Wart: Another Low 2-C Enemy

[DatOneWeeb]

I am back with another one, since Culex was a bust. Hopefully this one does do better.

For the plot of Super Bros 2 (Or Super Mario Bros USA in Japan), Mario and co finds a door that leads them to Subcon, a dream world. Inside it, one of the resident's state this, "We have been cursed by Wart and we are completely under his evil spell. We have been waiting for your arrival. Please defeat Wart and return Subcon to it's natural state."

What this means is Wart put a curse over Subcon with his magic, and this ended up changing its structure. He also put on the cast, inside the real world, so his curse affects both dreams and reality. Upon defeating him, it's stated Wart's defeat is what can undo the spell. Thus Wart's magic can change the entire structure of a dream world, and his death reverses it. Seems like Low 2-C. It's also implied he can take over other dream words, as stated here. Now for the scaling.

While it is true Wart affected everyone with magic, he has used magic attacks that allow it to scale. As shown in the boss fights of Fry Guy and Clawgrip his magic is shown to amplify their strength. We know this is done by Wart as these are his minions, and bubbles are his method of attacking. So the magic should be able to scale.

And just to clarify so it won't get brought up, whatever English text comes from SMB2 takes priority, as this game was made for the West only at first, later coming to Japan dubbed as "Super Mario Bros USA."

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Blaze falling to insanity documented:


Also I agree

 

[DatOneWeeb]

KH is next then.

 

[ElixirBlue]

And just to clarify so it won't get brought up, whatever English text comes from SMB2 takes priority, as this game was made for the West only at first, later coming to Japan dubbed as "Super Mario Bros USA."

It is true. SMB2 is an odd case, as it was made for the English audience first cause it was believed westerns couldn’t handle the difficulty of the Lost Levels.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I’ll read the OP later.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

This seems fine.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I disagree with this also, since all the text is describing is that Wart "used his magic to lay a curse on the land".

"used his magic to lay a curse on the land".

That's it, really. Doesn't explain what the curse is or the extent of its effect on the dream world. Likewise the fact that it is a curse implies that it is a specific spell and not something that would likewise scale to physical AP. We don't tend to scale spells like curses and hexes to attacks either.

A few questions would have to be answered:

1. What this curse really is and what it does.
2. The scale of it, i.e how much of Subcon was affect and in what way.
3. How Wart casted it. I.e, was it instantaneous like reality warping or did it require preparation? The fact that it is described as a "curse" leads me to believe it wasn't instantaneous.
4. Why this specific curse would scale to his physical bubble attacks. Even if both are done with magic, often certain magic spells in fiction produce specific results and therefore they don't scale to other spells.

Also we are literally talking about dream worlds here. You have the perogative to, once again, prove that they are universal in size and comparable to real universes in structure. Dream Worlds and spaces in it of themselves aren't considered automatically to be Low 2-C. You need to give the evidence here, mate.

In here, you'd have to prove that the Subcon is universal in size definitely.

In short, no. No one here is Low 2-C. This is actually way, way worse than Culex.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

This is a completely and utterly gay reasoning.

Laying a vague curse on a world is not even 3-A, let alone Low 2-C. You need to literally warp the entire universe of Subcon in order to achieve 3-A. Nothing implies that. And Low 2-C would require affecting all of time or the very fabric of the world, not just the world inside or the land.

Nevermind that the "land of subcon" does not have to mean the entire universe.

Also this text claiming that Subcon is the land of dreams should probably prove that this does not share the same cosmology as future Mario games and thus you need bigger proofs for anything universe sized.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Damn, if the Yume Nikki guy disagrees with your dream scaling...

 

[ElixirBlue]

You have the perogative to, once again, prove that they are universal in size and comparable to real universes in structure.

Actually, this one is very easy to answer. As this takes place in the Mario verse, all dreams are connected to the Dream Depot.

And the Dream Depot is what we use to scale Dreamy Bowser to 2-B (if I remember that correctly).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Actually, this one is very easy to answer. As this takes place in the Mario verse, all dreams are connected to the Dream Depot.

