Maou Gakuin Revisions Part 2

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

The Origin: Revenge of the concept​

Lets start with the big elephant in the room first. Last thread people said that it was a bit vague to be considered a concept. But when I tried to argue that it could be essence manip, people said it was conceptual manip...Well, see for yourselves:

The MG example looks exactly like concept manipulation. To a T, in fact, so I’m surprised it was rejected. And the explanation for Essence looks exactly like Concept or Information Manip as well- manipulating what makes up someone and their traits and whatnot certainly sounds like Concept Manip.

Those exemple seem near identical to conceptual manipulation to me too, yeah. And while sub powers can exist with some context (see elemental vs fire manipulation), this one is just a different name for what is already achieved by other abilities.

As I stated before, I have no idea why the Origin thing was denied as Concept Manipulation. The problem is Essence Manipulation, as defined in the OP, is literally just Concept Manipulation. ‘Manipulating the traits that make someone’ sounds exactly like what a Concept is. It’s description is exactly what Concept Manipulation does, and an Origin thing is a dead ringer for Concepts in the first place.

Now, lets take a look at the quotes about the origin again (with extra stuff)


It makes up a being's existence; And exists across past, present and future

"Magic is born in the first place from the demonic roots that lies within one's body. You would speak more commonly of the soul and psyche, but the roots lies even deeper - they are what makes us, us."

"Do you get it now? A pain that surpasses death itself is felt when your origin is hurt. Try to condense every possible pain in this world and it wouldn’t be enough to match this pain. Its the death of your next life, and the next one and so on into eternity."

''But if the sword of the Almighty is not sheathed, then, through the power of that divine sword, the origin of the one who pulls it out will be annihilated in the present, past, and future.''

Its present in everything and its different from the soul;

“2 divided souls. Due to its origin, it is destined to return to being one. Don’t you think there should be another origin?”



“Sorry. No magic can produce the exact same person. There is only one origin for everything in this world.”

The target gets erased from existence if their origin is damaged or destroyed

I dared to receive the spirit god sword that can destroy the origin of the demon king.



They may have come to save the demon king of tyranny but they are too late.



The light that surrounded my body burst open and as it subsides my body disappears.

And its stated to be a concept

The origin is the concept of existence, hidden in all living things. Those who have an excellent command of magic can be reborn, retaining their memories in their core. If the origin is intact, it is possible to resurrect even after the body has been destroyed. -Keyword

So it should be either a concept or information (the latter is less likely)

Power Additions​

Acausality (Type 4): Anos and Graham are "misfits" that exists outside the world's framework, order, reason and logic altogether

"I think I've been outside the logic of the world for a long time. Like you, I've been targeted by the gods from time to time. Aganzon, the mad god, is one of them." (Graham)

A light gathers at his fingertips and the Selection Bead appears.

"There's another similarity here. It's very similar to how you turned Averniu, the God of Destruction, into the Demon King's Castle Delzogade. We're acting similarly, even if we don't measure it." (Graham)

"Unlike me, who took away the order of destruction, though, you seem to have left the order of Aganzon behind." (Anos)

"You're outside the reason of the world, too. So much so that the gods have called you a misfit." (Graham)

"What about it?" (Anos)

Graham looked happier than ever. It was as if he had found someone to talk to for the first time.

"Where do you think we came from?" (Graham)

"I'm not going to argue philosophy with you." (Anos)

I stared at the Falsification God Scythe with my demon eyes dyed in annihilation purple.

"No, this isn't a philosophy. This is a story about the world, about order, about magic. We're outside the logic of this world. Only we both are. How could you be outside of that framework, out of the world's order?" (Graham)

Probability Manipulation: Anos' magic power fluctuates between possibility, so too, does his root and his body, when Anos uses this ability he encompasses all possibilities, the possibility that he attacks, or the possibility that he doesn't, all at once.

"The Wave Body Covered Manifestation <Veneziara> is the magic that makes the possible real." (Anos)

"...... possibilities to ...... real ......?　What are you talking about ......? (Ahide)

"You dont get it? With the revolving sword in its sheath, there is the possibility that I may or may not draw this sword. With the Wave Body Covered Manifestation <Veneziara>, I have made both of those possibilities a reality." (Anos)

I project the Almighty's sword, Levine Girma, into Ahide's vision. It is still in its scabbard.

