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Major Zelda revisions

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DarkDragonMedeus said:
And again, Link still only learned some of the basics from Hero's Shade; advanced for soldier standards yes, but basic for Hero of Time standards still. But more important, he still doesn't scale from him till end game.
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It's not basic if you admit it's advanced for soldier standards and Hero's Shade views nothing of what he teaches as truly basic even mentioning if you messs up some of them you could die.
 
I don't consider everything Zelda Dungeon says word of law, but there are plenty of notable mistranslations and hyperbole's out there. Things that say Universe have always been rejected as hyperbole's otherwise everyone would have been 3-A or Tier 2 a long time ago. A lot of people are trying to call Hyrule a universe rather than a planet/country based on similar interpretations.

And again, he means dangerous for the Hero of Twilight at the time. It doesn't change the fact that the temple bosses are Tier 6 while only Zant and Ganondorf are Tier 5, where Link is only Tier 5 once he finishes his training completely so that he's ready to tackle the last two dungeons.
 
What? That directly says "parallel universe" how in the world is that a hyperbole? The onus would fall on you to prove this is a mistranslation. It wasn't rejected because it's a universe it was rejected because most other zelda parallel places are referred to as "dimensions or worlds"(that's still 3-A imo but that's not the topic). Except this is Surbrosia not Hyrule, I don't know why your brought up Hyrule whent hat wawsn't even the topic I was going by.

You mean tier 6 due to a stupidly casual feat of argorok roaring? Or the casual feat of ALTTP Link using the ether medallion?
 
Surbrosia is similar to Termina in where Link travels there via a pit of some sort. Termina also has similar statements and not really any proof of being a Universe.

Tier 6 from both, obviously, Temple bosses can't scale from End Game bosses because that's reverse power scaling. And as mentioned above, Link from each game gradually gets stronger from their journeys or from having certain weapons in their possession.
 
Ok, again. Termina, Dark World and Lorule are called parallel worlds/dimensions of Hyrule, not universes. Even then Termina is bare minimum a 4-A world but that's out of topic. Surbrosia is outright called an alternate universe. Not a "world", "dimension" or whatever. It's called a universe.

These were rhetorical questions. Both of the tier 6 feats are stupidly casual from the bosses so they aren't dead locked at tier 6.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Surbrosia is similar to Termina in where Link travels there via a pit of some sort.
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I didn't even notice this. Link never travels to Surbrosia via a pit, it's always via a portal. Where did you get "pit" from?
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
These were rhetorical questions. Both of the tier 6 feats are stupidly casual from the bosses so they aren't dead locked at tier 6.
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Just because Argorok has a casual 6-C feat doesn't mean they are tier 5 or higher.

For the Termina bosses which should not scale to the ones of the regular world, i'm researching if Majora sealed the giants or were prevented to awake by the bosses.

Note: Triforce and Oblivion responsed about this.
 
Yeah it was Majora

Anyway ill let this thread continue I just wanted to say I found something BIG "Universal" big on the Triforce,Sacred Realm and Ganons wish on Hyrule Historia that's essentially undeniable and would like input when I post it thx ;)
 
Dark649 said:
Just because Argorok has a casual 6-C feat doesn't mean they are tier 5 or higher.

For the Termina bosses which should not scale to the ones of the regular world, i'm researching if Majora sealed the giants or were prevented to awake by the bosses.

Note: Triforce and Oblivion responsed about this.
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Can you quote where I said they were tier 5 or higher due to Argorok having a casual 6-C feat? I feel lots of people are misunderstanding when I'm saying "it's a casual feat" I'm pointing out that doesn't deadlock you at that tier so they Link fighting the boss at that time might still be comparable to end game bosses and it isn't a lower feat.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Actually, in the same scene where you said Zant stomped Lanaryu and while Wolf Link was unconscious, a weakened Midna was able to help Lanaryu back up, who in turn reversed Zant's powers and scared him away. So that's a one-sided attempt of a refute right there.
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You're joking, right? This didn't happen whatsoever and is just more proof to doubt your credibility anything Twilight Princess related. First you said Link had absolutely no training from the Hero's Shade, then you implied the Light Spirits would all stomp Zant, now you're saying that Midna controlled Lanayru, helped him back up, they both destroyed Zant, and made him pull a Christmas Carol Joker to make him leave. None of that ever happened at all. And if we really go the route of "that was just your interpretation," I'm going to quote straight from the wiki yet again here.

