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Mario CRT (Low 2-C Upgrade)

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Starsprite53 said:
"X didn't get that so Y shouldn't" thingy again.
And we should not forget that bowser tanked the SPM void while not being Hidden in his shell.
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I’m just saying I’m not sure on the rules on it unless I’m told by Staff since I seemed to miss the memo, specially since a retired one argued against the fraction = 2-C In this very thread

i feel that’s irrelevant, we’re not talking about the sammer kingdom feat, and the general argument of this thread is that the MSS feats match the Universal Feats in Amount, If 1 feat would have anything weird to it, I assumed it would make the argument more faulty, I just wanted to see if there was clarification that Mario would scale to the Shell
 
DragonLord said:
Hey I was just asking for an example of base Mario scaling to the shell, though I mean, that is still Giga Mario, Normal Mario can’t even touch That Version of Bowser
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My point was the bottom part of his shell, aka his stomach, can be damaged byconveniental means, and is much less durable then all of his shell. So because of that, his stomach area would need to survive, and thus need to scale to every other part of his body.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
The feat. Not the dimensional level.

People "empowered" by Grand Stars often have no feats above Tier 8 if you're being honest. Hell, Bowser himself explicitely can't touch the Grand Star Reactor without burning himself in the same game series showing that he doesn't scale to it.
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he burnt himself was disoriented at most. Mario's blows are what damage him
 
I'm not really sure why we're complicating things with the shell argument. It seemed to stem from wanting to prove Bowser had narrowly escaped great harm and so he was tucked in his shell as a defence mechanism a la the overused NSMB Koopaling tactic but ended up making it questionable how the feat should be treated due to him being more durable in said state. But... I feel there's an issue with looking at the still image scan posted. You can just about see Bowser's hair and arms, they're just being obscured a bit by the flowers in front of him. It's somewhat clearer in the video footage, and so it seems he's just lying on his stomach. His head kind of looks like it comes out of the shell as he gets up, so I'm not going to try to discredit this idea entirely, but I think it's really just the animation being a bit weird and it's just him going from looking down at to floor to looking up as he gets on his feet. Basically, I feel like bringing this idea up has only just complicated things...

Bowser's shell seems pretty durable, though. For example, in Paper Jam Bros, the Bowsers will use their shells as a means of forcing you to have to focus on the other, even being unharmed by Bros Attacks, and even when hitting it numerous times with their hammers Baby Mario, Baby Luigi and Baby Bowser don't dent the shell at all in Partners in time. Plus it's a defence mechanism in NSMBU. So... from memory, I don't think Mario has actually harmed Bowser in such a state (EDIT: You might be able to hit Bowser with those plants I forgot the name of on the second planet in the final boss whilst he's in his shell, which would be an example... but I'm looking for footage to see if that works or not). I see whilst typing this Blaze has brought up the bottom of the shell is vulnerable, but as brought up earlier, in SMG, Bowser tucking up in his shell has spikes on both the top and bottom, so he's more or less shielded his weak point too... But yeah, in pointing that out, the scan implying Bowser tucked into his shell in the final cutscene looks even less like that, so I feel like this could issue probably be avoided.
 
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DatOneWeeb said:
My point was the bottom part of his shell, aka his stomach, can be damaged byconveniental means, and is much less durable then all of his shell. So because of that, his stomach area would need to survive, and thus need to scale to every other part of his body.
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Never Said it was invulnerable, at best I used the spaceship as an example of how the blast would make Someone dazed without it factoring durability, Bowser’s Shell could just be 2-C Durability and nothing else

perhaps, but like I said that isn’t Base Mario attacking the Underside


LuckyEmile said:
I'm not really sure why we're complicating things with the shell argument. It seemed to stem from wanting to prove Bowser had narrowly escaped great harm and so he was tucked in his shell as a defence mechanism a la the overused NSMB Koopaling tactic but ended up making it questionably how the feat should be treated due to him being more durable in said state. But... I feel there's an issue with looking at the still image scan posted. You can just about see Bowser's hair and arms, they're just being obscured a bit by the flowers in front of him. It's much clearer in the video footage, and so it seems he's just lying on his stomach. His head kind of looks like it comes out of the shell as he gets up, so I'm not going to try to discredit this idea entirely, but I think it's really just the animation being a bit weird and it's just him going from looking down at to floor to looking up as he gets on his feet. Basically, I feel like bringing this idea up has only just complicated things...

