Marvel Comics Herald Tiers Upgrade to 3-C

[Antvasima]

I'm simply saying that we should have a solid foundation for the upgrade, understanding all the contexts of the previous statements and feats.

Yes, agreed. There is no great hurry here.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Done. Evaluated them all. It was easy because they were basically all the same, more or less. Anyway, are you guys gonna implement Thor's current phase where he killed the most powerful version of Galactus and such feats?

 

[KLOL506]

DontTalkDT is usually focused at more advanced tasks than evaluating calculations, but maybe @M3X or @Jasonsith would be willing to help us out?

From my experience DontTalkDT and Executor have been my go-to guys for feats in the Tier 4/3 range, especially Executor.

Assaltwaffle was also our primary expert, but he's gone now.

 

[Antvasima]

Done. Evaluated them all. It was easy because they were basically all the same, more or less. Anyway, are you guys gonna implement Thor's current phase where he killed the most powerful version of Galactus and such feats?

We have already done that. The current Odinforce Thor is listed as 2-A as far as I am aware. 3-C is for his base statistics.

 

[M3X_2.0]

There was a time where I was calculating celestial body feats like the ones I have evaluated. Though, just to make sure KLOL, go there and evaluate them too.

 

[M3X_2.0]

We have already done that. The current Odinforce Thor is listed as 2-A as far as I am aware. 3-C is for his base statistics.

Cool, good to know.

 

[Kulf_Boba]

@M3X @KLOL506 Ok, thank you very much for your help with the evaluations. I have already answered the main questions.

Jane Foster shakes worlds half a universe away​

KLOL506
Hmmmmm, the calc seems to have been re-done and it seems Executor's evaluation is still pending. I'll tag him just in case.

The change has only been from magnitude 5 to 4, you can check it by looking at this table.

Thor tanks the explosion that ripped through the Black Galaxy​

M3X
The calc is correct, though you need to finish the discussion below first before applying this.

I have already responded here.

Thor creates universal storm​

M3X
"I will have to use the volume of the cone to get the radius of a sphere with the same volume to use in the formula."

What

Because the formula assumes that the destroyed object is a sphere.

Therefore, calculate the radius of a sphere with the volume of the peak of that mountain.

 

[Eficiente]

Thor Vol.1 #160 Ego creates a shockwave that destroys planetoids around him and then the Recorder mentions that a cosmic catastrophe has occurred, in the next chapter the narrator mentions that in the battle between Galactus and Ego the universe totters.

Then the Recorder mentions something about shaking the universe and Thor attacks Galactus with Mjolnir so hard that it makes him feel pain and the narrator implies that he shook the heavens.

Character saying "Now let a universe tremble!" is poetic, far more so than any of the other things shown. The thing about the heavens could target a small part of it around, not all of them (whatever they might be), or it can as well be poetic. That much cannot be used.

Yes, it would be hyperbole if he did not have feats or statements of a similar level.

Well, that's not necessarily how it works.

A bonus fact is that Silver Surfer was weakened before Dr. Doom stole his powers.

Pretty cool.

By the way the narrator also says many times "distant asgard" or that it is at an infinite, unimaginable or incalculable distance (terms he also uses for intergalactic distances), it was also said that the bifrost covers the distance between asgard and Earth. In Thor #152 it is mentioned that Asgard is one universe away from Earth.

Ok.

It is not only the fact that it has survived but the comic shows very clearly that it is not a common planetoid, first we have the fact that it was created by the celestials and that apparently it has been in existence since the Black Galaxy was created, it is the center of the galaxy and it is the only astronomical object in the Black Galaxy that is not composed of organic matter and finally and most importantly the planet comes out unscathed from the energies that were shaking/tearing the whole galaxy, no common planetoid could resist that.

Therefore it is clear that it is a special kind of planetoid created to be the ideal scenario for the birth of a new celestial.

If planets survived those shakes then so could have that one. As I see it maybe it was special to that degree, maybe it wasn't.

Everything I have mentioned is pure headcanon.
The celestials only manipulated the explosion when it finished covering the galaxy, causing it to shrink and absorb all the remaining organic matter. If they had manipulated it from the beginning they wouldn't have made it destroy all the organic matter in the galaxy to just absorb the remnants, they would have absorbed it all at once.