"When Zant attacks Midna and Link at Lanayru's spring after they find the last Fused Shadow, Lanayru appears and attempts to attack Zant, but is knocked back. Zant then magically forces Lanayru to shine its light on Midna, gravely injuring her." - https://zelda.gamepedia.com/Lanayru_(Spirit)#Biography

It's the complete other way around from what you were trying to say. So in short, you completely manipulated a scene that happened in Twilight Princess in hopes of getting a falsehood accepted, or you just aren't as knowledgeable as you think you are, it's quite literally that simple.

Lanaryu was still on his own, and Light Spirits are portrayed as being astronomically stronger when together as seen during the battle with Ganon. Anyway, stunning Ganondorf would still be threatening in a technical sense. And we didn't mean to say that Zelda's Light Arrows are quite on par with Ganon, only that they are within the same Tier as him and Zant.
I'm going to quote a section straight from Ganondorf's own page regarding the weaknesses he has to prove a point here.

"Weaknesses: In his weakened/incomplete state, he is considerably less resilient, possessing no special defense against non-holy attacks, hence, Link was able to defeat him without such a weapon. | Sacred or holy weapons/magic, such as the Master Sword, are highly effective against him. Can sometimes be arrogant or overconfident. | Sacred or holy weapons/magic, such as the Master Sword, are highly effective against him. Can sometimes be arrogant or overconfident." - https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ganondorf

As I said, the only reason they remotely harm him is because it's exploiting a weakness he has. We don't treat exploiting a weakness/point of vulnerability as scaling to said person, that's part of the reason Sonic, Shadow, and Silver weren't initially scaled to Solaris. These are remote double standards otherwise because it's quite clear they don't scale.

Also, again, look at examples such as the The Elder Gods from Mortal Kombat; they got casual Low 6-B feats and despite that, they were able to defeat a Low 2-C character with their combined might. Light Spirits are the same scenario.
Why would this be the case? It takes three of them to take down the Intelopers originally, why do we assume that they are suddenly such a jump ahead? It took the three of them to take down what would eventually become the Twili race, this was especially before Zant practically got the Ganon amp who had the Triforce of Power. Literally even then, Zant again sent normal minions to take care of them, more goes against them remotely scaling at all, especially when the "combined" notion of them being that strong isn't remotely supported liking you're trying to propogate.

You'd have to ask Dark649 about the Light Force scaling, some of us a while back did propose a downgrade for the Minish Cap cast, but he was the one said they were fair game with the details provided.
That doesn't demean what I said at all, there's never actually a statement saying that a single Triforce piece is comparable to the Light Force. That's my gripe with it, meaning it's still more likely that even a single Triforce piece would be above it.

I've played through Twilight Princess multiple times; including a 100% and a three heart challenge. Anyway, Link has only had basic training from Hero's shade; he did not complete his training. And as mentioned above, Link doesn't officially become as strong as the main villains of various Zelda games until the end game; his power gradually grows as the story progresses. But that's beside the point.
You realize I never remotely denied Link getting stronger EoG, right? You brought up Link for practically no reason, I only brought it up because it's quite clear Lanayru is fodder to someone like Zant when it come down to it. Also, you're altering your statement here. Originally it went from, "Link was also a lot weaker back than as he didn't have Master Sword or training from Hero's Shade," to, "Link has only had basic training from Hero's shade; he did not complete his training." There's a difference between the two, hence why I have reasonable skepticism on you claiming you've played Twilight Princess as you say.

There's still little to no validity to Zant's supposed High 4-C feat other than him merely teleporting Link to either the places themselves or mirror locations resembling those locations. Scaling from in depth lore or mentioning that literal avatars are weaker than the original god forms is legit scaling. ToP Ganon or ToW Zelda still lack the feats to compare to their true forms.
Why would we assume he teleported Link? There seems to be more going against such a notion as indicated above. Anyways, such things do not apply to them when empowered by Triforce pieces. I can agree Ganondorf like from OoT is obviously not superior to Demise, but the idea that Ganondorf with the Triforce of Power is completely unsupported and has a pure headcanon as the sole justification on why it's wrong. The Burden of Proof would be on you to objectively prove they don't scale in any comparable way, not for you to demand that it is shown that they are comparable.