"I have not pulled this sword out of its scabbard as long as it is in its scabbard. If this is in the scabbard, I will not be destroyed. On the contrary, the fact that I have not perished proves that I have not drawn this sword." (Anos)

"If you don't pull out ......, you shouldn't be able to harm this immortal divine body ......." (Ahide)

Ahide says, stunned.

"Then the story will be simple. That immortal divine body has been injured, which means that Revein Gilma has been pulled out. Of course, it's still in its scabbard." (Anos)

Ahide furrows his brow as if he doesn't understand.

"The Almighty has made a sword that no one can pull off. If the Almighty pulled out his sword, he would have been unable to make a sword that no one else could pull out. But if the Almighty doesn't pull out the sword, he cannot be said to be omnipotent. So what does the Almighty do?" (Anos)

I tell Ahide, whose expression becomes more and more distorted, my answer.

"The answer is this. The Almighty cannot draw this sword. But he can pull it out at the same time. The sword that no one else can pull out is pulled out without being able to do so. It's a simple logic. If you're called omnipotent, you must be able to draw and not draw, at the same time." (Anos)


"...... What the hell do you mean...but you can't do that? There is no way you can do that .......It's a contradiction......" (Ahide)



　I stab a smile at the bewildered Ahide and say, "That's the Wave Body Covered Veneziara.


"That's the Wave Body Covered Manifestation <Veneziara>. To pull out and not to pull out, no matter how contradictory, both can exist at the same time if it is only possible." (Anos)



　I may or may not pull out this sword.

　It's natural for the two to exist at the same time.


"And I made that possibility a reality at the same time. The contradictory Wave-Body Covered Manifestation <Veneziara> can exist at the same time, because its only a possibility, wether it exists or not." (Anos)

Regeneration (High-Godly): In the same way Graham can return to existence after his origin (concept) is destroyed, Anos too will overcome perdition towards his origin, and thats why Graham avoids killing him that way since it would only make Anos stronger. He will keep returning over and over again.

Soon, the scarlet lightning disappeared as if it had exhausted its power. 　

At the same time, the apocalyptic fire silently disappears. 　

Graham's body goes limp as he is pierced by my right hand. The root has been destroyed. I can no longer feel any magical power.

"Here." (Graham)

The body of a shell that doesn't even involve faint magical power moves. That hand certainly grabbed my arm.

"I am indestructible. I'm a lot like you, aren't I?" (Graham) 　

The body that should not be moving is moving.

Even after receiving a direct hit from the world-destroying Egil Groene Angdroa, and the world-destroying Ashlar Cannon, his root has not been destroyed.

No, to be more precise, the root have been destroyed and disappeared, but somehow an empty root that should have no power is still there.

''Vacant Void -Nueriane-" (Graham) 　

Graham's body faded and eventually disappeared completely. As usual, his magic power is zero. No matter how hard I tried to look through my magic eye, I couldn't see any power. But as soon as I noticed, I took a big step back.

"Hm." (Anos)

I can't feel my fingertips that I was thrusting into his belly.

He was slightly slow to retreat, or about a millimeter was shaved off. 　

The fingertips that concentrated on the Root Source Death Killing Bevsud, the Demon Black Thunder Emperor Jirasd, and the Jiao Death Burning Brilliant Flame Burning Aviastan Ziara were annihilated, unable to put up any resistance. 　

In the battle with Iges, Graham's root disappeared once. 　

When he returned afterwards, he had easily annihilated the Red Blood Demon Spear. If I hadn't seen it, he might have taken my whole arm with him.

I turn my magical eye to the spot where he was. 　

The root cause is gone, and even the body is gone.

But it is definitely there.

"There is nothing." (Anos) 　

Nothingness is there and its active.

"You understand very well" (Graham) 　

Out of nowhere, Graham's voice rang out. 　

It didn't seem to be coming from anywhere in this place, but I was trapped in the illusion that it was coming from everywhere in this place.

"Yes, my root is emptiness, just as your root is destruction. The closer I get to annihilation, the more I exert my power and return to my original nothingness." (Graham)

Slightly, Graham's body came into view. 　

The one who had been turned into nothing by the Extreme Prison Realm Annihilation Egil Groene Angdroa had regained his true power. 　

And because he had regained his true power, he was no longer nothing, and was about to return to his previous form? 　

Eventually, the emptiness of the Vacant Void -Nueriane- disappeared completely, and there stood Graham.

