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Mario CRT (Low 2-C Upgrade)

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For the record, there is a staff member who fully supports this. Me. I fully support the Low 2-C upgrade.


You're a former staff member who's being outvoted the entire thread, current staff included, Matt. Sorry to say, but this is going through.

Edit: misread an earlier post as claiming that no staff agreed with this. Regardless, this point still stands. Apologises for the unintentionally hostile tone.
 
Another thing to add is that Rosalina also needed to be there to straight-up save the Universe and reset time, even if Mario wasn't gonna die he'd still be floating in a void and everyone would die. Like others have said, Rosalina never showed any reason to try to save Bowser and he was already there right at the epicenter of the explosion and was shown dazed later on.

And for the point already addressed, the point about "Bowser using only a fraction of the power of the Grand Star", why would Bowser only use a fraction of a power of a thing he literally CONSUMED and physically altered him within seconds in a last-ditch effort if he wasn't gonna use all of it?

I also saw someone argue that characters like Barry Allen use the power of the Speed Force and he's not automatically Low 1-C, but Bowser was absorbing the entire star. It's like if Barry absorbed the entirety of the Speed Force and only used a fraction of its power, when he can just use the Speed Force normally without doing that.

Either way, along with the additional Japanese translations, i've seen no counterargument that really dispels the above arguments and honestly, i think Mario is fine being Low 2-C.
 
It's hard to keep up with this as many of this topics were already covered before with arguments I don't fully remember, I told people to make a blog and sent their reasons as to why X things are wrong there. Now I can't argue everything as I don't get the full picture.

I just have this few things in mind
  • All bosses powered from Power Stars should scale to their feats and scaling that makes sense, it's clear that many are lower than 4-A.
  • For Black Jewel if the og text doesn't point out a universe then it's not a universe, that kanji that can mean world, society or universe needs to logically be taken as world as that takes less speculation. I'm pretty sure that it's mostly used as world and society, like many words that are also used for their "lower" meaning such as Hoshi. I also agree that it's just a Creation feat that shouldn't scale to AP, isn't stuff like this why we have the Stabilization Feats page? Simply "created ir and it went down with its death, so its every punch hits as hard as that" is the type of nonsense we want to avoid.
  • Other characters like Flash absorbing things is a false equivalence when there are reasons to believe characters like Bowser wouldn't necessarily use their full power when powered by it.
 
Eficiente said:
It's hard to keep up with this as many of this topics were already covered before with arguments I don't fully remember, I told people to make a blog and sent their reasons as to why X things are wrong there. Now I can't argue everything as I don't get the full picture.

I just have this few things in mind
  • For Black Jewel if the og text doesn't point out a universe then it's not a universe, that kanji that can mean world, society or universe needs to logically be taken as world as that takes less speculation. I'm pretty sure that it's mostly used as world and society, like many words that are also used for their "lower" meaning such as Hoshi. I also agree that it's just a Creation feat that shouldn't scale to AP, isn't stuff like this why we have the Stabilization Feats page? Simply "created ir and it went down with its death, so its every punch hits as hard as that" is the type of nonsense we want to avoid.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure it's not just that the black jewel can stabilize and create stuff, it's also that Wario survived the collapse.
 
Eficiente said:
All bosses powered from Power Stars should scale to their feats and scaling that makes sense, it's clear that many are lower than 4-A.
Click to expand...
Okay, explain the anti-feats from Grand Star users.

Eficiente said:
For Black Jewel if the og text doesn't point out a universe then it's not a universe, that kanji that can mean world, society or universe needs to logically be taken as world as that takes less speculation. I'm pretty sure that it's mostly used as world and society, like many words that are also used for their "lower" meaning such as Hoshi. I also agree that it's just a Creation feat that shouldn't scale to AP, isn't stuff like this why we have the Stabilization Feats page? Simply "created ir and it went down with its death, so its every punch hits as hard as that" is the type of nonsense we want to avoid.
Click to expand...
We've already established how world can mean universe, and since the Europe site says parallel universe, and the guide also saying parallel world, it's clear that it can in-fact mean universe, and thus have no contradictions towards it. Not to mention its death literally destroyed said parallel universe, which Wario tanked right in front of his face. Said world also has stars and a sun.

