other than to correct a slightly-wrong claim that PrinceoftheMorning made about Mikaboshi in a completely unrelated context. Never said anything other than that.

> Prove it. You still haven't.

"In the beginning, there was Ginnungagap, the great unending nothingness."

In the beginning, there was darkness.

> Big deal. That could be a description to give insight to a Tier 2 thing.

Given the succeeding context of Ginnungagap as a void outside the Low 1-A multiverse, it obviously doesn't. I needn't waste much more time with this point.

> No. It. Wasn't. How many times will we go through this.

I ask the same question.

I suggest you drop this.

> No it wasn't. There's nothing about spatial dimensions there. Stop putting Reed Richards to shame with your stretching

Ok boomer.

> You have many times over. One of the major arguments in the past threads, in fact, was that "People like Lifebringer Galactus can barely survive in the Outside and the Shadow Boys are native to it!!!111"

Don't lie. It's bad.

As I have proven above, you made this up to make people think I was a liar and discredit my arguments. So, indeed, I quote your final words to cement my own: don't lie, because it's bad. Though I heavily doubt you'll take that advice, anyway.
 
I don't have the time available to write long replies. I already have my 12+ hour workdays taking care of the daily maintenance of this wiki, but the tone in the "Okay boomer", "You look like a clown", "lol", etcetera, comments towards staff members is extremely disrespectful, arrogant, and completely unacceptable.

I would prefer to see what PrinceOfTheMorning, Hykuu, Matthew, Sera, and ClassicNESfan think in any case.
 
Here are the starting points of the entire relevant storylines for all to see in any case:

https://***************.to/Comic/Thor-1998/Issue-80?id=8359

https://***************.to/Comic/Loki-Agent-of-Asgard/Issue-14?id=11890

To me it still seems like the first one shows Thor gaining a high degree of cosmic awareness and transcending his father to break the cycle of life and death for the local 9 worlds, that TWSAIS feed on, and that the second shows a small local final battle for the current Norse pantheon as a consequence of the Beyonders gradually destroying the multiverse triggering a new Ragnarok, and that TWSAIS wish to feed on the saved essences of the deities in question, and that's it. As I mentioned, earlier, I would prefer to get evaluations from PrinceOfTheMorning, Hykuu, Matthew, Sera, and ClassicNESfan though.
 
This again...

Too many walls of text full of quotes and links, and I sadly don't have the time nor patience to read through it all. I especially don't have the desire to continuously write long replies over this either.

I am basically strongly against anything being 1-A at this point, from any verse (with a couple exceptions) until further notice. Why? Well that's a conversation for another time, since the reason doesn't have much to do with this thread.
 
Okay. Thank you for the reply. I posted the relevant links above if you should change your mind.
 
Antvasima said:
I don't have the time available to write long replies. I already have my 12+ hour workdays taking care of the daily maintenance of this wiki, but the tone in the "Okay boomer", "You look like a clown", "lol", etcetera, comments towards staff members is extremely disrespectful, arrogant, and completely unacceptable.

I would prefer to see what PrinceOfTheMorning, Hykuu, Matthew, Sera, and ClassicNESfan think in any case.
Click to expand...
I don't condone with nonsense from anyone, Ant. I don't care what their name color is: If they are being arrogant prats, mocking people because they disagree, and making shit up to make me look like a desperate liar, then they're going to get the same thing in return from me. Simple as that. I'm extremely disappointed that you're willing to turn a blind eye towards this just because said staff members agree with you.
 
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