Bowser's shell seems pretty durable, though. For example, in Paper Jam Bros, the Bowsers will use their shells as a means of forcing you to have to focus on the other, even being unharmed by Bros Attacks, and even when hitting it numerous times with their hammers Baby Mario, Baby Luigi and Baby Bowser don't dent the shell at all in Partners in time. Plus it's a defence mechanism in NSMBU. So... from memory, I don't think Mario has actually harmed Bowser in such a state. I see whilst typing this Blaze has brought up the bottom of the shell is vulnerable, but as brought up earlier, in SMG, Bowser tucking up in his shell has spikes on both the top and bottom, so he's more or less shielded his weak point too... But yeah, in pointing that out, the scan implying Bowser tucked into his shell in the final cutscene looks even less like that, so I feel like this could issue probably be avoided.
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Fair enough, though in my defense he could’ve gotten in the ball Form while in the explosion and be knocked out of it, which is what happened in the boss fight

but if he’s not in his shell in that scene then the him using a defensive move is out, seems to me he appeared in the Mushroom kingdom in the same body position he was in before the blast happened

you know I just realized the Universal Explosion isn’t on the OP, why was this brought up again?, this is becoming a bit hard to track with the amount of messages
 
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DragonLord said:
Bowser’s Shell could just be 2-C Durability and nothing else
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Except the bottom half would also get hit, it's an AoE blast that ecompasses the universe, remember? I don't think his belly is more durable than the rest of the body, and if you really want to be technical, then the M&L/Paper Mario series has Mario use attacks that hit Bowser on the lower side of his stomach, mainly with his hammer spins. I guess the same case can be said for Super Mario RPG.
 
LuckyEmile said:
(EDIT: You might be able to hit Bowser with those plants I forgot the name of on the second planet in the final boss whilst he's in his shell, which would be an example... but I'm looking for footage to see if that works or not).
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Just to avoid endlessly editing my comment, I did indeed find Mario can hit Rubbery Bulbs (yes, that's the name) with enough force that they hit Bowser out of his shell, implying Mario is indeed strong enough to harm Bowser in his shell (since he's the one supplying the force). This does seem to be a statistical anomaly due to the other examples I found, but since Mario and Bowser are implied to always be changing how strong they are in comparison to each other, I guess it's just in this case Mario was the stronger of the two.
 
LuckyEmile said:
Just to avoid endlessly editing my comment, I did indeed find Mario can hit Rubbery Bulbs (yes, that's the name) with enough force that they hit Bowser out of his shell, implying Mario is indeed strong enough to harm Bowser in his shell (since he's the one supplying the force). This does seem to be a statistical anomaly due to the other examples I found, but since Mario and Bowser are implied to always be changing how strong they are in comparison to each other, I guess it's just in this case Mario was the stronger of the two.
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That’s Fair, though I do wonder if it could be considered game mechanics, though I do bring the question, The Spin move that brought that force was something the Luma’s Gave him which I feel should be considered

But honestly I don’t know why where arguing this, I would like to say LuckyEmile has been very Nice with this and makes Good Arguments
 
DragonLord said:
That’s Fair, though I do wonder if it could be considered game mechanics, though I do bring the question, The Spin move that brought that force was something the Luma’s Gave him which I feel should be considered

But honestly I don’t know why where arguing this, I would like to say LuckyEmile has been very Nice with this and makes Good Arguments
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The spin move is Mario's strength alone. The Luma is just there to help him travel through space. And while you could argue that he needs the spin to break crystallized objects, these are simply nothing more than game mechanics. There's nothing in cutscenes or dialogue that supports this.
 
liluzivert said:
The spin move is Mario's strength alone. The Luma is just there to help him travel through space. And while you could argue that he needs the spin to break crystallized objects, these are simply nothing more than game mechanics. There's nothing in cutscenes or dialogue that supports this.
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“You’ll Need the Power to Travel Through Space”

Hmmm... if I had to be honest that doesn’t sound too definitive, I could say to someone who needs something to defend themselves in a Dangerous Forrest “oh well if you want to travel through that forest you’ll need this”, plus in 3D Bowser Fights (or just Bowser Fights in general) Mario never generally used his bare hands, expect like, Mario RPG I think?

but honestly I’ve forgotten why this is important, the universal destruction isn’t in the OP, so even if it was faulty it wouldn’t effect anything from what I see
 
DragonLord said:
“You’ll Need the Power to Travel Through Space”

Hmmm... if I had to be honest that doesn’t sound too definitive, I could say to someone who needs something to defend themselves in a Dangerous Forrest “oh well if you want to travel through that forest you’ll need this”, plus in 3D Bowser Fights (or just Bowser Fights in general) Mario never generally used his bare hands, expect like, Mario RPG I think?
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It's actually because you use the Spin Jump to use the Launch Star (aka the thing used to travel through space). Mario games not having the punch is kind of irrelevant, since if we wanna go by this, in SMRPG his jumps are treated as stronger than his punches.
 