Eficiente said:
Other characters like Flash absorbing things is a false equivalence when there are reasons to believe characters like Bowser wouldn't necessarily use their full power when powered by it.
Click to expand...
Alrighty, prove why Bowser can't use the full power.
 
Eficiente said:
For Black Jewel if the og text doesn't point out a universe then it's not a universe, that kanji that can mean world, society or universe needs to logically be taken as world as that takes less speculation. I'm pretty sure that it's mostly used as world and society, like many words that are also used for their "lower" meaning such as Hoshi. I also agree that it's just a Creation feat that shouldn't scale to AP, isn't stuff like this why we have the Stabilization Feats page? Simply "created ir and it went down with its death, so its every punch hits as hard as that" is the type of nonsense we want to avoid.
Click to expand...
What makes you think the less speculation is always the true one? You have to prove why it shouldn't be a universe, considering that the kanji can mean universe and even the world word can mean universe.
 
DragonLord said:
I think that was rejected since the Elves (which collectively were strong enough to create a castle and needed all of them to do that) also survived that
Click to expand...
Bad argument, just because some peeps are able to survived it doesn't mean the feat is wrong (that might be considered an outlier for them)
 
Starsprite53 said:
Bad argument, just because some peeps are able to survived it doesn't mean the feat is wrong (that might be considered an outlier for them)
Click to expand...
I mean, I dunno there’s like 40 different Spritelings who individually create like, a plant I think?, at that point this supposed Universe Crush seems kinda weak, though honestly automatically assuming it’s an entire universe being crushed seems odd from the get go

though thinking about it, Is there saying something it’s about power needed rather then say, how grateful they are to Wario?, I guess that would make the scaling make more sense
 
I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die said:
Pretty sure it's not just that the black jewel can stabilize and create stuff, it's also that Wario survived the collapse.
Click to expand...
The place didn't blow up in his face, let alone from his face and expanding from there to the whole place, it just collapsed by way of dematerializing, just ceasing to exist. It's not a feat to survive that.

If a universe were to blow up in all parts akin to a buiding having many, many bombs all over it then surviving that would be unqualifiable beyond visuals, the second example I gave is 3-A, and what happened here is pretty common, pretty much the same also happened to Sub-Space from SSBB and Another Dimension from Kirby, with characters surviving it and all.
DatOneWeeb said:
Okay, explain the anti-feats from Grand Star users.
Click to expand...
Would take me way too much time, I leave that to Matt or anyone caring.
DatOneWeeb said:
We've already established how world can mean universe, and since the Europe site says parallel universe, and the guide also saying parallel world, it's clear that it can in-fact mean universe, and thus have no contradictions towards it. Not to mention its death literally destroyed said parallel universe, which Wario tanked right in front of his face. Said world also has stars and a sun.
Click to expand...
If the reality has stars and a sun then they can be in a world, thus making sense that it's called a parallel world. Parallel world doesn't necessarily mean universe.
DatOneWeeb said:
Alrighty, prove why Bowser can't use the full power.
Click to expand...
I believe Matt has made the argument over how Bowser harms himself in SMG when exposed to a tiny bit of the Grand Star's energy during his fights, despite being stronger than Mario and former bosses who were powered by the thing. It doesn't add up that they would all be able to use their full power but it would make perfect sense that they amp everyone to some degree in which they can still be fought by comparable foes.
Starsprite53 said:
What makes you think the less speculation is always the true one? You have to prove why it shouldn't be a universe, considering that the kanji can mean universe and even the world word can mean universe.
Click to expand...
Common sense.
 
Eficiente said:
Would take me way too much time, I leave that to Matt or anyone caring.
Click to expand...
Concession accepted.