Also if the characters understand that the explosion doesn't affect inorganic matter and the characters as you say, it makes no sense for them to say thank goodness the High Evolutionary people managed to save their ship from being crushed in the recent conflagration.


And in #425 it is mentioned that some injured need to be attended to after the explosion.

Well, it doesn't need to be black and white, they could have manipulated energy to make the explosion, were not precise to not destroy all the organic matter/did not care to do that, in their ritual, and so that happened. For the rest, as I said they might have took some effect from the blast but not at all all of it.

In the situation in which this statement is presented, she does not have the opportunity to escape and progressively destroy the galaxy. And with the context provided by these statements:

• It endangers the entire galaxy.
• It could cause a universal armageddon according to Silver Surfer.
• It is said to be the most powerful cosmic weapon in the universe.
• Firelord claims that Star Brand can melt the stars along with everything else in the heavens.
• Silver Surfer also said that it would be the doom of the universe if left unchecked.
• The Avengers believe she may be the most destructive force in the galaxy.

It is clear that she is capable of destroying the entire galaxy or much of it at that very moment.

She could if she kills the person in front of her. Criminals like this can lack the vision to be more reasonable than this.

All those scans are cool and all but do not necessarily add up to the other feat, not in a way that makes it in one go. As a nitpick she says burn, not annihilate. I can see all planets on fire and everyone killed via this w/o this being 4-A.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out with evaluations Eficiente.

 

[Eseseso]

1. I am now far more in favor of 3-C than 4-A due to the former having so much more support

2. Just wanna remind whoever will be in charge of instituting these massive changes that Doom's Doombots, Technology, and Preparation will all be among the many things upgraded from 4-B to 3-C

 

[ObberGobb]

What will happen to Ultron's "4-A with prep" thing? Will it be removed completely, or will it just be added to the justification for 3-C?

 

[Kulf_Boba]

Well, that's not necessarily how it works.

It is that the claim ceases to be Hyperbole when it has other similar claims or feats to back it up, such as Thor's claims where it is mentioned that he made the stars tremble, which have other similar claims and adequate support.
Although if it turns out that the Marvel Universe is infinite then this could be Hyperbole.

If planets survived those shakes then so could have that one. As I see it maybe it was special to that degree, maybe it wasn't.

The other planets were not at the epicenter like this planetoid.

Well, it doesn't need to be black and white, they could have manipulated energy to make the explosion, were not precise to not destroy all the organic matter/did not care to do that, in their ritual, and so that happened. For the rest, as I said they might have took some effect from the blast but not at all all of it.

The explosion was created by Stellaris, for something before impacting with the Celestial it is mentioned that he created a titanic explosion, the idea the Celestials was to attract all the organic matter of the galaxy through a vortex, which is shown in the comic, when the Stellaris explosion destroyed all the matter they changed their plans and that's why they decided to absorb the remains by manipulating the explosion.

If we nitpick we will also heed the claim that she can melt the stars, plus the fact that she only burns a few planets casually doesn't match her true power.

And if we get picky we'll pay attention to the mention that it can melt stars, plus the fact that it has casually burned some planets doesn't correlate with its true power.
And it is also mentioned that it is one of the most powerful weapons in the universe and that it is the most powerful force in the Milky Way so the Star Brand scales above Mjolnir. (Recall that this comic was also written by Jason Aaron).

But who really scales the Star brand?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Yeah, I was explicitly stating this for his claws and no one else. Maybe anyone else of his kin that has adamantium claws as well.


I mean, doesn't the whole "holdbacc" thing already prevent the peeps from scaling to the 4-A/3-C bullshittery outright?

Also we need to find better feats for the "holdbacc" part. High 6-C just looks plain bad.

agree just try to scale them of their own feats instead of scaling them

 

[Veronica]

Also Beta Ray Bill fought against Surtur who had no sword so that might add to it

 

[Kulf_Boba]

Also Beta Ray Bill fought against Surtur who had no sword so that might add to it

In that story, Surtur was weakened.

 

[Eseseso]

Actually, now that my love of 3-C upgrading went away, I'm going to have to say that we should do 4-A (and maybe "possibly 3-C") instead of 3-C.