"It's strange that there is something that isn't there. But it sounds a lot like you, doesn't it?" (Graham) 　

He speaks in blubbery, flimsy language and asks.

"With you, born and fallen with destruction." (Graham)

"Did you think you could use Resurrection Ingal even if you were reduced to only your roots?" (Graham)　

He turns his magical eye on the headless me.

"Everything is chaotic in front of the Falsification Goddess Scythe. Things that shouldn't happen, happens." (Graham)　

As if it's obvious, Graham says.

Like he's responding to a word I haven't heard.

"I know. Still, you will not perish. The closer you come to perdition, the brighter your roots become. In the same way I become emptiness and come back to existence, you will overcome destruction." (Graham)

Spinning the scythe around, he let it go.

"So I won't destroy you." (Graham)

"Did you ever think that if I lost Celis Vordigord's head, I wouldn't be able to use the Wave-Body Revealed Veneziara?" (Graham) 　

He must have exercised his magic just before he was about to turn his body to ashes.

"Your source and my source are now opposed and rivaled by annihilation and emptiness. My source brings you closer to emptiness and your source brings me destruction. As you wish, we will continue to perish over and over, returning to nothingness." (Graham)

Speed: Infinite/Immeasurable (will be a new key most likely): Stopped a spear that lacks the concept of time and transcends space and time. The spear can also toss away its targets far away across space and time.

"There is nothing that my magic spear cant penetrate. You should know that there is no armor nor speed in front of Dihid Atem."

Eges holds a spear firmly, dropping the center of gravity and aiming the tip of the ear at the target.

The distance to Jennell is about 10 meters, but it already covered the distance between the Dark Lord.

No, there is no concept of time for Eges's magic spear.

"Lets go"

Dihiid Atem gleams like a flash of light and is thrust out at Graham.

The tip of the spear that transcended time and space appeared in front of him and pierced his heart.

For a moment, the demonic spear slipped through Graham's body, as if a purple electric current had flashed through it.

''There's no time for the Red Blood Demon Spear" (Eges)

Silently, the blood gate opened.

Behind it, the Dark Lord holds his spear at the ready.

"You are looking for the Founding Star Erial behind this gate, in the temple at the top of the stone steps. If you want memories, you can go through here." (Eges)


The peaceful Dark Lord glares at me behind the gate.


There's no time for his magic spear.

A flash of red light raced at an unstoppable speed.



''I dont think so!"



The Red Blood Demon Spear Dihiid Atem aims straight at my face.

I wore the Four Realms Wall <Beno Yeven> in my right hand and accepted it.



Immediately afterwards, the tip of the spear of Dhrid's Atem turned to liquid form and the red blood adhered to the Four Realms Wall Benno Yeven.



''<Blood Gate Spear Chimonsou>''



　The Four Realms Wall of Benno Yevhen, clad in my right hand, was sent far out into space and time, and before I could deploy the next barrier, the solidified Dichid Atem pierced my right arm again.



''Leave.'' (Eges)



The tip of the spear turns to red blood and sticks to my right hand like a bed.

It lures me away from time and space faster than I can destroy it with the magical eye of doom.



"Blood Gate Spear." (Eges)



Immediately, I cut off my right arm with my left hand.

The right arm, which was bathed in the <Blood Gate Spear>, was swallowed up into the distance of time and space and disappeared without a trace.

Nonexistent Erasure: Venuzdonoa was capable of erasing Graham's nonexistence.

I pierce the purple lightning flooding in front of me with my Venuzdonoa and pierce his heart as it is, stabbing and destroying the root.



　Even the scarlet electric red lightning doesn't overflow, and his life is stopped.



''Did you think I couldn't destroy you just because you are nothingness?" (Anos)



　The root of him who is nothingness will not perish conventionally.

　But all reason makes no sense in the presence of the principle-destroying sword.



　Indeed, that root has now perished.

　Nor does it mean that he who remained in nothingness is still alive, as I said earlier.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I don't like the series, so I disagree.

Just a question though, is the Venuzdonoa nonexistence erasure capable of effecting NEP2, or...