DragonLord said:
plus in 3D Bowser Fights (or just Bowser Fights in general) Mario never generally used his bare hands, expect like, Mario RPG I think?
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Mario beats up Bowser physically in Superstar Saga. This further proves that Bowser not being able to be damaged in certain games is nothing more than game mechanics, as once the genre of the game changes to platforming to actual battles, there's no need for extra mechanics that help you damage Bowser.
 
I Feel that we Should get back on track here, in the OP there were 3 supposed Universal Feats, The Black Jewel, Grand Star and Sammer Kingdom, ultimately proving or disproving that Bowser tanked a universal explosion would only be important if one of the 3 Feats were dismissed, is there any questions that have been left unanswered about the 3 in question? Or can we let this debate settle and apply the changes (even if I disagree with them still, ultimately I think this shouldn’t be drawn out, changes happen all the time, and if someone finds a problem they can post about it themselves)
 
We have 38 people agreeing, two being staff. We should probably get two more staff members to put the nail in the coffin, 40 people agreeing sounds more thane enough to me.
 
Fair enough, I guess just a tiny suggestion though, I know there’s a lot of people who’d have questions about these feats and some characters like Archie Sonic have AP justification blogs, if this gets approved perhaps some of the usual counter arguments and responses could be put in a blog sometime?
 
liluzivert said:
Wait wait wait... being alive after the complete destruction of space time isn't a feat??? What, if space and time dematerialized right now we wouldn't be dead? That's like saying that some parts of the building that are less then the overall building itself, wouldn't disappear if the entire building just faded away. The stuff is a part of the building and is also lesser than it. Of course that shit is fading away.
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It depends on how it happens and what you mean by it. You can refer to time and space w/o refering to the people in it, if a realiy-warping creates a building, you are in the building, beat the reality-warping, and the building dematerializes w/o anything happening to you then the logical thing to say is that you weren't being dematerialized like the building made, that effect was only going in the thing created by the reality-warping. Let alone would your durability be Building level, as while dematerializing the whole building is at that level even if you were being dematerialized too and resisted it you would have only taken a tiny and limited part of it.
DatOneWeeb said:
We have 38 people agreeing, two being staff. We should probably get two more staff members to put the nail in the coffin, 40 people agreeing sounds more thane enough to me.
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This is far less significant than you think, common users often agree to anything that adds in stuff or upgrades things regardless of if a more organized opinion may later not do so, many times w/o learning anything from it. Not everyone has the same standards and experience, for an upgrade like this and a popular verse like Mario this should have been a staff thread.
 
DaReaperMan said:
Get off your tiny ass pony Effi, I agreed with Low 2-C Mario before and I agree with it now, just because you have "Thread Moderator" under your name does not make you holier then thou.
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Maverick_Zero_X said:

Important notes​

  • Both supporters and detractors, please approach this more civilly than the last thread. Nothing can get done if this is turned into a mud slinging contest.
Click to expand...
 
Eficiente said:
It depends on how it happens and what you mean by it. You can refer to time and space w/o refering to the people in it, if a realiy-warping creates a building, you are in the building, beat the reality-warping, and the building dematerializes w/o anything happening to you then the logical thing to say is that you weren't being dematerialized like the building made, that effect was only going in the thing created by the reality-warping. Let alone would your durability be Building level, as while dematerializing the whole building is at that level even if you were being dematerialized too and resisted it you would have only taken a tiny and limited part of it.
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Dude. Wario takes up space and time. He is a part of space and time. He is a part of what makes up the "building". You cannot refer to time and space without referring to the people because they make up time and space. It's not the equivalent of a person being in a building, and then it disappears. It's the equivalent of the material that makes up the building, and then disappears. Unless Wario is somehow implied to be able to trancend time and space by not being a part of it (which has absolutely no evidence), then yes, this is a Low 2-C feat.

And again, you need to prove that the Black Jewel isn't 4D, the statement is right there in the OP and you have still not responded to it. If Wario still beat the Black Jewel then this dematerialization talk isn't relevant and I'd wish you'd actually try to debunk this instead of going on about the universe being destroyed.
 
