Mario Verse-Wide Scaling Issues

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

While scrolling the Mario pages (particularly Mario & Luigi ones) I noticed that Dark Bowser had a 4A key, with the main reasoning being scaling off of Mario, Luigi, and Bowser. This was odd, since I recalled their 4A keys being removed due to a translation error, and sure enough when going to Mario, Luigi, & Bowser's pages, you can see that the 4A keys had been removed due to a previous CRT that showed that the reasoning for 4A was bunk due to the context not existing in the original Japanese script for SM64. At first I assumed that it was just an issue with Dark Bowser/Dark Star, and he had simply been looked over, but as I began checking different pages, such as Geno's, Waluigi's, and even simple ones such as Boo's, I kept seeing the 4A key appear, and I then realized that this was damn near an issue with the entire verse. That means that dozens of characters are being scaled to a key that no longer exists and is completely invalid within the verse, so this should really be changed through either tier upgrades or downgrades. I'll try to list all the characters I found to still have this 4A rating, keep in mind that with how large scale this issue is, I probably missed a couple (or just didn't feel like naming them):

The Mushroom Kingdom cast
The entire Mario & Luigi cast (except Zeekeper)
The entire Paper Mario cast
The Legend of the Seven Stars cast
A large amount of the Koopa Troop (Broodals, Koopalings, Kamek & Kamella, King Boo & Boo, most major boss enemies etc etc)
Various others (such as Phantamanta, Mechawiggler, The Ruined Dragon, Wingo, Lucien, Wart, Diddy Kong, etc etc)

I'd propose that the characters either be scaled up to Mario's 3C ranking (which seems a little ridiculous for some characters in my personal opinion, Galaxy Level Mechawiggler and Phantamanta, really now?), or downgraded to whatever the best point for them would be (I know there are some Tier 6-7 feats in the RPGs that Mario & Luigi scale to that could be used, such as Dark Bowser's storm creation feat (which should really be on his page btw, it's a major feat performed by him lol)). I don't think there should be much, if any, issue with this change, considering the 4A key doesn't even exist anymore, and this would likely be an upgrade for many characters. Unless there's some other reason these characters are receiving a 4A key that I'm simply not aware of.

Also, a question somewhat related to these upgrades/downgrades, why are certain characters scaled to Mario's old 4A key for simply fighting with him / being able to kill him in gameplay? Just for examples, Mechawiggler and Phantamanta both gained 4A keys for simply fighting with him or having the capacity to kill Mario in gameplay, when honestly that could be said for any enemy Mario encounters, such as say, Conkdors. What makes them worthy of a tier of that magnitude when each of their greatest feats is only around building level (Phantamanta's goop submerging buildings and Mechawiggler's size allowing it to scale and I'd imagine destroy one), and Mario didn't even fight Mechawiggler directly, instead taking over tanks to use their blasts to defeat it. It just seems a little haphazard to scale these otherwise unimpressive foes to such a magnitude. They're never shown at any point to be equal to or give any trouble to Mario in the plot like other opponents such as the Shroob Princesses or to survive the fight with Mario after the fact like The Ruined Dragon or Broodals do. I think it would be worth looking at some of the more minor bosses given the 4A keys and evaluating if they really deserve the scaling.

 

[ElixirBlue]

and I then realized that this was damn near an issue with the entire verse. That means that dozens of characters are being scaled to a key that no longer exists and is completely invalid within the verse

Wait, what the? Who handled the 4-A key removal?

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Wait, what the? Who handled the 4-A key removal?

I'd have to find the CRT that the issue was covered in, it shouldn't be too hard...

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Wait, what the? Who handled the 4-A key removal?

AKM

 

[ElixirBlue]

Ah. Was there a reason to keep them? I could knock out the rest.

downgraded to whatever the best point for them would be (I know there are some Tier 6-7 feats in the RPGs that Mario & Luigi scale to that could be used, such as Dark Bowser's storm creation feat

Hm, it's likely preferred to scale to Mario's Base. As for the Storm feat, at this time, the Wiki treats such creations as Environmental Destruction and not something that would scale to their physicals. But I'm not the end all, be all, on that.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Ah. Was there a reason to keep them? I could knock out the rest.


