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Marvel Comics: 1-A upgrades

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NHTkenshin2

NHTkenshin2

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Pretty sure this is already accepted, just not added yet. Arguments here mostly inspired by @Alonik

  • En Dwi Gast, also known as the Grandmaster, trapped the previous Grandmaster (Challenger) on the Far Shore of the Seventh Cosmos during the time when the inner parts of the cosmos were changing into the Eighth. | Avengers #679
    • It has been confirmed on Twitter by Ewing that Far Shore existed in the cosmos before the Eighth.
      • Which, as of Al Ewing privating his account, has been lost to time, so, anyone that happens to have a scan of this twitter post, please post it here.
  • The consciousness of the First Firmament was sent to the Far Shore after it was divided by the Celestials into the Second Cosmos. | The Marvel Book: Expand Your Knowledge Of A Vast Comics Universe
The Eighth cosmos has been accepted as 1-A as per its justifications on the Far Shore existing inside of it:
We accept that Eternity embodies all of this for being the literal Multiverse itself:

What does this imply?​

The reason why the Eighth Eternity is classified as 1-A and not the Seventh Eternity is due to the existence of The Far Shore, which is considered to be a structure unique to the Eighth Omniverse. Although it is recognized as only existing within the Eighth Omniverse, there is some evidence to suggest that it also exists within the Seventh Multiverse.

If this is true, it would mean that the Seventh Eternity (Pre 2015 Secret Wars Multiverse) would be upgraded to 1-A. Which would mean our Low 1-A characters would also receive an upgrade.

  • Jean Grey (Marvel Comics)
  • Oblivion (Marvel Comics)
  • Galactus (Marvel Comics)
  • Thanos (Marvel Comics)
  • Beyonder (Pre-Retcon)
  • Chaos King (Marvel Comics)
  • Death (Marvel Comics)
  • Doctor Doom
  • Dormammu (Classic)
  • Eternity
  • Hercules (Marvel Comics)
  • Infinity (Marvel Comics)
  • Molecule Man
  • Phoenix Force
  • The Beyonders
  • The In-Betweener
  • The Living Tribunal
  • The Never Queen
  • The Protege
  • The Ultimate Nullifier
  • Umar
  • Mister Fantastic
  • Nyx (Marvel Comics)
  • Those Who Sit Above In Shadow
  • Thor (Marvel Comics)

Note: this is not a cosmolgy scaling discussion, it is simply an acknowledgement over the justifications for 1-A Eighth Eternity being applicable to Seventh Eternity.

Marvel Comics should become 6-7 layers into 1-A as per this upgrade (Era split incoming)
 
So 1-A justification for Eighth Cosmos because of Far shore?

  • When traversing the Outside, Lifebringer Galactus examines the Omniverse and Eternity is called the entire Omniverse, which would include the Far Shore | The Ultimates Vol. 1 #5
Click to expand...
Al Ewing used Multiverse and Omniverse terms interchangeably in his stories. There are realities outside of Eternity and Neutral Zone alonely contains it.
 
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LuciferX said:
Al Ewing used Multiverse and Omniverse terms interchangeably in his stories. There are realities outside of Eternity and Neutral Zone alonely contains it.
Click to expand...
The scan does not suggest that the Neutral zone is located outside of Eternity.

The Neutral zone is both positive and negative matter and serves as a gateway to the outside of the Multiverse. Some refer to it as the edge of known science, which considering the concept of science as a whole was only introduced with the Sixth Multiverse. It can be assumed that later Eternities will also encompass science as a whole.

In Ultimates Vol 3 #3, it is implied twice that beyond the Neutral zone lies the Beyond. This is supported visually when Conner sims falls from Deep Space to the Superflow of the universe, then to the Neutral Zone and finally to the outside. The Neutral zone is surrounded entirely by a border which should mark the Far Shore.

Eternity embodies all of this, as seen when Galactus witnessed Eternity chained. This sight showed only Eternity and the Outside surrounding its body, which further suggests that Eternity encompasses the entire structure.
 
I don't believe that Eternity encompasses the Far Shore since when the First Firmament shattered, he fled to the farthest edge of being (Far Shore) where he watched over the many iterations of the cosmos.

The Far Shore is also where "The Others" (All past embodiments of the multiverse who died) mentioned by the Shaper of Worlds reside and were waiting for Eternity's call. When the Shaper of Worlds died, he fell into Oblivion and saw what lies beyond, in the Far Shore. Thus, the Far Shore outside of Eternity and his scale of influence.
 
Elizio33 said:
I don't believe that Eternity encompasses the Far Shore since when the First Firmament shattered, he fled to the farthest edge of being (Far Shore) where he watched over the many iterations of the cosmos.