Damn bro. Backwards scaling from 2012 or so to 1988? Retroactive Cosmology is quite the controversial thing to suggest and many verses have the common courtesy to acknowledge that things can change from early installments to later games.

Specially since the Dream Depot clearly doesn't exist in the lore of Mario Bros 2, instead it's just Subcon.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Damn bro. Backwards scaling from 2012 or so to 1988?

Yes?

 

[ElixirBlue]

Specially since the Dream Depot clearly doesn't exist in the lore of Mario Bros 2, instead it's just Subcon.

Huh? That’s like saying Mario isn’t 4-A in the 1st SMB because his feats didn’t exist back then. I don’t understand the logic.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Retroactive Cosmology is quite the controversial thing to suggest and many verses have the common courtesy to acknowledge that things can change from early installments to later games.

Never heard of this and it... also doesn’t make sense. I’m confused what you are talking about. Any examples? And why just for Video Games?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Huh? That’s like saying Mario isn’t 4-A in the 1st SMB because his feats didn’t exist back then. I don’t understand the logic.

He wasn't, actually.

Setting aside the argument of Tier 4 Mario in itself, the feats didn't exist at all in the first game.

We actually do this for basically every long-running series with multiple writers / installments out there. We are always weary to apply severe lore developments from later installments backwards into the earlier installments, specially if those don't have much story to begin with.

Mario has literally dozens and dozens of games across decades. It's natural that what is established in one RPG Spin-Off from the Nintendo DS and what is established in the Manual for the English Version of Super Mario Bros 2 would differ.

To use my own favorite verse as an example, we don't apply the more complex metaphysics of later games to Elder Scrolls Arena, despite the main character of Elder Scrolls Arena explicitly qualifying to receive an upgrade to them by their nature in the lore. This is because Arena was made before literally 99% of the series' lore was even invented, so we don't think it applies within the context of the game itself.

This is despite Elder Scrolls being a story-driven game series that has loremasters whose job is to make the story consistent, and who tries to keep a cohesive world and which still has some writers from the 90s working in current games. Whereas Mario is broad and wacky and has far more installments.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

That's it, really. Doesn't explain what the curse is or the extent of its effect on the dream world. Likewise the fact that it is a curse implies that it is a specific spell and not something that would likewise scale to physical AP. We don't tend to scale spells like curses and hexes to attacks either.

I think you ignored the final quote, "return Subcon to it's natural state". I... just explained the scaling man. He uses his magic to also amplify Clawgrip and Fry Guy. It's stated Wart did it too. Those bubbles amped the bosses, the cast can take hits and defeat them. Wart also uses those bubbles.

What this curse really is and what it does.

What we know is the people from Subcon stated Wart changed its original state.
Definition of "state": the particular condition that someone or something is in at a specific time.
Synonyms: Condition, shape, form
So Wart's curse was stated to alter Subcon, along with affecting the cast in an unknown way.

The scale of it, i.e how much of Subcon was affect and in what way.

Its range should be impressive due to anytime they refer to his curse, they only refer to Subcon. It's also shown that world 7 takes place above the clouds, where Wart resides, so I definitely think he should be affecting all of it. He was also able to affect Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Toad in the real world. That's actually very impressive, as other games such as Dream Team display that the real world and dream world are separate realities that won't affect the other.

How Wart casted it. I.e, was it instantaneous like reality warping or did it require preparation? The fact that it is described as a "curse" leads me to believe it wasn't instantaneous.

It should be a very short timeframe as BS Super Mario Bros USA implies it takes him a short time. It's also revealed in the ending that after Wart is killed, the curse is removed. So if the curse is fully removed upon death, than that should give a good indication.

Why this specific curse would scale to his physical bubble attacks. Even if both are done with magic, often certain magic spells in fiction produce specific results and therefore they don't scale to other spells.

Because he amps enemies with them, plus it would be a massive assumption that the power of his magic suddenly varies from attack to attack. If both are done via magic, which he himself is the source, it does scale.

Also we are literally talking about dream worlds here. You have the perogative to, once again, prove that they are universal in size and comparable to real universes in structure. Dream Worlds and spaces in it of themselves aren't considered automatically to be Low 2-C. You need to give the evidence here, mate.

