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Major Zelda revisions

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Ganondorf is planetary. Zant is not tier 4. This entire thing predicates on an incredibly small detail of a glowing sword. What makes far more sense is the Twili who has shown throughout the entire game to be capable of spatial manipulation/teleportation uses the ability that both he and Midna spam to teleport Link.

Also, Demise=Hylia>>>>Light Spirits (combined)=Light Arrows=ToP Ganondorf>Zant. So it would totally be an outlier even if it were legit.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Agree with PaChi on that.
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  • I agree with my master PaChi and will always agree with him as he is the living embodiment of wisdom.
Fixed that for you ovo.
 
The real cal howard said:
Also, Demise=Hylia>>>>Light Spirits (combined)=Light Arrows=ToP Ganondorf>Zant. So it would totally be an outlier even if it were legit.
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I won't comment about the validity of the feat, but yeah, this does imply it's an outlier.

So, is anything going to change? I think most of us agreed to keep Ganon High 5-A or At least 5-A, likely High 5-A, right?
 
Also, Demise=Hylia>>>>Light Spirits (combined)=Light Arrows=ToP Ganondorf>Zant. So it would totally be an outlier even if it were legit.
You mean the light arrows that exploit Ganondorf's weakness? And the light spirits that were defeated by Zant's underlings?
 
You knew that I liked JoJo, didnt you? I mean, Im waiting for part 8 to be completed to read it.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
@Inverted Tempest and @Sixo Bullets, Triforce already addressed that tha Vaati's supposed 4-A feat and the Sol orbs being Star level were dismissed and should be dropped. Triforce already explained the latter in detail about it just being light rather than GBE, but for the former; there's no mention or proof that Vaati created space; or even a realm. It merely said he spread darkness across the "Castle"; it's not the same thing as other pocket reality feats. But let's move on from both of those.
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Sol Orbs is Sixo's thing, which he can explain but is there general proof it's an illusory effect? That really doesn't seem backed up, rather an assumption that doesn't even refute what I said he BFRs you to a pocket realm he creates, which requires fewer assumptions to make the substantiation. But I'll agree to drop it for now since we're just arguing High 4-C for the time being.

Now back to you @Inverted about Demise, his High 4-C feat is legit and Triforce mentioned that he used the Triforce to kill the weakened Imprisoned.
Going to quote the wiki here because you still don't understand, "He is driven back three times, initially by Link alone and later with Groose's help. In each instance, Link must topple The Imprisoned over and drive the sealing spike back into its forehead, and finally deliver a Skyward Strike to the spike to reset the seal. Eventually, Link manages to acquire the complete Triforce, and wishes for the eradication of Demise." - https://zelda.gamepedia.com/The_Imprisoned

The only reason he couldn't kill the damn thing was that it kept coming back regardless of how many times Link beat it, meaning the only logical option was to eradicate it with the Triforce. Even then, having to wish with the full Triforce really doesn't prove anything at all, they can only wish grant with a completed version, not the individual pieces.

And he didn't have the True Master Sword at the time was the real reason as mentioned above, which was something he absolutely needed in order to even stand a chance against Demise. Me mentioning that Demise was overall below the complete Triforce doesn't contradict main point at all; but rather just sharing details on both sides. Both versions are High 4-C scaling from their own feats regardless of which character/force is superior.
Already mentioned they don't have the set potency and when I asked you to prove they were the same, you couldn't give me a good response. Full Triforce Ganon is 4-B, I really don't know what you're letting on here.

Now back to debating with @Giver and @Inverted, In the ending of Skyward Sword, most of its power was pretty much depleted upon slaying Demise reverting back to it's 2nd strongest form at the time as opposed to the True form which is the same form seen in Ocarina and Twilight Princess. Now to debunk the Wind Waker incident, it the beginning, the Master Sword was basically weakened a 2nd time to be the Goddess Sword form; but the two temples basically enhance to become Goddess Longsword and than back to Master Sword (same one from OoT and TP, and not the True MS). And okay, Golden Sword was a more amped up Master Sword blessed by a Great Fairy meant to counter the Complete Triforce; and that's High 4-C to an overall greater extent than True Master Sword for reasons mentioned above; but there's no proof of either of them scaling to Triforce fragments or ToP Ganondorf.
Giver covered this.