Eficiente said:
If the reality has stars and a sun then they can be in a world, thus making sense that it's called a parallel world. Parallel world doesn't necessarily mean universe.
Click to expand...
Right, but in this case we have a statement of it being a parallel universe. Which would make it consistent with having stars and a sun, as well as being called a parallel world.

Eficiente said:
I believe Matt has made the argument over how Bowser harms himself in SMG when exposed to a tiny bit of the Grand Star's energy during his fights, despite being stronger than Mario and former bosses who were powered by the thing. It doesn't add up that they would all be able to use their full power but it would make parfect sense that they amp everyone to some degree in which they can still be fought by comparable foes.
Click to expand...
So wait, why exactly is it "a tiny bit of energy" again? The reactor was using it for a Low 2-C feat, and Bowser full on punched his fist inside of it. He would've died from it, but he can punch it as much as he wants to, it doesn't kill him, just momentarily burn him.
 
Eficiente said:
The place didn't blow up in his face, let alone from his face and expanding from there to the whole place, it just collapsed by way of dematerializing, just ceasing to exist. It's not a feat to survive that.
Click to expand...

Eficiente said:
If a universe were to blow up in all parts akin to a buiding having many, many bombs all over it then surviving that would be unqualifiable beyond visuals, the second example I gave is 3-A, and what happened here is pretty common, pretty much the same also happened to Sub-Space from SSBB and Another Dimension from Kirby, with characters surviving it and all.
Click to expand...
Wait wait wait... being alive after the complete destruction of space time isn't a feat??? What, if space and time dematerialized right now we wouldn't be dead? That's like saying that some parts of the building that are less then the overall building itself, wouldn't disappear if the entire building just faded away. The stuff is a part of the building and is also lesser than it. Of course that shit is fading away.

If Wario is only 3D, then he should NOT be alive, period. The removal of space time in the universe itself would kill him if he was only 3D. Not like this matters anyway because we literally see Wario beat up the Black Jewel, who is already accepted as Low 2-C on the website so this whole counter argument is entirely irrelevant. What you need to do is prove that the Black Jewel isn't Low 2-C.

Eficiente said:
If the reality has stars and a sun then they can be in a world, thus making sense that it's called a parallel world. Parallel world doesn't necessarily mean universe.
Click to expand...
And no, this isn't proof that it's not Low 2-C. This is literally in the OP.

Eficiente said:
I believe Matt has made the argument over how Bowser harms himself in SMG when exposed to a tiny bit of the Grand Star's energy during his fights, despite being stronger than Mario and former bosses who were powered by the thing. It doesn't add up that they would all be able to use their full power but it would make perfect sense that they amp everyone to some degree in which they can still be fought by comparable foes.
Click to expand...
If the energy is clearly stated to be Low 2-C, and Bowser is also Low 2-C, then what makes you think he CAN'T be harmed by this? Bowser can touch the energy and still be alive during the ending cutscene. I don't see the point of this argument. Just because Bowser can be damaged doesn't mean that the feat is suddenly inconsistent. After diving headfirst into the Grand Star Energy multiple times, Bowser is still alive.
 
liluzivert said:
Wait wait wait... being alive after the complete destruction of space time isn't a feat??? What, if space and time dematerialized right now we wouldn't be dead? That's like saying that some parts of the building that are less then the overall building itself, wouldn't disappear if the entire building just faded away. The stuff is a part of the building and is also lesser than it. Of course that shit is fading away.

If Wario is only 3D, then he should NOT be alive, period. The removal of space time in the universe itself would kill him if he was only 3D. Not like this matters anyway because we literally see Wario beat up the Black Jewel, who is already accepted as Low 2-C on the website so this whole counter argument is entirely irrelevant. What you need to do is prove that the Black Jewel isn't Low 2-C.


And no, this isn't proof that it's not Low 2-C. This is literally in the OP.