Dream worlds here have been accepted as Low 2-C, a CRT regarding their sizes would need to be made, however the previous one was denied. However, I will add that Subcon has been referred to as a world, which has meant universe in later installments of dream related Mario games. Even The Lost Level had a parallel universe that was referred to as a world. Subcon also has a starry sky at night, which means it has a day and night system as the previous world was sunny.

Laying a vague curse on a world is not even 3-A, let alone Low 2-C. You need to literally warp the entire universe of Subcon in order to achieve 3-A. Nothing implies that. And Low 2-C would require affecting all of time or the very fabric of the world, not just the world inside or the land.

As stated above, I did not simply add this for him adding a curse, but that Wart altered it and you need to return it to its natural state.

Nevermind that the "land of subcon" does not have to mean the entire universe.

Also this text claiming that Subcon is the land of dreams should probably prove that this does not share the same cosmology as future Mario games and thus you need bigger proofs for anything universe sized.

"Land of Subcon" was more of an introduction to the place rather than referring to all of it. They even later call Subcon a dream world.

And as before, we see a starry sky and above cloud levels existing. The Dream Stone is another dream related thing in Mario that we also accept as Low 2-C for each dream. Likewise, both of their dream worlds display having a starry sky. It wouldn't make sense for dream worlds in each game to be separated as more things point otherwise.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

I also wanna use this for reference, as I think these events are similar. In Yoshi's Story, baby Bowser did a curse that ended up changing the place's structure in the "blink of an eye". I know these are different games, though you have to admit that they both are pretty similar. Maybe we can use it as a minor reference? Just wanted to point this out as a, say, side-argument?

 

[Greenshifter]

I actually disagree with the OP. Your Culex case was better, there is no definitive proof the entire dream world was affected as Saikou pointed out, iffy on scaling the curse to his AP and backscaling cosmology from 2012 to 1988 (which is a huge gap in time and I assume Mario has different writers) is actually frowned upon, taking DC as an example.

Cue The World Revolving.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

All arguments presented were responded to my previous comment.

 

[Greenshifter]

Can you elaborate on the parallel universe thingy?

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Update: I've found some extra information.

"We want you and your friends to fight against the evil ruler, Wart, and bring peace back to the World of Dreams."

This implies Wart affected the entire dream world if it's stated they want help to bring back peace to the world.

Here's an additional scan of Subcon being called a world.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Can you elaborate on the parallel universe thingy?

Oh sure. In Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros. The Lost Level, after completing the main game, you unlock a bonus world. Or worlds.

Extra universes have been referred to as worlds ever since the first SMB, a dream world would also be the same case. The manual even states it's a world unlike anything Mario has seen.

 

[Greenshifter]

Hmm, that seems fair for universal size of subcon then I guess.

 

[00potato]

For once I actually fully agree with Matt on this.

Ok I can see the dream cosmology being tier 2 but the curse.... is way to vauge even for a possibly.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Would you mind elaborating on how it may be vague? We already know its range, size, and scaling.

 

[00potato]

We only see what the curse does to the civilization/ general area of Subcon. How did he alter it and how much? Was it just the land with people in it? Or was it the whole universe, again too vague to even give a possibly like with culex.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

But... I already discussed the range and what it was. It meant the whole universe since the people from Subcon stated they needed help to return peace to their world.

Did you read my past comments?

 

[DatOneWeeb]

A huge thank you to @LuckyEmile for this scan. Here, they call Subcon a universe.

It's also stated he's the source of all evil in Subcon, interesting.

 

[00potato]

Yeah, that just means that Wart is causing trouble or taking control, not that he is literally warping the while universe with his magic. Unless the people of Subcon have a universe spanning empire, then they wouldn’t likely be referring to the entire universe when they say that. World can mean different things in different circumstances.

 

[Mephistus]

The cursed keys should likely work as an indicator of him changing the nature of prior normal stuff in the verse; they are shown to flash in Mario Maker.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Yeah, that just means that Wart is causing trouble or taking control, not that he is literally warping the while universe with his magic. Unless the people of Subcon have a universe spanning empire, then they wouldn’t likely be referring to the entire universe when they say that. World can mean different things in different circumstances.

