PrinceofPein
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If you want him to have logic manipulation, create the page and get it accepted, but as far as we do not have that, this is still Law manipulation and the many applications of it.
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I think you are talking about verse specific page?If you want him to have logic manipulation, create the page and get it accepted, but as far as we do not have that, this is still Law manipulation and the many applications of it.
This basically amounts to “he didn’t say it this specific way therefore it HAS to be its own separate ability.” This kind of reasoning is very flawed because it basically amounts to attempting to read someone’s mind.Read his reply again. He said 'Law Manipulation, probably,' indicating, according to him, that Law Manipulation might fit the criteria because the wiki lacks the page. He never once implied or stated something to support your interpretation; he literally just suggested the closest form of the ability, that's all.
If what you're saying is true, DT would say,
"Hey, that's just law manipulation; don't wank it as logic."
"Why are you calling it logic manipulation? It's just law manipulation."
"It's just law manipulation, bruh, not logic manipulation. Just list it as law manipulation.
Yogiri means nothing to me. I don’t know this series, nor do I care for this whataboutism.We literally have death manipulation > anything in the verse of ID for Yogiri
Similar to that case Logic > Anything in Maou Gakuin.
Order encompasses Laws, Fate and concepts. Logic is treated as something different that than even different than non existent, Acausality and TD in the verse.
Yes removing that will cause misunderstanding.
I mean you could but he’s currently on break from VSBW due to work-related stuff, so we wouldn’t get an answer for a month or soWhy not just ask DT?
of course... man, that just makes this more difficultI mean you could but he’s currently on break from VSBW due to work-related stuff, so we wouldn’t get an answer for a month or so
No one is attempting to read someone else's mind. DT's first response explicitly stated how logic manipulation works, and he never suggested to that person it's law manipulation, so logic and laws are not the same. He specifically explained how logic manipulation works instead of calling it law manipulation.This basically amounts to “he didn’t say it this specific way therefore it HAS to be its own separate ability.” This kind of reasoning is very flawed because it basically amounts to attempting to read someone’s mind.
You are the same guy who said you don't need to know the series the understand the context.Yogiri means nothing to me. I don’t know this series, nor do I care for this whataboutism.
So you are accepting Logic > Law in the verse?As for the rest, affecting these other things falls into separate abilities (Fate Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, etc.) as has already been done on Venuzdonoa’s profile. But directly interacting with logic itself is a Law Manipulation ability. A more potent one than standard Law Manipulation, given that Logic > Laws, but certainly not a new ability.
What would you call affecting both law and logic manipulation in the verse? Law Manipulation and Law manipulation? With all due respect, isn't that dumb?For example, affecting something that involves both logic and fate would be both Law Manipulation and Fate Manipulation. Doing one thing can encompass multiple abilities.
Acausality (Type 4; Explanation of the ability here)When you got characters who can pretty much neg acausals with type 4 yet someone manages to resist or destroy that what else would you call it-.
I was referring to the stuff about higher levels of acausality type 4, but that's not really the point of this thread right now so i'll keep on the main point-.Acausality (Type 4; Explanation of the ability here)
Yes, because it's not his job to research your own franchise to understand what's being argued on the pages. It's almost like the verse pages exist to explain how the verse functions to those who don't know the series in the first place. If you can't argue beyond "you don't know the verse" then you have no argument here because it's your responsibility to explain why logic manipulation is supposed to be very different from law hax in the verse, and so far I've seen nothing that proves such a thing.You are the same guy who said you don't need to know the series the understand the context.
Literally this.@EldemadeDityjon
Yes, because it's not his job to research your own franchise to understand what's being argued on the pages. It's almost like the verse pages exist to explain how the verse functions to those who don't know the series in the first place. If you can't argue beyond "you don't know the verse" then you have no argument here because it's your responsibility to explain why logic manipulation is supposed to be very different from law hax in the verse, and so far I've seen nothing that proves such a thing.
It's not a false equivalence. Physics and mathematics easily fall under law manipulation the only difference being it's a more common ability i.e we have more users that manipulate physics, mathematics directly.This is a false equivalence and a half and you know it. Already off to a bad start
I'm not accusing you of anything I'm simply stating a fact though "twisting" does sound accusatory, I apologize for that.He didn’t say that. He just said “Law Manipulation, probably.” The whole “twisting” accusation is also one I could easily reverse onto you, but you don’t see me taking that approach, do you?
