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There is a guy name CornerCornDog and he is like well known for being extremely knowledgeable on Mario. He made two different posts justifying why Mario characters are universal
Universal feats for Mario:
Multiversal+ Mario:
Now Mario is 6-C on this site, so I wanted to shed some light on these, are any of these actually valid?
Universal feats for Mario:
With that out of the way, let’s get into this.
Now some of these are definitely more valid than others, but most of these are very clear and concrete universe-level feats, and the remaining dubious ones are there to further back up universe-level. I know some people aren’t going to agree with everything I said here, and that’s fine, but you cannot deny that most of these are clear-cut universe-level feats. I am convinced that if these feats were in another series, then these people would have no problem buying these as universal. I personally don’t see any reason not to believe in universal Mario characters.
- Rosalina survives the universal destruction and reset. And yes, the entire universe was definitely affected. The black hole encompasses everything, as nothing can be seen in the background, and characters and planets from other galaxies appear after the reset, implying it affected everywhere that had a Luma or Power Star, which would include the Trial Galaxies that are at the edge of the universe. Rosalina talks about the universe cycle of death and rebirth during the reset, and we see Lumas come from all over to sacrifice themselves to start the reset. The guidebook also says that the blast threatens the fabric of the universe. (Super Mario Galaxy)
- Rosalina is also stated to watch over and protect the cosmos. On its own obviously not universal, but is good supporting evidence for her surviving the reset. (Super Mario Galaxy)
- I have seen people say that Rosalina shielded herself from the blast, but there is no indication that she does this. The only indication that she uses her shields comes from the guidebook (which, btw, the people arguing this also have argued that the guidebooks shouldn’t be used), and it only states she shields Mario and Peach, not herself. When she uses her shields you can see them, there is a visual indication that she has her shields out. That is not present in the final cutscene. She does not use her shields on herself to protect from the universe collapsing.
- Bowser’s Galaxy Reactor, which causes this universal reset, is powered by a single Grand Star. Throughout both games Mario fights several characters amped or powered by Grand Stars, such as King Kaliente, Gobblegut, and Bowser Jr.’s airship, so he would be comparable to a Grand Star. (Super Mario Galaxy)
- The Black Jewel creates an entire dimension with its magic that is directly called a parallel universe. Wario can tank its attacks and defeat it. (Wario World)
- Wario survives the collapse of the dimension unharmed, which is less damage that characters like Mario have done to him. (Wario World)
- Power Stars were able to create the levels seen in Super Mario 64. These levels are called Painting Worlds, and at many times are referred to as worlds. The guidebook uses the phrases “Our World”, “The Real World”, and “All of Reality” to refer to the same thing. It is clear that “world” should mean universe in this context, as phrases like “all of reality” only make sense if it is talking about a universe. Additionally, the word “world” usually means country or planet, but can sometimes mean universe, and typically doesn’t mean anything in between. We know the Painting Worlds are much larger than a planet, as we can see a sun in the sky, and Wiggler comments on the night sky having stars, meaning the worlds are much larger than a planet, further supporting that they are universes. (Super Mario 64)
- There are also statements of Shifting Sand Land having infinite underworlds and Tick Tock Clock is stated to have no bottom and be an endless abyss. If you use volume scaling like Death Battle does, then this would potentially be an infinite times universal feat, but in my opinion that would be ridiculous and these statements were likely hyperbolic anyway. However, it is more evidence that the Painting Worlds are much larger than just what we explore.
- This scales because many bosses throughout the series, such as King Bob-Omb, Dino Piranha, Major Burrows, and more, are amped by Power Stars in their fight with Mario. Bowser is also able to take several direct hits from Power Stars multiple times.
- Paper Mario and crew survive the destruction of the Sammer Kingdom dimension by the Incomplete Void. The Incomplete Void was stated to be able to destroy all of space and time. I have seen some people claim that Tippi teleported them out just in time, but not only is there no indication of that at all, but Tippi was very confused about what happened afterwards and doesn’t know how she got to Flipside, and she’s never teleported without knowing before. Paper Mario, Peach, and Bowser also are briefly knocked out before returning to normal, which wouldn’t happen if they avoided getting hit by the Incomplete Void. The final nail in the coffin, the guidebook outright says that the Incomplete Void will destroy the Sammer Kingdom with you still in it. (Super Paper Mario)
- Megabug is the personification of the SupaMerge, which was stated to be able to destroy the world. “World” in this context is confirmed by the creators of the game to mean universe. Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Yoshi fight MegaDragonBowser, which is the form Megabug takes after merging with Bowser. (Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle)
- The Creative Director saying that Kingdom Battle takes place in its own universe doesn’t mean the game is non-canon. He is referring to the fact that it takes place in a different universe location from the rest of the Mario series, as again we see the characters being taken to another universe at the beginning.