The Far Shore is also where "The Others" (All past embodiments of the multiverse who died) mentioned by the Shaper of Worlds reside and were waiting for Eternity's call.
Click to expand...
FF being shattered reduced him, as that only his consciousness was sent to the Far Shore, where his remnants eventually became the different iterations of the Multiverse

With each Multiversal death, the next Eternity takes on the remnants of the last one and eventually becomes the next iteration of the Multiverse. We can assume each of them also have their consciousness sent into the Far Shore after their deaths too similarly to FF, this is because the Far shore is explicitly called the Multiversal afterlife, where the consciousnesses of each Multiversal iteration get sent to.

So no, this does not imply that actual Eternities can be contained by the Far Shore, it simply implies that the consciousness of each Eternity and iteration of a Multiverse get sent into the Far Shore after their death and getting reduced to almost nothing.

Elizio33 said:
When the Shaper of Worlds died, he fell into Oblivion and saw what lies beyond, in the Far Shore. Thus, the Far Shore outside of Eternity and his scale of influence.
Click to expand...
It is not. As Eternity, you are the entire Multiverse as i have clarified here

NHTkenshin2 said:
Click to expand...
This obviously means you are also the edge of your very own self.

The consciousnesses of your past iterations existing inside an afterlife does not contradict that. You are dead, the Multiverse is no longer your body.
 
Elizio33 said:
I don't believe that Eternity encompasses the Far Shore since when the First Firmament shattered, he fled to the farthest edge of being (Far Shore) where he watched over the many iterations of the cosmos.

The Far Shore is also where "The Others" (All past embodiments of the multiverse who died) mentioned by the Shaper of Worlds reside and were waiting for Eternity's call. When the Shaper of Worlds died, he fell into Oblivion and saw what lies beyond, in the Far Shore. Thus, the Far Shore outside of Eternity and his scale of influence.
Click to expand...
I personally think that this seems like the most straightforward and rational explanation here that relies the least on speculation. They were all of comparable size to the current multiversal Eternity.
 
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Just for the record, other Multiversal incarnations existing inside the Far Shore does not contradict this thread

The Far Shore is the Multiversal afterlife, where the consciousnesses of Multiversal incarnations go after their deaths, we cannot claim the consciousness of a dead, destroyed Multiversal incarnation equals the full Multiverse.

The Far Shore is a part of the Multiverse, this is made very clear several times, so it is a part of Eternity.
 
I agree with Elizio. I don't think that Eternity contained Far Shore during Ewing's work like Ultimates. It pretty explicitly stated the Far Shore was outside of Eternity. For one to watch the multiverse destroyed and recreated from the Far Shore, pretty clearly means that it's outside of Eternity imo. IIRC throughout the Ultimates, it was pretty clearly stated that the Neutral Zone was the edge of everything, and the highest realm of Eternity, not the Far Shore. Don't necessarily agree with the tiering either, but I'm not really going to comment on that.
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
FF being shattered reduced him, as that only his consciousness was sent to the Far Shore, where his remnants eventually became the different iterations of the Multiverse

With each Multiversal death, the next Eternity takes on the remnants of the last one and eventually becomes the next iteration of the Multiverse. We can assume each of them also have their consciousness sent into the Far Shore after their deaths too similarly to FF, this is because the Far shore is explicitly called the Multiversal afterlife, where the consciousnesses of each Multiversal iteration get sent to.

So no, this does not imply that actual Eternities can be contained by the Far Shore, it simply implies that the consciousness of each Eternity and iteration of a Multiverse get sent into the Far Shore after their death and getting reduced to almost nothing.


It is not. As Eternity, you are the entire Multiverse as i have clarified here


This obviously means you are also the edge of your very own self.

The consciousnesses of your past iterations existing inside an afterlife does not contradict that. You are dead, the Multiverse is no longer your body.
Click to expand...
You agree with me that Eternity's true multiversal form can only be perceived from outside creation, in the Void, right? Now, as the First Firmament was about to kill Eternity for good after the failure of his plan, Eternity called The Others who emerged from the Far Shore through a light manifesting just behind the First Firmament and Eternity in the Void. Here are Eternity and the Shaper of Worlds own words:

"I can feel you... Out there... You've been always out there... To... To me... I saw them. I saw The Others. On the Far Shore -- where nothing dies -- they waited for the call. And now... Now the call goes forth! To me -- -- my Ultimate! And from across the gulf of death... The multiverses assemble."

Eternity, whose true form exists in the Void, said he felt their presence out there and if we combine that with the Shaper's statement that when he died he fell into Oblivion and saw what is beyond, in the Far Shore, it is more than obvious that the Far Shore is not part of Eternity and is outside his influence.
 