The use of examples does not constitute whataboutism for one. On the topic of false accusations, we didn't index this as a unique ability, it wouldn't link back to law manipulation otherwise. Same thing I said before, all powers also fall under reality warping so why don't we axe all pages, keep only reality warping and have the justification on profiles point to what application of reality warping it is? This is a genuine question since the problem here is according to our standards, manipulation of logic falls under law manipulation. On that same note, what is the difference between physics and mathematics manipulation compared to logic manipulation that qualifies tge former two to have their own pages when all fall under law? You previously gave the answer which is the number of users, another answer is the mechanics or effect of the ability such as physics, math users affecting only those things general or specific but not manipulating laws as a whole.Whataboutism aside, the point is that you’ve indexed this as some completely unique ability that nothing else has or anything, when it very neatly falls into an existing ability that many characters have: Law Manipulation.
Now this is false equivalence. Pain tolerance isn't an ability not because it's just stamina but because it isn't an ability at all. This is nowhere near the same as manipulating logic to give any of the effects we index as powers and abilities.To put it into perspective, I’ll use another example of this I see more frequently: “Pain Tolerance” as an ability. This is made up. It’s literally just Stamina feats, so we shouldn’t be creating something out of the blue like this.
It isn't funny actually. The difference between verse specific powers and logic manipulation is the former is an amalgamation and verse specific the latter isn't an amalgamation and neither is it verse specific.Funny you say that considering that’s how we treated these for the longest time. Even then, this is a bad comparison, as these fall under verse-specific abilities. As such, they’re more like amalgamations of abilities on our site shared by a number of characters. Conversely, this “Logic Manipulation” is treated as some site-wide ability rather than a verse-specific thing like Chakra or Ki - one that no one else has at all.
You didn't answer my question. Do you know anyway to manipulate laws to do any of those things yes/no?I mean, just replace “law” with “logic” and I can ask you the same questions. And your answers would pretty much be my answers, except with “logic” replaced with “law.” These two terms are fundamentally similar in the sense of both describing fundamental truths of the world. MGK treating “logic” as superior to “law” would simply mean that affecting the former is a more potent Law Manipulation than affecting the latter.
They're as both are something specific that fall under law manipulation just like logic manipulation. We're talking about different applications so there's nothing wrong in bringing up something that falls under the same topic.Physics and Mathematics Manipulation aren’t even relevant here, and you’re free to have that opinion anyway.
Clover, you're not gonna Gaslight me into thinking I did something I didn't. I have a history of making use of poor choice words on this wiki, it isn't something new, get used to it. I'm sure using "gaslight" on my previous sentence is equally poor but at the moment I can't think of anything better. Also notice how I wrote "downplay/incorrectly index". I gave an alternative to what I tried to convey due to my habit but you chose to simply concentrate on "downplay".Really, what concerns me most is how you’ve approached this thread. Your very first response comes with things like “twisting words” and “downplaying,” which frankly tells me all I need to know about how you’ve chosen to approach this.
Once again, I did nothing wrong, you're simply choosing to concentrate on the negative aspect of how I articulate my thoughts though you don't know about my habit so I don't fault you for it.It’s precisely this reason why I hesitated to post this thread…
I'm gonna be saying this repeatedly, aren't I...? This is just Law Manipulation. "Logic" gets reduced to null. Y'know, logic. A fundamental truth of the world. What exactly makes this so special?
Reason not existing in the face of Venezdunoa is pretty much in the same camp as the first point. Reason is a fundamental truth and concept of the world, so I'm not sure how this helps at all. Simply mentioning "logic" once doesn't help at all, given that logical truths are encompassed by Law Manipulation, leading us into... "Dodging an attack should mean you dodged it." This is a fundamental truth of the world, and as such, affecting this truth such that dodging an attack doesn't actually mean you dodged it is simply affecting a fundamental truth. Case in point, this is Law Manipulation. Nothing more. "Not being slashed means you weren't slashed." This is, again, a fundamental truth of the world. This is literally the same predicament as before, and as such is simply Law Manipulation.
There is more than a single mention of "logic", and there is even more mention of "Reason" which is what equates to logic. You treat "Logic" as if it were a concept equal to Law or something like a more powerful "Law Manip", first of all, at no point in the series is it ever equated or mentioned that Logic/Reason is a derivative of order or that they share similarities conceptually.And well... That's about it as far as Venuzdonoa's justification on its profile goes. However, there's some more claims I've seen about Venuzdonoa's "Logic Manipulation" that apparently make it so special, which I'd like to cover as well.
- "Venuzdonoa can destroy logic (as mentioned before), and logic holds superiority over order since destroying logic also destroys order. Order is also equivalent to laws and providences, all of which Venuzdonoa can destroy"
- The problem here is that this assumes this is something completely special rather than just being... a more potent form of Law Manipulation. The fact of the matter is that logic is a fundamental truth, and as such, can be affected by Law Manipulation. Even if the verse treats logic as superior to the likes of order and laws, that just means it's a more potent form of Law Manipulation because logic is still a fundamental truth.