None of the actual calcs are 3-C, and the statements of 3-C without calcs aren't enough on their own from what it appears.

I mean, we can make them "Multi-Solar System Level+" and/or give the 3-C to those with multipliers (like the 10x multiplier for Thor's Warrior Madness), but just 3-C doesn't sit well with me with no actual 3-C calcs

 

[Kulf_Boba]

Actually, now that my love of 3-C upgrading went away, I'm going to have to say that we should do 4-A (and maybe "possibly 3-C") instead of 3-C.

None of the actual calcs are 3-C, and the statements of 3-C without calcs aren't enough on their own from what it appears.

I mean, we can make them "Multi-Solar System Level+" and/or give the 3-C to those with multipliers (like the 10x multiplier for Thor's Warrior Madness), but just 3-C doesn't sit well with me with no actual 3-C calcs

High-end casual feat calculations 4-A. Explain why the statements and other feats would not be validated for 3-C.

Asking for 3-C calculations is already being too demanding and acting biased compared to other verses, what will be next, the 3-A calculation to confirm this level?

 

[Kulf_Boba]

Even unworthy Thor could withstand the full power of Mother Storm alongside Odin, who as a casual feat can shake planets half a universe away with her thunder.

Therefore Thor Worthy >>>>> Thor Unworthy = A large percentage of Mother Storm's power >>>> Feat of 24 ExaFoe.

By the way Mother Storm's feat may be 98 ExaFoe (107 Below 3-C), as a trillion light years seems to refer to the radius of the universe given that the character was on Earth which is the center of the universe.

 

[Eseseso]

Even unworthy Thor could withstand the full power of Mother Storm alongside Odin, who as a casual feat can shake planets half a universe away with her thunder.

Therefore Thor Worthy >>>>> Thor Unworthy = A large percentage of Mother Storm's power >>>> Feat of 24 ExaFoe.

It takes 10 Zettafoe to be Galaxy Level, I'm not sure if there's enough upscaling to prove he has a whopping 438.75x multiplier

High-end casual feat calculations 4-A. Explain why the statements and other feats would not be validated for 3-C.

Asking for 3-C calculations is already being too demanding and acting biased compared to other verses, what will be next, the 3-A calculation to confirm this level?

No given timeframe onscreen. And I'm so sorry for wanting to see actual calcs proving a solid reason for a tier change for like 50 characters before I give my approval.

 

[Kulf_Boba]

It takes 10 Zettafoe to be Galaxy Level, I'm not sure if there's enough upscaling to prove he has a whopping 438.75x multiplier

Do you understand the fact that these feats are casual?

No given timeframe onscreen. And I'm so sorry for wanting to see actual calcs proving a solid reason for a tier change for like 50 characters before I give my approval.

What a time frame if you have characters literally saying they can destroy an ENTIRE GALAXY with a thought and this being backed up by mentions of a Vigilante and the Silver Surfer and Doctor Doom.

Then you have that according to Stan Lee the power of 1000 suns is enough to destroy an ENTIRE GALAXY and Thor and Silver Surfer having mentions of having this power.

And that you have feats like Thor, Ulik and Beta Ray Bill enduring the explosion of hammers that can contain energies capable of destroying a galaxy without problems.


Hungry Galactus casually moving a galaxy, 3-C feats by the way.

And then you have characters like Thor, Silver Surfer or Hulk surviving attacks from this one.

 

[Kulf_Boba]

I have also been told about this feat:

Thor opens a small breach in Exitar's armor (Which averages 2000 feet).



Even the armor (which is NOT their actual bodies) of the weaker celestials come out unscathed from galaxy shattering explosions.


Could someone confirm if the armor thing is true? Since this also scales to Sentry.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we go with "At least 4-A, likely 3-C" instead then?

 

[KLOL506]

So should we go with "At least 4-A, likely 3-C" instead then?

I suppose you could, though I have no horse in this race anymore.

 

[The_Impress]

That's ugly and too bulky though :v

 

[Confluctor]

yeah plus some characters, like carol and blue marvel are gonna have "High 6-C, possibly 4-A, likely 3-C". Too many guess statistics.