Elizio33 said:
You agree with me that Eternity's true multiversal form can only be perceived from outside creation, in the Void, right? Now, as the First Firmament was about to kill Eternity for good after the failure of his plan, Eternity called The Others who emerged from the Far Shore through a light manifesting just behind the First Firmament and Eternity in the Void. Here are Eternity and the Shaper of Worlds own words:

"I can feel you... Out there... You've been always out there... To... To me... I saw them. I saw The Others. On the Far Shore -- where nothing dies -- they waited for the call. And now... Now the call goes forth! To me -- -- my Ultimate! And from across the gulf of death... The multiverses assemble."

Eternity, whose true form exists in the Void, said he felt their presence out there and if we combine that with the Shaper's statement that when he died he fell into Oblivion and saw what is beyond, in the Far Shore, it is more than obvious that the Far Shore is not part of Eternity and is outside his influence.
Click to expand...
The statement is a reference to something along the lines of how the beach is where both land and the sea meet yet it is part of the land.

The Far Shore is where the edge of the Multiverse is at. Which is the furthest point of life and death. Eternity is the representation of the Multiverse but some parts like the Far Shore are not in it. That's why his Multiversal body technically can be in the Multiverse as well as opposed to being the very directness of the Multiverse itself.

Eternity is the Multiverse and this creates more issues since the Far Shore is beyond Eternity but inside the Multiverse. So there seems to be a difference in wording between Eternity and the Multiverse.

Simply put Eternity does not contain the Far Shore. However, Al Ewing's wording is a bit weird which people need more clarification on. It could be part of Eternity but who knows?
 
Ewing's The Ultimates series mentioned that Eternity is comprised of the Deep Space, the vast expense of the material cosmos. Superflow, the space between universes and highest plane of existence which contains the true forms of all concepts and where idea and imagination merge into one. Neutral Zone, the space that surrounds all that exists, beyond and outside the Superflow. It is where matter and antimatter coexist. Realms like the Far Shore have been portrayed as not being part of the personification of the multiverse (Eternity).
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
The statement is a reference to something along the lines of how the beach is where both land and the sea meet yet it is part of the land.

The Far Shore is where the edge of the Multiverse is at. Which is the furthest point of life and death. Eternity is the representation of the Multiverse but some parts like the Far Shore are not in it. That's why his Multiversal body technically can be in the Multiverse as well as opposed to being the very directness of the Multiverse itself.

Eternity is the Multiverse and this creates more issues since the Far Shore is beyond Eternity but inside the Multiverse. So there seems to be a difference in wording between Eternity and the Multiverse.

Simply put Eternity does not contain the Far Shore. However, Al Ewing's wording is a bit weird which people need more clarification on. It could be part of Eternity but who knows?
Click to expand...
So, you suggest that the Far Shore is at the very edge of the multiverse, but is not a part of the the personification of the multiverse ? It doesn't make really sense because the Shaper of Worlds saw the Far Shore when he fell into Oblivion. So, unless you are saying that Eternity encompasses Oblivion as well, I don't think the Far Shore is a part of Eternity.
 
Elizio33 said:
Ewing's The Ultimates series mentioned that Eternity is comprised of the Deep Space, the vast expense of the material cosmos. Superflow, the space between universes and highest plane of existence which contains the true forms of all concepts and where idea and imagination merge into one. Neutral Zone, the space that surrounds all that exists, beyond and outside the Superflow. It is where matter and antimatter coexist. Realms like the Far Shore have been portrayed as not being part of the personification of the multiverse (Eternity).
Click to expand...
“Personification” of that Cosmos. From what we know it may have to do with the 8th Cosmos being imbued with his previous self since he was chained during the transition. Since it always referred to only the 8th Cosmos with the Al Ewing's statement.

However, like I said it could be that Multiverse he used is referring to something else other than Eternity being the Multiverse.
 
Elizio33 said:
So, you suggest that the Far Shore is at the very edge of the multiverse, but is not a part of the the personification of the multiverse ? It doesn't make really sense because the Shaper of Worlds saw the Far Shore when he fell into Oblivion. So, unless you are saying that Eternity encompasses Oblivion as well, I don't think the Far Shore is a part of Eternity.
Click to expand...
Either it was a retcon or Multiverse refers to the entirety of Eternity because Multiverse as mentioned is synonymous with each other.
 
I still think that we should apply Elizio33's conclusions here.

Which staff members have thought what here so far?
 
Antvasima said:
I still think that we should apply Elizio33's conclusions here.

Which staff members have thought what here so far?
Click to expand...
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
DDM stayed neutral

You and I agreed with Elizio's thoughts.
Click to expand...
Okay. Thank you for the information.

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeTwo @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Vasco @Eseseso @Marvel_Champion_07 @LuciferX @Excel616 @Immortalgodd @DarkDragonMedeus @Sandman31 @Maverick_Zero_X @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb @Gasper @Emirp sumitpo

Are any of you willing to help evaluate this please?
 
Thank you for the replies. Is it fine if we apply his conclusions then?

@Elizio33

Which pages would you need to revise based on this thread, and in what manners?
 
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