- While the characters do use weapons to fight in this game, they all have physical attacks that do comparable damage to their weapons. Several weapons also have splash damage that characters can survive, and the multiplayer versus mode shows them surviving direct attacks from their own weapons.
- Mario, Bowser, and Peach fight Culex, who is stated to have the power to rule over all creation, is the master of time and space, and consumes time, all of which should be around the level of universal. (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars)
- Mario and Luigi fight Chakron, who states he absorbs the waves of the universe and uses the power of the universe to “do anything”. (Mario & Luigi: Bowser’s Inside Story)
- King Boo’s crown was able to create a portal that was said to destabilize their dimension, and Luigi is able to tank magical attacks from it. (Luigi’s Mansion: Dark Moon)
- The Dark Moon, which several ghosts in Luigi’s Mansion: Dark Moon were empowered by, as well as King Boo’s crown was able to destroy, was able to distort their dimension as well. (Luigi’s Mansion: Dark Moon)
- Count Bleck was able to destroy his home universe with the Dark Prognostics, which enhances someone’s magic, and Paper Mario and crew were able to fight him later on. The Pure Hearts aren’t used to amp the characters up in this fight, as they are just used to nullify the Chaos Heart’s shield. (Super Paper Mario)
- The Tribe of Ancients created Flipside, the dimension between dimensions. Mimi was able to overpower Merlee, a descendant of the Ancients, and Paper Mario is able to fight her evenly. (Super Paper Mario)
- Antasma while in the Dream World is able to, what appears to be, turn an entire dream into a nightmare, as well as having spatial manipulation over an entire dream. Dream worlds are referred to as universes multiple times, and there are confirmed to be multiple of them in separate dimensions, suggesting that likely each dream is its own universe. (Mario & Luigi: Dream Team)
- Similarly to that last one, Bowser was stated as being capable of destroying all the dreams in Dream Depot one by one. This is confirmed by Bowser to be their plan. (Mario Party 5)
- Paper Mario is able to fight Bonetail, who is consistently stated to be stronger and tougher than the Shadow Queen. The Shadow Queen was able to create the Crystal Stars with her magic, as well as fight a Paper Mario amped by the Crystal Stars. The Crystal Stars were stated to be able to blow up the universe. While this does come from a review in an Official Nintendo Magazine, they do state that all of their information comes straight from the companies (look under Legal Gubbins), making this statement likely valid. This lines up with the game, where several times throughout the game there are references to the world being destroyed, or how the world will end (Ctrl + F for “world will end” or “destroy the world”), or about recreating the world, and when you consider that the Kanji for “world” and “universe” in Japanese is the same, 世界, then this makes sense. Finally, this is consistent with Super Paper Mario, where the guide states that “once again, the fate of the universe rests on the rounded shoulders of a mute plumber”, being a reference to the previous game in the series. This means that the Paper Mario series considers Shadow Queen a universal threat, since that’s the only thing “once again” makes logical sense to be referring to. (Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door)
Multiversal+ Mario:
So for the longest time I was willing to accept Mario and Luigi fighting Dreamy Bowser as just an outlier, but I have found several more feats that give very solid scaling to multiversal characters for Mario and others. To start, here are the Mario characters and items typically accepted to be multiverse-level.
And there’s some characters from Super Paper Mario but they’re irrelevant to the discussion here.
- Dream Stone (Formed of every happy dream and powered by every dream [I will explain dream scaling later])
- Dark Stone (Opposite counterpart to the Dream Stone, formed of every nightmare)
- Zeekeeper (Shattered the barrier powered by the Dream Stone)
- Dreamy Bowser (Powered by the Dream Stone)
Anyway, there are many times throughout Dream Team where characters would perform an action that would allow them to scale to one of the four characters up there.
That is eight different times characters can scale to already established multiversal characters. I feel that is way too much for it to just be called an outlier anymore, and I think multi+ Mario has really solid evidence with this. I will also be answering questions that I definitely expect to get.
- Mario and Luigi fight Dreamy Bowser, able to harm him and tank his attacks. The most famous feat here.
- Giant Dreamy Luigi fights Zeekeeper and at several points overpowers him.