The ability proposed at that time was Resistance Negation, I accepted Higher degree of Law Manip because Deagon didn't want to keep arguing and the rest of the staff didn't give an evaluation so it was a temporary solution to get out of that CRT,"Venuzdonoa can destroy logic that even encompasses laws and is thus above them, which indicates it's fundamentally different"
- My response to this is the same as what came before: this is not the case. This simply makes it a more potent form of Law Manipulation. In fact, Venuzdonoa's profile seems to acknowledge this, as overriding logic is simply listed on its profile as "higher degree of Law Manipulation." This is pretty much a self-admittance to the fact that affecting logic is, in fact, Law Manipulation to a higher degree. And that's all it is, really.
That was my only solution after asking DT what to do if we don't have the Logic Manipulation ability then the alternative was link Law Manip instead so that's not an argument.
- It also doesn't help that the "Logic Manipulation" literally links to Law Manipulation when clicked on.
You will ask why is this scan relevant if Venuzdonoa is not directly mentioned? Venuzdonoa gained the ability to destroy reason because apart from the order of destruction that was already capable of destroying the other orders, this one was created based Anos' Chaotic Eyes that are capable of destroying reason, thanks to this it was converted into the Reason Destroying Sworld or as J-Novels calls it Abolisher of Reason."Before my eyes, everything will perish. Order, reason, and you, Eques." (Anos)
"I'm saying I destroyed the reason of Fate turns for the sake of the world [Beld Rase Femblem]." (Anos)
"You who determined fate, and I who destroyed reason. The two powers were contradictory. Therefore I won." (Anos)
If there's a contradiction between the [Magic Eye of Chaotic Destruction] and the reason that must be destroyed, I will win unilaterally.
It's that simple.
Compared to the reason which makes a single event certainly happen, it's far more advantageous for the [Magic Eye of Chaotic Destruction] which makes this event never happen.
This makes sense to me.Put me on disagree. There are several things that are being overlooked here.
There is more than a single mention of "logic", and there is even more mention of "Reason" which is what equates to logic. You treat "Logic" as if it were a concept equal to Law or something like a more powerful "Law Manip", first of all, at no point in the series is it ever equated or mentioned that Logic/Reason is a derivative of order or that they share similarities conceptually.
In the verse the only Law that exists are those that the gods with their order exercise, the derivatives of the ability would be minor abilities of the order or that are based on the magical power, either the magical eyes or abilities that dictate certain law. What is known as Higher Degree of Law Manip in verse is simply the Hierarchy of order i.e All gods by default have base resistance to the order of other gods but the more important the role of the god then the stronger their order will be, that is what we could call a higher power of Law & Cm or even Layers since as I mentioned, all gods possess resistance to order and are hierarchically ranked.
The ability proposed at that time was Resistance Negation, I accepted Higher degree of Law Manip because Deagon didn't want to keep arguing and the rest of the staff didn't give an evaluation so it was a temporary solution to get out of that CRT,besides I was only a Content Mod at that time and I didn't even have voting rights so my disagreement was never taken into account.After that i just forgot to fix it.
That was my only solution after asking DT what to do if we don't have the Logic Manipulation ability then the alternative was link Law Manip instead so that's not an argument.
Back to the main point, as I said, reason cannot be equated with law or order, since order is the origin of law itself, which has no relation with Reason/Logic.
On many occasions it has been shown that the characters (mainly Anos) talk specifically about destroying reason on too many occasions and do not classify it as something similar to order or law.
As we know the current novel is in Volume 5 so we don't have many more mentions of reason, the most important ones which I remember are in V8 (Anos vs Graham, Venuzdonoa destroying reason vs Befengunuzdoma disorting the reality, graham's nothingness which has no reason and order) V10 (Eques vs Anos' MEoCD destroying reason and order) and a bunch of other mentions that are made throughout the series.
Here a WN scan verified by 2 of our TL helper team with some mentions of it.
You will ask why is this scan relevant if Venuzdonoa is not directly mentioned? Venuzdonoa gained the ability to destroy reason because apart from the order of destruction that was already capable of destroying the other orders, this one was created based Anos' Chaotic Eyes that are capable of destroying reason, thanks to this it was converted into the Reason Destroying Sworld or as J-Novels calls it Abolisher of Reason.
To conclude.
- The series has given a clear indication that reason/logic is something separate from order, reason is neither a law nor a concept, the only thing that is a law is order and the only thing that is a concept is order and source.
