Maou Gakuin No Futekigousha (The Misfit of Demon King Academy) 2-A for Future World Crystal and Mortal World

[Tatsumi504]

Now this is taking this thing out of context again, the only way she dies is if there is no possibility of her surviving, e.g. if she was about to be killed and their is a possibility that a meteor would fall from the sky to kill whoever that is about to kill her, and she survives. then that’s what happens.
Not that she will exist as that possibility, at this point this is just agenda

No it isn't. If she were to die by a meteor falling on her head, she'll limit the future to one where the meteor doesn't fall which would reality warp it away. If it falls though and she comes back because a possibility she survives exist then she would come back as a possibility (abstract existence) and then proceed to revive her real body.

She sees all possible futures and limit it to one. Nothing more

Except that at this point it isn't probability manipulation anymore. If you nuked a country probability manipulation wouldn't make that country to not get nuked. In nafta's case she limits it to a future where it wasn't nuked but the nuke still happened.
Probability manipulation picks one scenario and discards the other but in nafta's case both exist physically.

 

[ImmortalDread]

There is no burden of proof here on me it’s you. In fact if those infinite version of anos exist, then how come anos could destroy the worlds they live in? Huh a single anos is more powerful than infinite of himself??.

Ngl, I did not understand a single thing you said.

 

[Tatsumi504]

There is no burden of proof here on me it’s you. In fact if those infinite version of anos exist, then how come anos could destroy the worlds they live in? Huh a single anos is more powerful than infinite of himself??.
Like bro common at this point I’m getting tired

Now this is an argument from incredulity and holds no meaning.
anos in all his chadness though would obviously survive the EGA hence the infinite versions of himself wouldn't get affected

 

[Tatsumi504]

Anos graham and celis have used probability manipulation to do impossible things like making two contradictory events happen but in all those cases the 2nd event only existed as a possibility.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Now this is an argument from incredulity and holds no meaning.
anos in all his chadness though would obviously survive the EGA hence the infinite versions of himself wouldn't get affected

Damn this seems immortality type 9 tho

 

[Hajun]

Still same thing again and again nafta is not creating it man he just picks future your whole point is proving you are thinking nafta is creating it she just sees the future and picks one from all the future which still prove that nafta isn't creating it
It's already Exist nafta just seen the other timeline where she can win or not but she didn't win in a single one it is same like where doctor Strange in infinity war did nafta can't control the other timeline but she can see them and in the timelines she can't win the whole point is in the novel it said possible infinite timeline and nafta has said about other timeline so it obviously prove everything

 

[Glis]

I’m going to let this slide since you said you don’t speak English that well, anyway No this does not say multiple version of her exist, it means to kill her, you must destroy every future she in which she survives. I.e. there must be no possibility of her existing

Again the mechanism behind Nafta's precognition is that she's able to see the future via her future selves divine eyes. An earlier version of Nafta, earlier than the presents time, is able to predict "future" through the eyes of the present time Nafta while the present Nafta likewise does the same through Nafta's eyes who's further into the future and so on and so on.

I've kept on repeating this argument the whole time, that Nafta of the present is also just one of the future Nafta to exist in the earlier Nafta's pov and that earlier Nafta would also be described as the future by an even earlier Nafta's pov, essentially for all the past versions pov the future still has yet to occur yet it already physically exist. So If this logic applies to earlier versions of Nafta then it should do too to Nafta of the current who's basically an earlier version of the future.

 

[Hajun]

There is no burden of proof here on me it’s you. In fact if those infinite version of anos exist, then how come anos could destroy the worlds they live in? Huh a single anos is more powerful than infinite of himself??.

And what's wrong anos being stronger then his whole infinite selfs are you trying to find logic in manga Ln and WN like things they are fictional they don't have any logic like how normal human can send balls into space destroyed buildings and things like that if try to find logic here then I can't say anything anymore

 

[Hajun]

Hey guys just call someone to see two admin agreed just need one more this guy is going to ignore everything so just invite someone else to see I don't wanna be rude pain if I did anything rude then iam really sorry

 

[AnotherWay22]

Have we reached the conclusion of this thread yet?

 

[Hajun]

Have we reached the conclusion of this thread yet?

No

 

[Dog3352]

Well, that it makes an explicit reference to Kandaquisort being all the futures and that these in turn are the shape of the world (in this case the world of militia which is 4-D) and it is said that each future is equal to the world itself would be proof enough.

^^^^^

Like Dereck said, shouldn't that be proof enough?

 

[Tatsumi504]

^^^^^

Like Dereck said, shouldn't that be proof enough?