- Giant Dreamy Luigi would later go on to fight Giant Bowser, Bowser’s dream self, who shouldn’t be any stronger than the real world Bowser. Characters are comparable to their dreamy counterparts, like how Mario was able to defeat his dreamy counterpart and fought Antasma all on his own, who had overpowered Dreamy Luigi.
- For scaling characters to Giant Bowser, characters are regularly able to fight him, and are able to tank attacks that hurt Giant Bowser, so they should still be comparable.
- It should be noted that Kamek was also able to create a magical blast that was going to hurt Giant Dreamy Luigi, and can survive that same attack.
- Speaking of Giant Dreamy Luigi, he earlier fought Robo-Drilldigger, who is the Dream Stone’s Spirit.
- Mario survives a direct hit from Zeekeeper.
- Mario is the reason Drill Stomp does damage, as evident by the fact that him spinning more does more damage. Drill Stomp is able to hurt Zeekeeper.
- Mario is able to break Nightmare Chunks, something Prince Dreambert is not able to do himself, and Prince Dreambert was able to fight and corner Antasma wielding the Dark Stone.
- Peach and Starlow’s magic shatter the Dream Stone into many pieces, and Bowser survives this point blank.
- Antasma was able to shatter the Dark Stone.
What if Dreamy Bowser wasn’t using the full power of the Dream Stone?
It is stated by Dreambert that Bowser absorbed all of the Dream Stone, so he would have the entire thing. Bowser’s also not an idiot when it comes to this kind of thing, he’s utilized other power sources in the past, like the Star Rod or Grand Stars, so there’s no reason to assume he wouldn’t know how to use the full power of the Dream Stone.
What if the Zeekeeper was holding back in his Dreamy Luigi fight?
Zeekeeper says that all who oppose him will fall into the light right before starting the battle, and he straight up dares them to try and stop him. After this he says he underestimated them and will now unveil his true power, and says he can give them no mercy. Dreambert says that Dreamy Luigi must match the Zeekeeper’s power, and Zeekeeper compliments Dreamy Luigi’s strength and says that he has great power. The game makes it very clear that Zeekeeper was going all out against Dreamy Luigi, so Mario and Dreamy Luigi should scale.
Don’t the Dream and Dark stones have way weaker durability than their magical power? Why would shattering them be evidence for scaling?
I used to believe this too since it explained how Peach and Antasma were able to destroy them, but there’s nothing to really imply that the stones’ durability is weaker than their power output. The Dream Stone is directly stated to be formed of all the happy dreams, while the Dark Stone is the physical manifestation of nightmares, so they should have the same durability as their power. Like I’ve shown, it’s also consistent with other feats so it isn’t an outlier anymore.
Mario doesn’t scale to Antasma, he needed help from Dreamy Luigi to take him down.
As shown earlier, Antasma is able to take Dreamy Luigi away from Mario, and Mario is able to still fight him as well as break the things that give Antasma power. Several Luiginary attacks involve Mario putting in the physical effort like Luiginary Ball and Luiginary Hammer, which are able to harm Antasma just as well. So Mario would scale to Antasma even without Dreamy Luigi.
Why would Bowser scale to an amped version of himself?
Ignoring Bowser tanking the Dream Stone shattering as well as his dream form fighting giant Dreamy Luigi already being enough justification to scale, Mario has consistently fought amped versions of Bowser just fine, with Bowser obviously still being able to keep up with Mario while in base. There’s the aforementioned Giant Bowser, but also Grand Star Bowser, Black Paint Bowser, MegaDragonBowser, Bowcien, and Shiny RoboBowser. It sounds weird, but Mario consistently scales to Bowser’s “stronger” forms. I think it’s clear one of two things is happening.
Out of these, I think the former is more likely, but both are plausible explanations for this. Either way, it is clear there is precedent for Bowser scaling to his other forms in terms of power.
- The power boost really just applies to added abilities Bowser doesn’t have otherwise, and wouldn’t increase his physical strength at all
- The amp is so close to Bowser’s original strength that it hardly matters at all, and Bowser would still be able to scale
I don’t buy it.
Cool.
How many dreams are there and how big are they?
First I’ll cover how big the Dream Worlds are. Dream Worlds are directly called as such by Dreambert, who also called their home universe The Real World, indicating that the Dream Worlds are a comparable size to the real universe. This is backed up by these Dream Worlds having many stars and constellations in them. That’s not all however, as at many times in Mario Party 5 the dreams are said to be entire universes, as the manual, Misstar, and Eldstar (translation) refer to Future Dream as a universe. Finally, Subcon, the Dream World from Super Mario Bros. 2, is also referred to as a universe. From this it seems pretty clear that each Dream World is a universe.