Hm, it's likely preferred to scale to Mario's Base. As for the Storm feat, at this time, the Wiki treats such creations as Environmental Destruction and not something that would scale to their physicals. But I'm not the end all, be all, on that.

Ah okay, I was just using that feat as an example of a lower end one that could work, there are plenty of other ones as well (I didn't know about that storm creation thing though, thanks), but if it's best to scale them to 3C, then that's fine too.

I do think the two I mentioned at the end of my OP are worth reconsidering for the 3C rating though, especially since they're defeated through unconventional means and are otherwise only shown to be building level through actual feats.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Good to see the changes are already being applied though, thanks to whoever's making them.

 

[ElixirBlue]

@TyranoDoom30 Thanks for helping out. Still, don't forget linking the threads when doing stat changes.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Just saying, if we try to argue Tier 6/7 for some bosses/enemies we need like really definitive calcs, as there's tons of issues with most of the calcs and "feats" in that tier range. A lot of them are storm creations, and then a few can be seen as gag feats or are maybe not meant to be as impressive as they seem (Bye Bye Cannon "shooting around the world" but when used in enclosed spaces like buildings this wouldn't make any sense at all). For now the best tier is 3-C as that's the most blatant.

As for those bosses you mentioned, the fact they are defeated unconventionally supports their placements, as Mario needed equipment to beat them rather than just his base capabilities. And given they're of a boss status typically this denotes characters who are specifically able to challenge Mario in some form.

However, something like the Mechawiggler and other bosses in Odyssey being scaled to those levels would mean fodder scales to those tiers, because Mario isn't just using any regular power-ups he's using fodder enemies part of Bowser's army for most of them. And trying to argue anything else like, "well Mario needed them" would be a big headache for what that means for the scaling and trying to say "well those bosses are just building level" would also be a headache for the tier cause then it's like "well then how come Mario couldn't just one-shot them himself in base?" And as far as I know nothing shows Mario makes the enemies stronger than they normally are when possessing them. But I guess for the tiers to work we can assume that? But then the lesser fodder feats would then be done under Mario's power and therefore we'd have to evaluate fodder again. Ugh. Unless we just scale everyone to Monty Mole's one feat but that seems a bit dubious.

So basically Odyssey really ***** with the scaling.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

As for those bosses you mentioned, the fact they are defeated unconventionally supports their placements, as Mario needed equipment to beat them rather than just his base capabilities. And given they're of a boss status typically this denotes characters who are specifically able to challenge Mario in some form.

I'd say in terms of unconventional defeat, it's worth looking at in a case by-case basis, as in the case of something like Phantamanta, that was an incorporeal entity that Mario couldn't directly just slap in base form, literally just a projection of light, and considering it's easiest to deal with water as he does any other goop based entity in the game, he has to spray it with water. I wouldn't say this denotes it being able to specifically challenge Mario in the same way as say, a Koopaling and such.

So basically Odyssey really ***** with the scaling.

It really does seem to, but I think it's worth looking into sometime down the line, could help place some things a bit better and make the verse less.... flat numbers. Something about being 3C nearly across the board doesn't quite feel right.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Mario does have NPI but I see what you mean. Basically we have like nothing to denote it's stats beyond questionable gameplay, and it's durability especially is very likely not 3-C. I also don't get why the Sand Bird scales? It's more like sentient terrain that doesn't attack or get attacked by anything at all.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Mario does have NPI but I see what you mean. Basically we have like nothing to denote it's stats beyond questionable gameplay, and it's durability especially is very likely not 3-C. I also don't get why the Sand Bird scales? It's more like sentient terrain that doesn't attack or get attacked by anything at all.

If I could imagine it must scale off of some off statement about being strong or something, I see no reason for it to scale when Mario simply... stands on its back, and it performs literally no feats.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Sand Bird honestly shouldn't even have a profile tbh

Like at best it broke out of a metal containment but that's it. It has like barely any abilities beyond flight and inorganic physiology and self-sustenance iirc it's really a whole lot of nothing.

If we do have it at a tier at least 9-B, possibly higher would probably be the best rating for it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Ryukama wanted the profile for the Sand bird; though he retired but occasionally comes back for personal stuff.

@Ryukama you might want to protect your precious birdy