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Graham became a nonexistent after his concept was destroyed by Bebbzud. And he can return to existence at will. And he can also regenerate his erased nothingness. He is by far the strongest character in the series from what Ive seen (excluding Anos)

 

[Rikimarox2]

Ah okay. But what I wanna know is, is that enough to warrant Graham NEP2, or just good old NEP1? From what I heard, having your concept erased and yet still somehow existing might give NEP2, but I'm not really sure.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

From what I heard, having your concept erased and yet still somehow existing might give NEP2, but I'm not really sure.

I mean, thats what Graham does/is, so Type 2 I guess. Unless the requirements changed or smth.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Well, I guess its better we wait for members who are knowledgeable on this NEP bullshit.

Either way, I agree with most of this.

 

[Zaratthustra]

The new info seems to suggest even more that The Origin is a concept.

Acausality, Probability, Nonexistence are good.

The speed seems okay as it's stated multiple times that there are is no concept of time.

I'm not that knowledgeable on High-Godly...seems to be at that level but more opinions could help.

 

[Lapsad]

From what i read , they was brought me to imagined the origin is look like a ball of information contained details of physical thing in reality , it should be information rather than concept ( but can can effect in same scale)

I not sure about high-godly , if you get erased by something in same level of concept (type 3) or information , throught a present and future except the past , it's fit for high-godly well ?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Coming back from information destruction is also High-Godly

 

[Lapsad]

I'm not sure it's neccessary , you need to destroy information (in this case is the origin) from every point of time for high-godly

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

It doesnt need to be in every point of time at once in the case of information. And its more of a concept since it was stated to be so (a concept that exists across past, present and future like it normally would)

 

[SxDragon_King]

From what i read , they was brought me to imagined the origin is look like a ball of information contained details of physical thing in reality , it should be information rather than concept ( but can can effect in same scale)
It's more like a physical shell, it's nothing but a reflection of the origin, not the other way around. In the same way, the origin of each being is an individual component and there can be no two identical origin.

To this end, the origin can be divided into different types, according to the type of creature. So, for example, the origin of Spirits, like their physical shell, are nothing more than abstract concepts that are believed in and embodied as they are presented and exist as long as they are believed. The very energy of spirits and their magic are literally their life force = abstract concepts.

And yes, there is a more obvious example. Jerga, being a hero, divided his origin into parts and it didn't have it as such, but he created the magic of Ask and lived in the memory of people, their origin. And then, 2000 years later, he was reborn without a origin, as a world law = concept or part of reality. He doesn't need a origin, because there is another source to support him as a person.

 

[Elizhaa]

I kind of shared the same opinions as Zaratthustra's views.

I do additionally think Origin being a concept is more legit from the evidence below unlike:

The origin is the concept of existence, hidden in all living things. Those who have an excellent command of magic can be reborn, retaining their memories in their core. If the origin is intact, it is possible to resurrect even after the body has been destroyed. -Keyword

If the origin relates to the concept of existence for everything that exists then I don't mind them being concepts; I recall a similar situation with the heart in kingdom hearts but it was rejected as the abstract heart was less fundamental from existence in KH as characters could still have a soul even without a heart and true death require the death of the body and heart, according to users who know the verse like Sera.

I won't agree with the origin being information; the verse doesn't look to have evidence for it. In my view, the verse need to largely state something like this related to information than something that we just implied.

 

[Ionliosite]

I agree with everything but Acausality, none of that implies they're outside causality at any point. Also, speed should preferably be Infinite based on the quotes.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

The order of the world includes Fate and the wheel of fate. So they exists outside fate too, along being outside reason, logic, laws, etc.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

I agree with everything

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The speed feat seems to be just infinite.

I agree with everything.

 

[Elizhaa]

Just clarifying, if there is no evidence that the weapon can attack though space-time like an attack in the "past", then I think the speed is infinite

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Alright

I suppose the accepted changes are fine to apply, then?

 

[SxDragon_King]

In fact, another tread is coming and there will be more reason to believe that speed is immeasurable.

 

[John985]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/high-godly-regeneration-problem.109109/

Just a question that is not that related, but if a character's concept gets erased, but that said character isn't erased from history, would regenerating from that considered High-Godly or not?

Probably not. High-Godly means recovering from absolute destruction.

and relating to speed, much better to ask Ultima about it.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

The origin exists across past, present and future

 

[Elizhaa]

Alright

I suppose the accepted changes are fine to apply, then?

It seems fine to apply those changes.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Alright, Ive applied the changes and the new key. This thread can be closed now

 

[Elizhaa]

I will close the thread, then.