@Fixxed just call staff to evaluate this. We only need one more staff to agree and it can be implemented

 

[Fixxed]

I call many staff, but there is no guarantee that they will appear. Yeah, you guys can help me call the staff

Like i says before:

Then lets start with unlocked profile first, and wait the staff for the locked

 

[Hajun]

I call many staff, but there is no guarantee that they will appear. Yeah, you guys can help me call the staff

Like i says before:

I give link to ask ant about it in mgk discussion thread you can ask him if you want

 

[PrinceofPein]

Still same thing again and again nafta is not creating it man he just picks future your whole point is proving you are thinking nafta is creating it she just sees the future and picks one from all the future which still prove that nafta isn't creating it
It's already Exist nafta just seen the other timeline where she can win or not but she didn't win in a single one it is same like where doctor Strange in infinity war did nafta can't control the other timeline but she can see them and in the timelines she can't win the whole point is in the novel it said possible infinite timeline and nafta has said about other timeline so it obviously prove everything

Seems like you have trouble reading

but not once did I say NAFTA is creating any future, she sees all possible future and can pick one from it by limiting it to the one she picks, so please stop taking my stuffs out of contexts.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Well, that it makes an explicit reference to Kandaquisort being all the futures and that these in turn are the shape of the world (in this case the world of militia which is 4-D) and it is said that each future is equal to the world itself would be proof enough.

Yes it has the power to help her limit the future to the one she wants out of all the possibilities she may see, and again "this in turn are the shapes of the world" is at vague as it gets especially given the context. Also it said "the whole crystal" not that each future she sees.
And the context been that the moment the crystal decides something that's what will happen in the world, trying to go against it, is trying to go against the whole world.
Its not about just the quotes the contexts in which they are made matter

No it isn't. If she were to die by a meteor falling on her head, she'll limit the future to one where the meteor doesn't fall which would reality warp it away. If it falls though and she comes back because a possibility she survives exist then she would come back as a possibility (abstract existence) and then proceed to revive her real body.

You did not read what I wrote, try reading.it again as this is vastly different from what I said.
And also what you describe is not reality warping but probability manipulation.
Reality warping will be her turning the meteor to saw dust.

Probability manipulation picks one scenario and discards the other but in nafta's case both exist physically.

Glad you said this. So where is your proof that when she released the spear, there was a world that anos dodged it but it did not Impale him?

Now this is an argument from incredulity and holds no meaning.

No this is to show how dumb the claim is. You claim there are infinite anos, where is the proof?

she's able to see the future via her future selves divine eyes

Cap, will like to see the scans, thank you

And what's wrong anos being stronger then his whole infinite selfs are you trying to find logic in manga Ln and WN like things they are fictional they don't have any logic like how normal human can send balls into space destroyed buildings and things like that if try to find logic here then I can't say anything anymore

That's not the point you missed it as usual, my point is Infinite anos do not exist.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I call many staff, but there is no guarantee that they will appear. Yeah, you guys can help me call the staff

Like i says before:

I can help you call some staffs to evaluate this

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Since I was part of the original 2-B/2-A thread before and since this one is better presented I agree with it.

 

[Caduz213]

Since I was part of the original 2-B/2-A thread before and since this one is better presented I agree with it.

Everyone but Pain agrees with the topic. Even two employees agreed.The best thing to do at this point is to mark the same employees or others to assess this.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Everyone but Pain agrees with the topic. Even two employees agreed.The best thing to do at this point is to mark the same employees or others to assess this.

I'm waiting for that and see how it goes

 

[Tatsumi504]

Yes it has the power to help her limit the future to the one she wants out of all the possibilities she may see, and again "this in turn are the shapes of the world" is at vague as it gets especially given the context. Also it said "the whole crystal" not that each future she sees.
And the context been that the moment the crystal decides something that's what will happen in the world, trying to go against it, is trying to go against the whole world.
Its not about just the quotes the contexts in which they are made matter

In what way is it vague? It literally says "Kandaquizorte is the many futures of this world achoosingbe equal to the shape of the world".
The context isn't the crystal deciding anything, its nafta limiting everything to a future of her choosing, the crystal is simply a means to utilize the order of the future the same way militia and avernyu uses the moon of creation and the sun of destruction as a means to utilize the order of creation and destruction.

You did not read what I wrote, try reading.it again as this is vastly different from what I said.
And also what you describe is not reality warping but probability manipulation.
Reality warping will be her turning the meteor to saw dust.

No, the meteor would literally seize to be there which is reality warping.

Glad you said this. So where is your proof that when she released the spear, there was a world that anos dodged it but it did not Impale him?

Because he says it himself? The proof is literally there. He has already grabbed the seat yet nafta limited everything to a future where he didn't grab it and such a future exist 1 in every billion times.
If you know probability manipulation picks an event and discards the other you should know that what nafta does isn't probability manipulation as both events physically exists.
Whenever probability manipulation has been used in the series to make contradictory events happen, the second event only exists as a possibility(abstract existence) that can't be seen with the normal eye and can't be interested with normally.