If the energy is clearly stated to be Low 2-C, and Bowser is also Low 2-C, then what makes you think he CAN'T be harmed by this? Bowser can touch the energy and still be alive during the ending cutscene. I don't see the point of this argument. Just because Bowser can be damaged doesn't mean that the feat is suddenly inconsistent. After diving headfirst into the Grand Star Energy multiple times, Bowser is still alive.
Click to expand...
This man spitting truth
 
Agreement: Maverick Zero X, Pink999999, Oleggator, Gabs22_Gamer, TyranoDoom30, Starsprite53, Bernkastelll, Ned_the_outer_god, QuasiYuri, Rtxthegamer, ElixirBlue, Lord_JJJ, MikeBro25, DaRepearMan, Foxthefox1000, Mozzada, AmiEXE, Psychomaster35, FoxySonicMaster, LuckyEmile, Da_Lunge_Fish, Jared1111, Fastestthingalive50, liluzivert, GreenShifter, deonment, MikeBro25, The_Wright_Way, InfiniteDay, DatOneWeeb, TheQuirkyBoy, Ari64-SP, Bobsican, GyroNutz, XSOULOFCINDERX, ShakeResounding, I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die, y3p_owo (38)

Neutral: (0)

Disagree: Matthew_Schroeder, Eficiente (2)
 
I also want to address this.

For everyone who argued against using guides - fine. Let's not consider the Prima Guide and instead focus on what happens in the game.

Bowser is on the reactor, it explodes, Lumas make the resulting black hole collapse in on itself taking the universe with it, then it is remade, fade to white. Rosalina appears to a floating Mario saying that life is a cycle and the universe is no exception blah blah, fade to white. Mario wakes up on Earth. He and Peach seem to have been unconscious and they see a stumbling Bowser rubbing at his temple and groaning as if he has just taken a nasty blow to the head and is recuperating.

Now, where exactly is it even shown in-game Rosie even USED her shields to protect Peach or Mario? For all we know Rosalina appearing to him happened while he was already unconscious. We have even less details to assume Bowser having a headache and the only unpleasant reaction was just because he had a little nightmare when he literally stood at the epicenter of reality being destroyed not moments before all of this and has reason to feel pain. Why is he the only "remade" person feeling pain if you subscribe to that belief?

I don't want to say Occam's Razor but like, there's really only one good explanation. I think you know what it is.

Also, about the "little portions of power" argument. The first Grand Star you rescue in Galaxy that's powering a machine is dull and bronze, the Lumas literally fearing for it's safety. Why wouldn't we assume at the least that Bowser is taking most of their energy, and why tf would he not want all of their energy? That wouldn't make any sense.

This is just supplementing arguments already made. Mario beats multiple enemies powered by Grand Stars in both games, and you know the kicker? Grand Star Bowser was stated to having been getting stronger with each fight, and Lubba even says Mario appeared more exhausted and tattered. Mario directly is sourced to have tanked hits from and directly battled Bowser to the point of having to stress himself. And please do point to me where Grand Stars have a feat or statement that implies a power far less than Low 2-C. I'd really love to see it.

If you bring up the "Bowser wanted to create a new galaxy" thing then do note that there are also various sources, guides and the Japanese translation that implies the Grand Stars could function on a universal scale. Not like creating a galaxy says they can't also destroy or create a universe either.

 
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LuckyEmile said:
as for the shielding, Rosalina does seem pretty hostile towards Bowser, he tends to get called a monster by the SMG cast, he stole all her stars and left her Comet Observatory to die, and separated Mario from his special one... She probably doesn't really want to protect him.
Click to expand...
While i don’t think this would directly debunk much, I would want to point out Rosalina/The Luma’s probably did at least Move Bowser’s Position when the new universe/Galaxy or whatever was made, he wouldn’t be next to Mario and Peach if he was having a headache in the middle of space, even if he had teleportation, showing that they had some regards for Bowsers safety or whatever

....how did the Queen Bee and the rest get back home anyway?, did they?, man that be a dick move
 
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DragonLord said:
While i don’t think it directly debunks much, I would say Rosalina/The Luma’s probably did at least Move Bowser’s Position when the new universe/Galaxy or whatever was made, he wouldn’t be next to Mario and Peach if he was having a headache in the middle of space, even if he had teleportation, showing that they had some regards for Bowsers safety or whatever