Eficiente said:
It depends on how it happens and what you mean by it. You can refer to time and space w/o refering to the people in it, if a realiy-warping creates a building, you are in the building, beat the reality-warping, and the building dematerializes w/o anything happening to you then the logical thing to say is that you weren't being dematerialized like the building made, that effect was only going in the thing created by the reality-warping. Let alone would your durability be Building level, as while dematerializing the whole building is at that level even if you were being dematerialized too and resisted it you would have only taken a tiny and limited part of it.
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that is a terrible comparison, space time is not like a building it is much more like a set, if the set goes its contents should go as well so when wario would still be in the "set" of space time and the space time goes he should go with it as well as he is still apart of its contents
 
Eficiente said:
This is far less significant than you think, common users often agree to anything that adds in stuff or upgrades things regardless of if a more organized opinion may later not do so, many times w/o learning anything from it. Not everyone has the same standards and experience, for an upgrade like this and a popular verse like Mario this should have been a staff thread.
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No Eficiente, being a staff member does not mean you are automatically correct and more qualified than a regular user.
 
Eficiente said:
This is far less significant than you think, common users often agree to anything that adds in stuff or upgrades things regardless of if a more organized opinion may later not do so, many times w/o learning anything from it. Not everyone has the same standards and experience, for an upgrade like this and a popular verse like Mario this should have been a staff thread.
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Okay but...
 
I agree with Low 2-C (Have for a while actually)

Also (And apologies if this specific point of view was brought up in the thread), isn't Bowser being in the epicenter of the Star collapse alone already Low 2-C? Like it's irrelevant if Rosalina eventually shielded him or not if we visibly see him get engulfed by the explosion radius for a time.
 
The_Wright_Way said:
@Eficiente That was unacceptable.

1. Two staff members already agree.

2. Over forty regular members also agree. If you think that one Discussion Moderator and one former staff member can override all that then you're not fit to be staff.
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Override not, but it would be far more easier to have arguments heard and argued back in a far less chaotic thread with less people in it and less replies, tackling 1 thing at a time when having a proper argument for it rather than lots of people throwing in their takes and comments over it even when that's the same others have already said. I have some levels of general distrust, which is not the same as "what I think>what everyone else put together thinks".
 
MrWarnerTheGreat said:
I agree with Low 2-C (Have for a while actually)

Also (And apologies if this specific point of view was brought up in the thread), isn't Bowser being in the epicenter of the Star collapse alone already Low 2-C? Like it's irrelevant if Rosalina eventually shielded him or not if we visibly see him get engulfed by the explosion radius for a time.
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We’ve talked about it for a while but I think it’s better we focus on the feats mentioned in the OP until needed
 
And before Ant gets here someone should summarize the argument on both sides, I suck at summaries so I am pretty much incapable of doing it
 
Eficiente said:
Override not, but it would be far more easier to have arguments heard and argued back in a far less chaotic thread with less people in it and less replies, tackling 1 thing at a time when having a proper argument for it rather than lots of people throwing in their takes and comments over it even when that's the same others have already said. I have some levels of general distrust, which is not the same as "what I think>what everyone else put together thinks".
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Much better. Poor wording last time my dude.
 
DaReaperMan said:
And before Ant gets here someone should summarize the argument on both sides, I suck at summaries so I am pretty much incapable of doing it
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From memory for the Black Jewel

proposal: the Amount of Universal+ Feats Match the Amount of Feats for Multi-Solar System, By our Rules for the Mario-verse, Universal+ For the Mario Cast shouldn’t be seen as a outlier

Black Jewel:
-Creates a Universe according to the Nintendo Europe Website
-Wario Defeats the Black Jewel in Single unamped Conbat
-Wario Is in the middle of the universes disappearance

Opposition:
-The Black Jewel May be a Glass canon
-the Creation Feat may not scale
-Wario being in the middle of it’s destruction is too vague, in regards if it’s a physical thing Wario is taking, a bunch of Spritelings also survived who at supposedly maximum power created a castle at best
-The Original Japanese Website calls it a World and not Universe

Counter Arguments:
-there isn’t a brought up anti-feat for the Jewel as far as I see to make it a glass canon or that the Creation doesn’t scale, which per the Wiki’s rules, is the automatic assumption
-in the end Wario was still in the middle of it’s space time continuum while it seemingly was destroyed
-the Spritelings surviving may be a outlier for them and not Wario, the Spritelings also did have enough power in the past to seal the jewel
-In Japanese the Word for World and Universe are the same, there’s no translation that completely contradicts it being a Universe, it can be also argued that some English Sources saying “Parallel World” supports the idea this is a Universe as well since it’s compared to ours/the world of Mario
 
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