In other words, the scenario where Anos got stabbed by the spear, he would've had one spear caught in his hand while a spear of possibilities should have impaled him. NAFTA doesn't do this and reality just warps into that future.

You're contradicting many events and mechanics in the story which clearly refutes your entire point here.

 

[Hajun]

you missed it as usual, my point is Infinite anos do not exist.

Why cause you believe it?

 

[Hajun]

Seems like you have trouble reading

I have trouble? You just ignore the fact that the future are crystals and nafta just pick one of the crystal thier are already many crystals = already existing so the other future do exist physically already but in the form of crystal future already exist physically so easy to understand but you are making things on your own don't want to accept bro you better read the whole novel that way it will be easy to understand

 

[PrinceofPein]

You're contradicting many events and mechanics in the story which clearly refutes your entire point here.

No.it does not
But well let me call staffs to evaluate this thread

 

[Hajun]

In her domain all possible future already exist she just picks it how many time i have to say

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

@Pain_to12 I'm just going to mention that characters existing as literal possibilities is objectively a thing in the verse. Example from Graham's profile:

Abstract Existence (Type 1; Can embody and turn into reality all possibilities simultaneously via <Venejiara>[21]. Additionally, Graham is able to essentially resurrect himself via <Venejiara> by embodying "a possibility in which I have not been destroyed"[22])

Another example would be Anos lifting the sword of the almighty (lifting said sword means you get erased, so he used venejiara to both lift and not lift the sword at the same time, the 2nd action existing only as a possibility, doing two actions at the same time since each of them is theoretically possible). Thus, after lifting it he didn't get erased (as he was also not lifting it)

Or when Anos used Venejiara to both stay still on the ground and fly into the sky. Yes, he did both actions at the same time since Venejiara manifests both possibilities as true, as long as each of them is theoretically possible to happen.

<Venejiara>Wavy Body Probability Manifestation: Magic that enables the user to embody and turn into reality all possibilities simultaneously. The user's magic power fluctuates between possibilities, and so does their source and their body. For example; When using this magic the user embodies and turns into reality the possibility that they attack, and the possibility that they do not attack, all at once. Therefore, when using this magic, the user could be standing still yet attacking simultaneously.

So Nafta's thingies existing isn't that far-fetched even if we discard all arguments above.

 

[Deceived3596]

Agree with the additions, the contentions which have been brought up Pain aren't that convincing compared to what the OP and other supporters have been arguing for.

 

[PrinceofPein]

@Pain_to12 I'm just going to mention that characters existing as literal possibilities is objectively a thing in the verse. Example from Graham's profile:


Another example would be Anos lifting the sword of the almighty (lifting said sword means you get erased, so he used venejiara to both lift and not lift the sword at the same time, the 2nd action existing only as a possibility, doing two actions at the same time since each of them is theoretically possible). Thus, after lifting it he didn't get erased (as he was also not lifting it)

Or when Anos used Venejiara to both stay still on the ground and fly into the sky. Yes, he did both actions at the same time since Venejiara manifests both possibilities as true, as long as each of them is theoretically possible to happen.

So Nafta's thingies existing isn't that far-fetched even if we discard all arguments above.

This again
Let me quote them for you
For graham

turn into reality all possibilities

For anos

turns into reality the possibility

Nothing here says the possibilities exists as a reality(physically) already, if it does they won’t have to turn that possibility into reality. I mean this is simple, which has always been my argument, those possibilities are not reality until nafta limits them to just the one she picks.
This supports my claims not the other way around

 

[Caduz213]

@Pain_to12 I'm just going to mention that characters existing as literal possibilities is objectively a thing in the verse. Example from Graham's profile:


Another example would be Anos lifting the sword of the almighty (lifting said sword means you get erased, so he used venejiara to both lift and not lift the sword at the same time, the 2nd action existing only as a possibility, doing two actions at the same time since each of them is theoretically possible). Thus, after lifting it he didn't get erased (as he was also not lifting it)

Or when Anos used Venejiara to both stay still on the ground and fly into the sky. Yes, he did both actions at the same time since Venejiara manifests both possibilities as true, as long as each of them is theoretically possible to happen.

So Nafta's thingies existing isn't that far-fetched even if we discard all arguments above.

great argument

 

[Tatsumi504]

No.it does not
But well let me call staffs to evaluate this thread

If it doesn't then explain why the things nafta does induce physical change and don't just exist as possibilities.

They're are still other undeniable proof like Kandaquizorte being the physical manifestation of all futures and is equal to the size of the world.
Another contradiction you're creating is nafta effectively changing the past which is not possible for her.

Until you disprove at least these 3 things then your point is moot.

Yes, call staff cause we certainly need them.

 

[Glis]

Cap, will like to see the scans, thank you.