 

[Antvasima]

That's ugly and too bulky though :v

Okay. How about 4-A or "At least 4-A" for the lower herald tiers and 3-C for the higher ones?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I have also been told about this feat:

Thor opens a small breach in Exitar's armor (Which averages 2000 feet).



Even the armor (which is NOT their actual bodies) of the weaker celestials come out unscathed from galaxy shattering explosions.

that's a massive Outlier, Arishem was literally tanking Thor's strongest attacks without paying attention to him, that he can now damage Exitar is just PIS

Could someone confirm if the armor thing is true? Since this also scales to Sentry.

idk, the celestials were dead and corrupted by Knull so is there a chance their durability changed there

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

idk, the celestials were dead and corrupted by Knull so is there a chance their durability changed there

plus celestials are a bit inconsistnet. They are not treated that powerful in modern marvel

 

[Antvasima]

Also, Thor threw the Odinsword right through a Celestial during their original storyline, and only made a very small hole in Exitar by using his god blast in combination with shatterring Mjolnir from the impact, if I remember correctly, so it likely wasn't extreme enough to be considered as an outlier.

 

[Confluctor]

that's a massive Outlier, Arishem was literally tanking Thor's strongest attacks without paying attention to him, that he can now damage Exitar is just PIS

Thor was using amps in this arc - an armour and whatnot. So doesn't scale to his base.

In addition, celestials outer shells are weaker than their inner shells.

 

[Eseseso]

Do you understand the fact that these feats are casual?

What a time frame if you have characters literally saying they can destroy an ENTIRE GALAXY with a thought and this being backed up by mentions of a Vigilante and the Silver Surfer and Doctor Doom.

Then you have that according to Stan Lee the power of 1000 suns is enough to destroy an ENTIRE GALAXY and Thor and Silver Surfer having mentions of having this power.

And that you have feats like Thor, Ulik and Beta Ray Bill enduring the explosion of hammers that can contain energies capable of destroying a galaxy without problems.

1. "Casual" doesn't mean that it makes up for a required multiplier of hundreds of times

2. Which character said they could destroy a galaxy "with a thought" again?

3. That hammer explosion stuff does seem legit

Hungry Galactus casually moving a galaxy, 3-C feats by the way.

And then you have characters like Thor, Silver Surfer or Hulk surviving attacks from this one.

See, that moving a Galaxy thing is DEFINITELY a solid 3-C feat.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think "At least 4-A, likely 3-C" is just fine actually, even if some characters get three tiers or more in a key that's perfectly fine IMO

 

[Kulf_Boba]

2. Which character said they could destroy a galaxy "with a thought" again?

Uni-Lord and the Sphinx. Also Vartu the Watcher mentions that in Uni-Lord's battle against Silver Surfer they destroyed galaxies.

3. That hammer explosion stuff does seem legit

Yes.

 

[Eseseso]

Uni-Lord and the Sphinx. Also Vartu the Watcher mentions that in Uni-Lord's battle against Silver Surfer they destroyed galaxies.

I see. That is also solid stuff.

If the rest of the thread supports it, then I withdraw my previous argument and am now once again in favor of 3-C Heralds.

 

[Confluctor]

I don't think the uni lord feat is usable. Its an alt reality version of them.

 

[The_Impress]

Okay. How about 4-A or "At least 4-A" for the lower herald tiers and 3-C for the higher ones?

What's the basis for split?

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think the uni lord feat is usable. Its an alt reality version of them.

Please elaborate.

What's the basis for split?

They do not all seem to be nearly as powerful as the Silver Surfer.

 

[Confluctor]

Please elaborate

Its not even an alt reality, it's just a what if he shows to Surfer

 

[The_Impress]

They do not all seem to be nearly as powerful as the Silver Surfer.

I mean then we'll not scale them altogether, and they'll have to use their own feats if the assertion is that :V

 

[Kulf_Boba]

I don't think the uni lord feat is usable. Its an alt reality version of them.

Why? I explained above that the Watcher meant something else with "What if?".

It doesn't seem right to me to claim that it never happened when, literally, those events connect to the same canonical series.
Which also wouldn't matter even if it was a What If, because What Ifs are plausible events that could have happened, ergo it falls within the characters' possibilities.