- The same translation never mixes nor mentions that they are the same thing, reason is mentioned as reason and order as order, the only 2 things capable of destroying reason are Venuzdonoa and MEoCD. The law is created on the basis of order and reason not being order cannot be classified as the same thing.
- There are still more volumes to be translated where there are many more mentions of the logic itself, but we are working with what we can for the moment.
- Law Manipulation|Logic Manipulation]] is used as an alternative since DT said that the ability wouldn't be created due to the fact that there are very few users of it and that for the moment Law Manipulation is the ability that could be most similar but that does not demerit that the ability is not Logic Manipulation, just that we don't have enought users for it to be an official page.
- It is useless to remove this (the only reason would be that there are not many mentions of it at the moment, but I think it wouldn't do much harm to wait for the next volumes than to make a thread to add something obvious again) because I will add it back anyway, though whether I prefer to wait for more volumes to be translated is up to me.
Anyway, that was my 2 cents, I wrote this as a raw text without thinking much since it's 5 am here and I have work most of March so cya.
So is this what the problem is? This thread was made just because no other verse can counter it. We couldn't make the page before because of "too few users" but now its changed to "no verse currently can counter it"?I do not see enough to make logic manipulation be its own power that no other verse can counter since no other verse has it.
I have no issue with a page for logic manip.So is this what the problem is? This thread was made just because no other verse can counter it. We couldn't make the page before because of "too few users" but now its changed to "no verse currently can counter it"?
But there were explanations, the justifications provided anything one could ever need. I guess we'll just have to concentrate on making it a standard P&A number of users be damnedI have no issue with a page for logic manip.
Heck, that would be enough for me at least to accept it as its own power.
But on its own with no explanation how it differs from standard P&A, I find it invalid.
You say this when various pages that is basically the same with another exist. Fear Manipulation still exists because it's more common than general empathic manipulation, have more users that manipulate fear itself. Physics and mathematics manipulation are specific powers which according to this thread is covered by law manipulation so why exactly should they exist?There's no real reason for it to exist separately beyond maybe as a versus match thing from what I can gather.
I saw the justifications. They were good showcases of Law Manipulation. I dunno why the argument is even going on. I'm not saying the justifications don't exist. They're just being labelled as something beyond what they are.But there were explanations, the justifications provided anything one could ever need. I guess we'll just have to concentrate on making it a standard P&A number of users be damned
You say this when various pages that is basically the same with another exist. Fear Manipulation still exists because it's more common than general empathic manipulation, have more users that manipulate fear itself. Physics and mathematics manipulation are specific powers which according to this thread is covered by law manipulation so why exactly should they exist?
Y'all have failed to do one thing and that is prove logic is just law as a power. Power null via causality manipulation doesn't stop discredit the manipulation of causality. A power is indexed according to what it can do, effect it derives.
This power is manipulating logic directly not laws. Just as physics and maths is just one part of what we consider law, the same applies to logic. We don't give those who affect physics, maths directly law manipulation for this reason same applies to resistance (resisting physics and math manip ≠ resisting law manip, reverse also applies) yet y'all are going against procedure, trying to make the reverse apply in this case.
At this point I might just be done with this thread. Not only does it go against standard, it's trying to discredit an ability without actually discrediting what the ability is which boils down to "Yes this ability is X but I don't like that term, it can be encompassed by Y ability on a higher degree so it isn't actually X".
As it this thread possibly exists because no character resists this ability so reduce it to X ability the character resists. Funny thing is one of the arguments before this thread was that "Logic Manipulation is a subset of law manipulation hence is weaker and can be resisted by resistance to law manipulation" now it's "Logic manipulation is just some higher form of Law manipulation". This has got to be the height of pettiness for those who actually agreed solely for this reason and I feel sorry for clover who I believe didn't make this thread for that reason.
I'm just gonna bump this and say yet again, logic manip is just law manip, there is no difference between the two on a fundamental level, the only real difference one could argue is how they do thingsI mean (for our purposes) Laws=Axioms=Logic, mentions of reason are kinda funny cause logos which is the root word of logic means reason as in the literal "reason" of reality, why things are the way they are
All this just means is that laws, as the verse speaks of them, are more "potent" than the laws other verses would use, in a similar manner to type 2 concepts being more potent than type 3 concepts, and type 1 concepts being more potent than type 2 concepts
So I agree with the OP in that logic manip should just be listed as law manip, because that is just what it is, any specification beyond that can be explained in the profile with greater law manipulation or justifications or what have you
Who was talking about in the setting? Eseseso grievance is no character on the wiki resists it.That no character resists it in the setting is just a testament to its potency, nothing more. Or should I give Kratos Hope Manipulation, given no one in the setting (including a higher order being) can resist it?