....how did the Queen Bee and the rest get back home anyway?, did they?, man that be a dick move
Click to expand...
It does debunk, what you have said doesn't debunk much, you just using pure headcanon without explanation or proof
 
Starsprite53 said:
It does debunk, what you have said doesn't debunk much, you just using pure headcanon without explanation or proof
Click to expand...
....I don’t think the Middle of Universe is the exact same spot as Peach’es Lawn, right next to where Mario and Peach were, right where everyone else is too and where Rosalina and The Luma’s are looking at before they head off, I’d say Someone probably did Move his position at least after the whole reset button, I don’t really see why else he’d be there specially if he’s so shaken by the Explosion
 
DragonLord said:
While i don’t think it directly debunks much, I would say Rosalina/The Luma’s probably did at least Move Bowser’s Position when the new universe/Galaxy or whatever was made, he wouldn’t be next to Mario and Peach if he was having a headache in the middle of space, even if he had teleportation, showing that they had some regards for Bowsers safety or whatever

....how did the Queen Bee and the rest get back home anyway?, did they?, man that be a dick move
Click to expand...
Not too sure we know exactly why everyone ends up in the Mushroom Kingdom, so I wouldn't credit Rosalina and the Lumas... The Lumas just seemed to use their ability to stun things (as we see Co-Star Luma expand upon in SMG2) on the black hole to stop it from destroying everything, and the resulting clash (that weird red-blue typhoon in the void) ends up building up so much energy it creates something akin to a big bang, whilst Rosalina handled shielding everyone. I don't know how much of a role they played in everyone's relocation, but I assume it wasn't down to them...

I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to put across and I sure hope everyone gets a ride home after the festival! but if if you're trying to use it as proof Rosalina is being unbiased and decided to protect Bowser... I still think she'd be a bit too late on that for the reasons I said before. (Not to mention the relocation happened after all these insane events, so Bowser wouldn't be getting relocated during and would be stuck at the epicentre of it all...)
 
LuckyEmile said:
Not too sure we know exactly why everyone ends up in the Mushroom Kingdom, so I wouldn't credit Rosalina and the Lumas... The Lumas just seemed to use their ability to stun things (as we see Co-Star Luma expand upon in SMG2) on the black hole to stop it from destroying everything, and the resulting clash (that weird red-blue typhoon in the void) ends up building up so much energy it creates something akin to a big bang, whilst Rosalina handled shielding everyone. I don't know how much of a role they played in everyone's relocation, but I assume it wasn't down to them...

I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to put across and I sure hope everyone gets a ride home after the festival! but if if you're trying to use it as proof Rosalina is being unbiased and decided to protect Bowser... I still think she'd be a bit too late on that for the reasons I said before. (Not to mention the relocation happened after all these insane events, so Bowser wouldn't be getting relocated during and would be stuck at the epicentre of it all...)
Click to expand...
Like I Said I don’t think it directly debunks Bowser taking the explosion, but I do think they probably did change Bowser’s position for his safety or just to set back the Status quo or whatever, I mean the scene right after everyone wakes up is rosalina looking down on where the festival is taking place and going “I’ll watch over you”, without much else possible I feel like the natural implication is that some mysterious force moved everyone to that one spot
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Should also be worth mentioning that Bowser isn't simply just knocked out in the ending. He's actively withdrawn into his shell, a typical defensive measure he and his kind take all the time to do, um, what? Avoid damage.
Click to expand...

This does sound plausible, though that does ask, Bowser’s shell has naturally more durability then the rest of his body (even his Vs wiki page has a special thing for this), if he did use his shell to take the explosion like this would imply is there moments where Base Mario can hurt Bowser’s Shell to show he still scales?
 
His shell has openings so his body would still get hit to an extent, his shell is used to minimize damage, not avoid it altogether.
 
I definitely know Super Stars in a few games can just one-shot regardless of where you touch Bowser.