Even if we play a huge Devil's Advocate here, Hylia and Demise are already listed as "At least High 4-C". They would literally only get a solid High 4-C feat if the Zant thing is to be accepted, the "At least" rating here would literally already imply they'd be above such if you have such a problem accepting anything outside of your own view because Demise's own feat was done uber casually. Once again, we have no actual reason not to put them at High 4-C, your arguments against it are either weak or make no difference with the current scaling we go by whatsoever.

And again, Zant has never shown to create a Sun, and just because the pots that contains healing hearts or the water is real, doesn't mean the sky is real. Not to mention healing hearts are more so game mechanics. Also, it is loosely stated that the Twilight Realm is around the same size as Hyrule is. It doesn't even have a real sun and instead just has two little tiny orbs that generate light; and as others said, it they would at best be High 6-A since the orbs or Twilight Realms "Sun" lacks any calcs higher than that.
This would be up for you to objectively disprove. You're acknowledging the pots are tangible, same with the water as well, but you are saying for some reason the sky is the odd one out? To quote Occam's Razor, "The principle states that one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed." You are taking WAY too many assumptions here, assuming that Zant has Illusion Creation on this scale which he has never shown, trying to say the sky is an illusion despite being proven everything else is real, and you're trying to say "it's two orbs in the sky at best." There's far more aligning to assume an actual High 4-C feat, you seem to be incredibly against this despite the presumptions to assume it has wrong are completely flawed and so skeptical that we might as well give any pocket dimension feat the same treatment and say, "Well we can't assume it's actually a normal sized star until they give a description of how a star works within the dimension!1!1!1!1!"
 
I was once again tired from a long day at work when I wrote that and I didn't have the full memory of the scene. When I rewatched it and saw the details, I crossed it out for that reason; so it's best not to address that bit. And it was already addressed about Lanaryu Vs Zant bit, so no need for repeated derailment. And the strawmanned conspiracy theories are unnecessary; only going to be informative, not to be offensive, but plenty of users have been banned for showing that kind of attitude towards the staff @Inverted Tempest.

I was talking to Lightning and Giver, not you for those parts about Hero Shade. But still, curb stomping Tier 6 characters doesn't automatically mean Tier 4 is legit. Temple Bosses simply don't have any showings of being any higher than Tier 6, and Link beats them rather handley; but he's still not officially Tier 5 till close to end game for other reasons mentioned. The Solaris thread is a derailment and shouldn't be brought up here, but that one also has other issues; not just the holy weakness stuff.

And 4 Spirits fused together, or spirits being reawakened causes numerous Twilight minions to be incinerated. Then again, a lot of things in Zelda are inconsistent, but that's because writers don't really care about power scaling and that's places like here exists to elaborate.

Also, using an assumption to counter an what you consider an assumption isn't really the best approach. Where actually do see the Sol Orbs up close; they're much smaller than an actual sun and don't appear to generate anywhere near as much heat or force as the sun. And yet, they're the closest things in the Twilight Realm to be considered stars or suns. But as mentioned above, it lacks any sort of concrete evidence to be a real sun. They're just solid orbs that generate light similar to sunlight; but not equal to a sun's GBE.

Anyway, this thread is getting too chaotic. And I'm pretty sure both sides are getting tired of arguing for Zant's Tier 4 rating. So I believe it's best to move on from that and go back to the credibility of Ganondorf flipping the Earth in Wind Waker.
 
Why would we need to go back to the credibility of Ganondorf's flipping Earth feat just because one side refuses to agree with the evidence presented? What kind of sense does this make?
 