Each Dream World is located in a separate dimension, as Zeekeeper is said to be crossing dimensions in the boss fight, and in order for Kamek to go to a different Dream World, he must cross through the real world, meaning they must be in separate dimensions.
For the amount of Dream Worlds, BS Super Mario USA (the Japanese-exclusive sequel to the North American Super Mario Bros. 2) says that there are as many Subcons as there are people dreaming. In addition, it is said that many new dreams arrive at the Dream Depot every day, and every time someone falls asleep a new dream world is created. For the amount of beings in the Mario universes, we have several statements to go off of. First off, Mario’s universe is directly compared to the Painting Worlds in Mario 64, which includes worlds like Shifting Sand Land, which is stated to have infinite underworlds, as well as Tick Tock Clock, which is stated to have no bottom and be endless. This gives evidence for Mario’s home universe, as well as all the Painting Worlds, to be infinite in size. That’s not all though, as the alternate dimension Outer Space is said to be infinite in size several times. This alien states that space is endless and within that infinite space is filled with dreams. In addition, Tippi states that this alien drives his thoughts about in endless space, as well as saying space is infinite herself, and the worlds in Super Paper Mario are called parallel worlds, so Mario’s main universe would be comparable. So this makes sense, within an infinite space there exists infinite dreams. To back this up, paint in Paper Mario: Color Splash is shown to be sentient, as it has a mind of its own as well as being shown to sleep, so paint should be able to create its own Dream World. Paint is shown to be everything, from matter to empty space, meaning an infinite amount of space has infinite paint, which means an infinite amount of Dream Worlds.
Before you ask, yes, paint is shown to act the same exact way in alternate dimensions, so worlds like Outer Space and the Painting Worlds should also contribute to this.
We’re still not done however, as it has been shown that characters can sleep and create new Dream Worlds while in a Dream World. Because there are many creatures and characters shown to be native to the Dream Worlds, Dream Worlds are stated to be infinite in size by Eldstar, and these worlds are shown to have a day/night cycle, it is reasonable to say that the creation of just one Dream World would cause an infinitely increasing amount of Dream Worlds.
Tl;dr - There are an infinite amount of infinitely large dreams, each with infinite more dreams being created from them, and the Dream Stone would scale to that.
Who all would scale to this?
Mario, Bowser, Peach, and Antasma were the ones who scale directly to already established multiversal characters, so anyone who scales to them would scale, which is basically everyone. I can go in depth for how certain characters would scale to them if you have any questions, but most characters are shown on par with each other in every game they appear in. Donkey Kong characters like King K. Rool would also scale to this, and even basic fodder like Goombas which I explain here. Again, feel free to ask why a specific character would scale since I have reasoning for basically everyone.
Bonus: Possible Infinite speed Mario characters
So since there are several statements of the Mario universe being infinite in size, any “edge of universe” feat like this one would be infinite speed. Any “center of the universe” feat like this one or this one would also be infinite in speed, since Super Mario Galaxy portrays the center of the universe as farther away than the edge of the universe, as a Launch Star can be taken to the edge of the universe but the Comet Observatory must be taken to get to the center. This feat involves crossing seven universes at once, which would also be infinite in speed.
Backing this up further, Bowser was stated by the Star Spirits that at the rate he was going, he was going to destroy all the Dream Worlds one at a time, which I have already shown that there are an infinite amount of. This would require Bowser to not only have infinite attack speed, but as Bowser was shown destroying these by going into each of them, he would need infinite movement speed as well.
Now admittedly, I don’t think this is as definitive or legit as the multi+ stuff from earlier, but it is definitely still arguable, and that’s why I wanted to share it.
Conclusion
I was originally on the side of Dreamy Bowser just being an outlier, but there’s much more evidence now that I can’t really say it is. There’s also an argument for the characters having infinite speed, which is debatable but still has several pieces of evidence for. I understand that not a lot of people will agree with this, since it is a very big upgrade to a series that people already have very divisive opinions on scaling them, but I just wanted to share this with people because I feel it is legitimate. Thank you for reading this, and feel free to ask any questions you might have.
Now Mario is 6-C on this site, so I wanted to shed some light on these, are any of these actually valid?
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