I'd only agree with this, if it weren't for the fact that a they beg to make Subcon return to its natural state. Why wouldn't it be all of it and just the empire? You go to several places that don't have any buildings? Hell it leads above the sky. They are referring to the universe, I've already sent the scan of them using the term world. World in this context is universe, as stated above where the text uses both world and universe.

 

[00potato]

Why would it be all of it? Just going a bit above the sky does not mean that the effects are universal in scope. That might suggest that Subcon is universal in scope but not that Warts magic is.
The places that don’t have buildings would still be something to deal with if Wart’s men were there or if it got them closer to Wart.
Natural State? That probably would just refer to the invasion by Wart’s created monsters, your own scans established him as creating them and that he is considered the source of all evil to the inhabitants.
I don’t see how any of this establishes that he literally warped the entire universe when the quotes only mention a vauge curse and some goons, that you actually see in the game. Those are more supported in game and are more likely what the scans are referring to since the curse is so vauge.

 

[Moritzva]

I have nothing to say that Matt and Saikou haven't said. There's absolutely not enough evidence for Tier 2 here.

 

[Jinsye]

Even if this were legit, it's not Low 2-C. At most it's 3-A, literally nothing implies space-time was affected.

Even then, this is so unbelievably vague that 3-A/Low 2-C is completely out of the question, 'natural state' means absolutely jack ****, if an enemy has invaded and took over, the 'natural state' means before they took over.

At most this would be 3-A range, but even then that's doubtful.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also I really hate how Weeb just throws out magazine scans without context and no citation or reason from where they come from.

Like he clearly is once again using Nintendo Power as a primary source and who knows what else.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Quick note since Matt mentioned we don't use retroactive cosmologies, Subcon isn't seen as an actual dream:

Subcon

Subcon is a peaceful dream world of the Subcons. Believed to be Mario's dream, it is said to be a vast dream world that is part of a larger subconsciousness of the Mushroom Kingdom's inhabitants. The name "Subcon" itself is short for "subconscious".

www.mariowiki.com

"BS Super Mario USA

Ōsama and his commander, Mario, Luigi, Peach, Toad, and a Golden Mario statue in BS Super Mario USA
Subcon is again the main setting of the pseudo-sequel of Super Mario Bros. 2 for Satellaview, BS Super Mario USA. This game appears to depict Subcon as a realm of dreams, rather than an actual dream like the ending of Super Mario Bros. 2 implies, and explains that after his defeat, Wart and the 8 bits went into hiding in another dream for a short while. However, they soon return, and the king of Subcon is forced to use Star power to call Mario and the others back to Subcon to stop Wart once again. Mario, Luigi, Toad and Princess Toadstool were able to defeat Wart and his crew once more, thus returning peace to Subcon and its inhabitants."

Don't know if it helps allow the retoactive cosmology in this case but here it is

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also absolutely NONE of the scans prove universal size anyway.

They just call Subcon a "Dream World" or "World of Dreams". Which gives out no scale whatsoever. Arguments such as a night sky or a level in the clouds don't prove universal scale either. Come on, man. And the stuff from Mario 2 JP (Again unsourced and apparently from pre-release western magazines, so completely unmaceptable) don't prove universal scale either. Just random stuff about a underworld.

This is just Gish Galloping. Plain and Simple. There is no real argument so Weeb just fries to overwhelm people with volume.

And finally, all the references to the curse only talk about Subcon being overrun with evil, with the natural state that is referred to being the Subcon devoid of Wart's rule.

Nothing remotely universal.

And finally the scaling explanation is laughable. A stronger villain empowering his minions don't make those minions universal. Come on man.

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

Possibly/Likely 3-A/Low 2-C works for me TBH

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also what even makes the Dream Worlds from Dream Team universal in the first place, since the entire argument for Subcon being universal is that a game made 25 years later on the other side of the globe by completely different people also had dream worlds?

 

[Theuser789]

A huge thank you to @LuckyEmile for this scan. Here, they call Subcon a universe.

It's also stated he's the source of all evil in Subcon, interesting.

Did you just ignore this scan?