Because one, there was no "Evidence", two there was actual "Evidence" to say otherwise, three, it isn't about "sides." It's about what's the most logically reasonable observation. People keep saying, "It's called a sun so it must be a real sun" while lacking any scientific details or comparisons to an actual sun. Where as we did provide scientific details to explain that the sol orbs aren't stars. More importantly, none of the knowledgeable staff members agree with Tier 4 Zant. Not saying staff members are automatically obsolete over normal users, but it needs to be considered that our professional reasoning skills are what got us promoted to staff in the first place. We can't just upgrade characters or verses based something too vague; especially if appeal to popularity or fan service are the motivations behind it.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
More importantly, none of the knowledgeable staff members agree with Tier 4 Zant. Not saying staff members are automatically obsolete over normal users, but it needs to be considered that our professional reasoning skills are what got us promoted to staff in the first place. We can't just upgrade characters or verses based something too vague; especially if appeal to popularity or fan service are the motivations behind it.
Click to expand...
Using stuff unsupported by the verse, debatable at best and misconceptions. As has been debated the entire thread.

"Fanservice"

Quite a disrespectful thing to state at this point, when they have gathered evidence from within the lore and game to support their position.
 
Dark649 also posted a scan that contradicts the assumptions about what Zant does; so that's what actual "Gathered evidence" is. The Lore still said absolutely nothing about Zant creating the sun though. it is fan service if people are literally just begging for the upgrade to be made at this point; it's not a offensive word. It isn't the same as the constant shouting, cussing, and condescending insults that came from Inverted Tempest for instance.
 
Or maybe they believe the reasons for going against it haven't been satisfactory nor valid enough (which I outright agree with). They clearly have given reason beyond "just do it please". And debated said reasons. To state otherwise is disrespectful to the time spent on debating it.

Whether the dimension warp is valid or not (still neutral), there is still a possible scaling to a smilar feat. That feat is Demise's, as there is still nothing to support him being stronger than ToP!Ganon except an unknown thing and misconceptions, with some stuff outright unsupported (still waiting for that scan of the light spirits stronger when combined).
 
There reasonings haven't been supported to much and so far have pretty much been all quantity and little to no quality. And again, circular spamming the same arguments over and over again isn't going to get anywhere at all period. And we already addressed the concern for Demise; they lack any feats or context comparing Zant or ToP Ganon on Demise's level.

And that's already been explained; the Light Spirits formed into the Bow of Light; which is what gives Zelda the power to give significant Damage to Ganon. Before one says, "Oh that's because of Ganon's weakness to holy magic". By that, Link Wielding the Master Sword wouldn't scale due to Ordon Sword among other weapons doing 0 damage to Ganondorf as well and being in the same boat as the Bow of Light. And saying it only stunned him and not actually hurt him is more game mechanics; Ganon still reacts in a way that he expresses pain same way with Master Sword or Light Arrows.

But, Link does scale since he can still wrestle Ganondorf and would at least have the same striking strength. Ganondorf or many other villains in the Zelda universe could technically be seen as Stone Walls who are simply more susceptible to Light/Holy Magic. ToP Ganondorf's durability is Dwarf Star level regardless of Holy attacks or not; just to an even higher degree against non holy attacks. It's also similar to how Shazam or Black Adam are 4-B despite magic being Superman's weakness.

And I don't need to explain this, but Light Spirits are way below Hylia for the elaborate lore statements behind Hylia and the Light Force, ect.
 
We know for a fact Link can't hurt Ganon without Master Sword, actually. Wind Waker. If the MS doesn't have "the light that repels evil", he cannot do damage to him. And in that same game, Ganon shows complete superiority to Link physically, two shotting him outright (although it was kind of a sucker punch, but still).

Demise, like wise, doesn't have anything above ToP!Ganon.

Light Force thing is unknown at best imo.

Edit: Should ellaborate on why I think is unknown. Was it stated anywhere that the Light Spirits are made from "the light force"? While it seems obvious they should, given how contradictory Zelda games are between each other, this should be clearly defined.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
We know for a fact Link can't hurt Ganon without Master Sword, actually. Wind Waker. If the MS doesn't have "the light that repels evil", he cannot do damage to him. And in that same game, Ganon shows complete superiority to Link physically, two shotting him outright (although it was kind of a sucker punch, but still).
Demise, like wise, doesn't have anything above ToP!Ganon.

Light Force thing is unknown at best imo.