Chapter 310


「未来神の秩序は、未来を司る秩序。ナフタの存在そのものが、未来の秩序を保っている。ゆえに、ナフタの神眼めにも盲点があります。ナフタが見ることのできない現在は、それより以前の時間にいるナフタにも、未来として映りません」

　ナフタが厳かな声で言う。

「すなわち、ナフタが存在しない未来は、ナフタが存在する未来とは確かに異なる。そして、この神眼には映りません」


"The order of the god of the future is the order that governs the future. Nafta's very existence preserves the order of the future. Hence, there is a blind spot in Naphta's divine eye. The present, which Nafta cannot see, is not seen as the future, even by Nafta, who is in earlier time.
　
Naphtah's voice was stern.

"The future in which Nafta does not exist is certainly different from a future in which she does exist. And it's not reflected in this divine eye."

 

[Tatsumi504]

This again
Let me quote them for you
For graham

For anos


Nothing here says the possibilities exists as a reality(physically) already, if it does they won’t have to turn that possibility into reality. I mean this is simple, which has always been my argument, those possibilities are not reality until nafta limits them to just the one she picks.
This supports my claims not the other way around

No, it doesn't support your claims, it refutes them. Anos and graham turn possibilities into reality and those possibilities that are turned into reality still only exist as possibilities (abstract existences)
If the possibilities nafta picks don't exist then they shouldn't have any physical form at all.

Graham embodies the possibility that he wasn't destroyed and remains as only a possibility (abstract existence). This abstract existence cannot even be seen with the normal eyes.

Nafta limits the future to a possibility that she/ the world wasn't destroyed and both her/ the world exist as a bonafied physical thing that can be seen and interacted with normally after the destruction. Can you see the difference here?
Conclusion= graham's possibilities don't exist, nafta's possibilities do exist.

Furthermore probability manipulation would make it so that the other event didn't happen which is effectively changing the past and is impossible except you are someone like Anos, arcana, eques, graham, venuzdonor or can control the order of cause and effect.

Everything you're suggesting goes against already established rules and mechanics.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Chapter 310


「未来神の秩序は、未来を司る秩序。ナフタの存在そのものが、未来の秩序を保っている。ゆえに、ナフタの神眼めにも盲点があります。ナフタが見ることのできない現在は、それより以前の時間にいるナフタにも、未来として映りません」

　ナフタが厳かな声で言う。

「すなわち、ナフタが存在しない未来は、ナフタが存在する未来とは確かに異なる。そして、この神眼には映りません」


"The order of the god of the future is the order that governs the future. Nafta's very existence preserves the order of the future. Hence, there is a blind spot in Naphta's divine eye. The present, which Nafta cannot see, is not seen as the future, even by Nafta, who is in earlier time.
　
Naphtah's voice was stern.

"The future in which Nafta does not exist is certainly different from a future in which she does exist. And it's not reflected in this divine eye."

Essentially saying nafta cannot see any future she doesn't exist in.

 

[Dog3352]

this in turn are the shapes of the world" is at vague as it gets especially given the context. Also it said "the whole crystal" not that each future she sees.

Well, aside from this being the only quote we have, it's certainly not vague, Naphtha literally says that crystals are shaped like the world.

Nothing here says the possibilities exists as a reality(physically) already, if it does they won’t have to turn that possibility into reality. I mean this is simple, which has always been my argument, those possibilities are not reality until nafta limits them to just the one she picks.

So crystals don't exist?

 

[Hajun]

The infinite number of future is already being materialized/realized and constructed by order​

"God is order. The agent will be the same. The many futures seen by the future god Nafta, are constructed according to that order. No matter how much power she has, an orderly god cannot overturn an orderly future." Maou Gakuin WN CHP: 295

"There is no such thing. If there is even one future where we can fly, that future will materialized, but there is no future where you can fly in this tree crown celestial sphere..."

"There is no single future is decided. With the love of Nafta, there are infinite possibilities, and people hold hope in their hearts and seize a better future. Dragon Knights, don't be afraid" . . . Maou Gakuin WN CHP: 465

 

[Hajun]

Forgot to read this I guess

 

[Sharkass]

Woah this thread is still alive

 

[Caduz213]

Just the fact that Anos Needed to use world-destroying magic to destroy all the possibilities of the crystal, prove that these world futures physically exist.If they were just a possibility and not physical structures, I believe that only <Venejiara> would be enough to stop the crystal. Correct me if I'm wrong about something.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Just the fact that Anos Needed to use world-destroying magic to destroy all the possibilities of the crystal, prove that these world futures physically exist.If they were just a possibility and not physical structures, I believe that only <Venejiara> would be enough to stop the crystal. Correct me if I'm wrong about something.

No, venejiara won't have been enough. That's your headcanon but anos literally destroys all futures with EGA and nafta had to limit it because it would have reached the real world is undisputable