However it should still be said that Bowser still took damage from it. If he was fully shielded by his own shell he wouldn't be dazed, stumbling, and feeling up his head. And yes it does have openings. An explosion of universal size, omnidirectional and all would surely still hit.
 
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Greenshifter said:
His shell has openings so his body would still get hit to an extent, his shell is used to minimize damage, not avoid it altogether.
Click to expand...
I mean that’s generally not how it works in the games, even if you aim for the openings it still doesn’t hurt him from my memory, plus from where he was sitting in the cutscene the majority, if not all of the impact would be on his shell’s lower half

plus in the same game this feat happens he’s able to completely cover himself with his shell, making him immune to Mario’s attacks

Foxthefox1000 said:
I definitely know Super Stars in a few games can just one-shot regardless of where you touch Bowser.

However it should still be said that Bowser still took damage from it. If he was fully shielded by his own shell he wouldn't be dazed, stumbling, and feeling up his head.
Click to expand...
I mean yeah if I was in an invulnerable Space ship and it just got in a Supernova, the sheer amount of spinning i’d go through while inside that ship due to the force on my Ship would make me dazed and stumbling, probably hard to walk for a bit

I mean, Humans get dazed on Boats with there constant shifting of the ocean, doesn’t mean the humans can take those waves without damage
 
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The majority of those arguments seem to be game mechanics to me. Also you agree with the majority of the impact being on his shell, which means the minority of the impact is on his body and since his body is still in one piece, it also scales.
 
The underside of the shells aren't as durable iirc.

Like a mechanic in paper mario and in many fights show Bowser's belly/body and Koopa's exposed on their backs can be harmed easily.
 
Greenshifter said:
The majority of those arguments seem to be game mechanics to me. Also you agree with the majority of the impact being on his shell, which means the minority of the impact is on his body and since his body is still in one piece, it also scales.
Click to expand...
Wouldn’t that depend on how much the “Minority” is, I mean the holes in the shell aren’t too large (how does his arms fit in there anyway), he’s pretty deep in there (so much you can’t even see his face in a majority of games where he does this, and in the same game he can fully cover himself to block attacks and become a ball, and if being the minority of the power isn’t a argument wouldn’t we already be considering Bowser taking the reactor lava as a universal feat, or did I miss something, (I also didn’t fully agree with the majority thing, but I would say it’s a possibility, but the explosion itself doesn’t look like it would go inside the shell, it looks more like a concussive blast to me)


Foxthefox1000 said:
The underside of the shells aren't as durable iirc.

Like a mechanic in paper mario and in many fights show Bowser's belly/body and Koopa's exposed on their backs can be harmed easily.
Click to expand...
I Suppose, however the majority of those times he isn’t fully covering himself, usually waving his arms and on his back, when he is fully covering himself and on his belly, even attacking the lower half generally does nothing from my memory

and while you can call that Game Mechanics, the Back of his shell generally has the same issue, when not curled up there’s plenty of times it has been hurt, besides the idea his Shell has showable higher durability is a thing from game mechanics, I don’t believe any cutscene in the games had him use it as a defensive thing from my memory
 
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Greenshifter said:
Nah any finite fraction of low 2-C energy is low 2-C, if anything lowballing the amount of energy his body took only highballs the durability of his shell but they'll both be the same tier.
Click to expand...
I remember that being argued about in the this thread itself, is that how the rules work?, I feel I’ve seen plenty of characters who’d have taken similar things but don’t get that rating, I mean if that’s the rules then I guess but I’d still say it’s definitive his body took any of it tbh
 
DragonLord said:
I remember that being argued about in the this thread itself, is that how the rules work?, I feel I’ve seen plenty of characters who’d have taken similar things but don’t get that rating, I mean if that’s the rules then I guess but I’d still say it’s definitive his body took any of it tbh
Click to expand...
"X didn't get that so Y shouldn't" thingy again.
And we should not forget that bowser tanked the SPM void while not being Hidden in his shell.
 
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