Edit: Should ellaborate on why I think is unknown. Was it stated anywhere that the Light Spirits are made from "the light force"? While it seems obvious they should, given how contradictory Zelda games are between each other, this should be clearly defined.
Click to expand...
He can hurt him just fine without the Master Sword in the orignal Legend of Zelda and Ocarina of Time. Saying Demise doesn't have anything above ToP Ganon while true (Unless the High 4-C for Zant is decided to not be a legit tier 4 feat, in which case he'd have a much higher feat above anything Ganon has shown) but it goes both ways. We have no comparisons to make between ToP Ganon and Demise, all we know is that Demise is weaker than the completed Triforce. I think we should just scale the two to their own feats or whatever, not using "Stronger than Demise" as a justification should Ganon become High 4-C, and likewise not using "Stronger than ToP Ganon" as an extra justification for Demises High 4-C rating.
 
@Dark649, it wasn't really debunked; all what was said was the Sol Orbs being infused into the Master Sword. But still, all Zant did was teleport Link to locations in the Twilight Realm that mirrored various dungeons. Also, how recent was the sources?

@Lephyr Midna I forgot to mention was able to wrestle with Ganon's Dark Beast form and flip him over, with Link being able to somewhat harm him with a regular arrow. And Wolf Link also damaged Dark Beast Ganon somewhat. Link also still survives punches and sword strikes from Ganondorf and he pushed back Ganondorf's Sword of Execution in his fight.

Demise still has his feats where he brought the Goddess Hylia to a death state as well as his own High 4-C feat. And it doesn't outright say anything regarding full connection between Light Spirits and Light Force; but there's the fact that Light Force was stated to be a force that spreads all across Hyrule with Zelda being the source of it due to the connections of the Goddesses; which Skyward Sword confirms is being the reincarnation of Hylia. And considering Light Spirits are also described as being light that spreads across Hyrule, that's one hint. But Light Spirits being servants of Zelda is more in combination of that detail makes more sense into it.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Snip
Click to expand...
What even are half of these reasonings? The light arrows do not do significant damage to Ganon they have always, always bee consistently portrayed as merely stunning him so Link can get a hit in with his master sword. Unless you can play any of these boss fights and kill Ganon with only the light arrows, I'd love to see this. To call this "game mechanics" is completely baffling, it's a consistent part of Zelda games, the light arrrows stun him. Nor does he react the same way with the light arrows or master sword, I have no clue where you got this from, he's actually show outright damage when hit by the master sword.

Where did anyone state Link isn't comparable to Ganondorf, why are you even brining this up? Except Shazam is physically on par with Superma and Black Adam's tanked hits from Superman and can match him physically too. So these examples do not work and thus a complete false equivalence.
 
Dust Collector said:
He can hurt him just fine without the Master Sword in the orignal Legend of Zelda and Ocarina of Time.
Click to expand...
Not only is that due to both Triforce of Wisdom, and silver arrows + canonically having the magic sword in OG NES Zelda, but OoT he's canonically meant to finish off Ganon with the master sword, and again he has the ToC during that fight.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
@Dark649, it wasn't really debunked; all what was said was the Sol Orbs being infused into the Master Sword. But still, all Zant did was teleport Link to locations in the Twilight Realm that mirrored various dungeons. Also, how recent was the sources?
Click to expand...
Do you not realize the entire context behind the Sol Orbs being infused is what debunks it being teleportation? What location of the Twilight Realm directly mirrors it on that scale? You're once again taking far more assumptions and completely ignoring one of zant's main powers which caused the entirety of TP warping twilight and light.
 
(My post has been deleted twice. Rip.)

@Dust

Demise and Ganon should scale to their respective feats and not to each other, 100% agree.

Disagree with using Demise to argue outlier when judging higher feats from someone we don't even know if it's inferior to him. That's all I've debated.


Regarding original LoZ and OoT, I take WW's take as the more accurate depiction on the relation between Link and Ganon since is the more recent, which means the other instances were just retconned. Though that's just the way I see it. Either way, it's a clear example of how inconsistent are Zelda games between each other.

-

@Medeus

Link can only harm dark beast Ganon through his weak point. Same thing with the sword push. Surviving stuff from him is just durability for Link. That said, I didn't say Link isn't comparable, but to harm Ganon he needs the Master Sword.

So Hylia thing is unknown at best.

Edit: Oh, realized with the sword push you meant the blade lock. My bad there. But doesn't take away from my argument.
 
It doesn't need to be capable of killing him in order to scale; if it can at least harm him through raw power, it scales. And actually, in the Twilight Princess case, it actually does harm him; after the 4th shot; he falls of his horse. And actually, Light Arrows do damage Ganon in OoT if fired at his tail; as do Deku Nuts or the Hookshot. Saying, "it doesn't deplete his health meter" is literally the definition of game mechanics. Ganondorf is still in a grunting state implying he feels great pain. Also, In Breath of the Wild, it is possible for Link to beat Calamity Ganon; a beast far stronger than base Ganon, without any Master Sword or Light Arrows; though very hard to.

Actually, that is true equivalency there. Link actually is physically on par with Ganondorf in Twilight Princess; he wrestles him as seen above similar to the Shazam Vs Superman case, as well as Link surviving direct hits from Ganon. So there is the same correlation there.

The Sol Orbs thing hasn't debunked anything at all period. It only debunk them teleporting to a world outside the Twilight Realm, but it doesn't prove any star creation feats. In fact, the opposite is true. The Sword glows in the Twilight Realm due to the fact that the Twilight Realm has no real sun. And the fact that his sword is still glowing shows that no sun exists during the fight with Zant; thus disproving any existence of a Tier 4 feat coming from Zant. I'm not ignoring anything and you're the one making all the real assumptions here.

Lastly, Hylia is not as unknown as people keep saying. She's an actual Goddess where as Light Force, Bow of Light, Goddess Sword, and Princess Zelda being mere specs of her power and are her creation. Light Spirits are also thought to be similar to the three Dragons from Skyward Sword. And yes, Zelda is inconsistent; look at Ganondorf even with the complete Triforce losing to the Seven Wise Men for example.
 
The relation between the light spirits and Hylia is what it's unknown, @Medeus. As such, to use them as the principle to argue Hylia's superiority to someone she is never compared to, is flawed.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The Sol Orbs thing hasn't debunked anything at all period. It only debunk them teleporting to a world outside the Twilight Realm, but it doesn't prove any star creation feats. In fact, the opposite is true. The Sword glows in the Twilight Realm due to the fact that the Twilight Realm has no real sun. And the fact that his sword is still glowing shows that no sun exists during the fight with Zant; thus disproving any existence of a Tier 4 feat coming from Zant. I'm not ignoring anything and you're the one making all the real assumptions here.
Click to expand...
Re-read your own claim. "The sol orb hasn't debunked anything. Oh it debunked this." That's a full on contradiction. He warped the twilight realm that's shown a legitimate sun, we've already had an entire blog going over the fact that we treat a star in the sky as a sun unless there's a direct contradiction. No, you're making plenty of assumptions. The only thing I've said is what's directly shown by the game and that's Zant's reality warping.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
Do you not realize the entire context behind the Sol Orbs being infused is what debunks it being teleportation? What location of the Twilight Realm directly mirrors it on that scale? You're once again taking far more assumptions and completely ignoring one of zant's main powers which caused the entirety of TP warping twilight and light.
Click to expand...
By that logic, wouldn't the notion that Zant created a pocket dimension and teleported himself and Link in it also be debunked as well?

The Sol's Light Master Sword glowing debunks teleportation on both accounts - making the likelihood of the fights being an illusion seem plausible.
 
@Warren

He is stating the opposite: that Zant didn't teleport Link, but warpped the area.

Edit: As in, he summoned a sun in the place because he felt like it. ovo
 
Two boxers can punch each other in the face numerous times without killing each other, but they still hurt each other. And I was on the thread regarding Pocket Reality feats; I'm well of pocket Realities containing stars in the sky. But there was no star in the sky; I watched the video again and the sky was just a yellow sky resembling the Twilight Realm's sky which has no sun.

Also, the quote said itself, "it only glows when he's in the Twilight Realm due to being a mini sun in place of the sunless area." If Zant actually created another sun, then the Master Sword would have stopped glowing completely. It's not an assumption, but just a fact.
 
Warren Valion said:
By that logic, wouldn't the notion that Zant created a pocket dimension and teleported himself and Link in it also be debunked as well?

The Sol's Light Master Sword glowing debunks teleportation on both accounts - making the likelihood of the fights being an illusion seem plausible.
Click to expand...
The feat from what I've read was Zant warping the area, not teleporting them.
 
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