Anyway, let's keep the focus on Zant's feat or ToP Ganondorf's feat. Ganondorf moving the sun around was agreed to be the most speculative and that either flipping the Earth or stopping the Earth's rotation are the two more likely possibilities. And as Triforce said, Nintendo of America has been known for making poor translations which includes the context behind Zant's feat in game. The European guidebook Triforce mentioned translates the original Japanese context of accurately about Zant's feat simply being teleportation rather than a Reality Warping feat/creation feat.
Can we get proof it's more accurately translated? Generally =/= All the time.
 
@Lephyr. Same Light Spirits defeated Zant's entire race and crippled Midna. Zant's minions took them down by sheer numbers.

Also you're supporting this upgrade? Oh my how the tables have turned ovo
 
And wasn't it stated that Zant's underlings are themselves the twilight people or whatever? Or I'm misremembering that?
 
The way I see it:

An unknowingly higher dude than this people, and a gal that is unknowingly higher than that same people.

Not enough to declare outlier imo.
 
Since Cal is confused about my position in this, I will restate. ovo

For the record: I'm neutral regarding Zant stuff (In the way that I don't care, since I don't care about TP). However, imo, the reasons to suggest that the feat, even if legit, is an outlier, are not enough.

The endless night I still disagree on it scaling, and the planet turn on the Forsaken Fortress I disagree entirely.

However, if we do use the latter to scale from, the "possibly 4-C" thing should be used, as is an equally possible interpretation of the feat. (Although Triforce did brought a point that makes it questionable earlier in the thread)
 
Konaguna said:
Because Planetary feats are the best he's shown? You can say he's done them casually all you want, that doesn't make shit higher if he had no feats to back them up.
Ghirahim is the dark master sword are you a dumbass? It made Demise on par with link who had the sword in the first place. They are both he only swords that have a living essence bound to them what more proof do you want? They even both have the ability to use Skyward strike.

You're entire argument is basically: He did those feats casually so that gives me the right to set them higher than a definite higher feat.

The actual feats are Planetary, if you have any feat that puts him higher then be my guest and show it otherwise sit down and zip it, because you obviously don't realize a pure feat is the most major indicator of one's strength.
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So much wrong with this and blatant strawman, I'll number these so we knw whuch refute we're going by.

1. That doesn't debunk anything again it's done superbly casual and a person he outright gave his powers too did a full on tier 4 feat. You're ignoring this.

2. You're repeating yourself, refer to the trials Link had to do to even make the goddess sword into the master sword, I'd need to see proof Ghirahim needed to go through the same said trials or it would make little sense for him to get harmed by the weaker version of the master sword.

3. No it's not, this is blantant strawman. My point was the lower feats don't debunk anything as their casual so they wouldn't suddenly make him weaker then Demise just because he did that feat.

4. I showed you a feat that was higher and I showed you the basis of powerscaling, you've ignored both fronts and resorted to strawmanning and insulting.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
So much wrong with this and blatant strawman, I'll number these so we knw whuch refute we're going by.

1. That doesn't debunk anything again it's done superbly casual and a person he outright gave his powers too did a full on tier 4 feat. You're ignoring this.

you already got debunked on that, shit was teleportation, and Ganon hasn't got any above planetary feats with ToP. And he only gave him a portion of his power, because you completely forgot he got taken down by a fraction of midna's power.

2. You're repeating yourself, refer to the trials Link had to do to even make the goddess sword into the master sword, I'd need to see proof Ghirahim needed to go through the same said trials or it would make little sense for him to get harmed by the weaker version of the master sword.

That has nothing to do with the sword being different, it's still a living weapon, and it kept up with link and his fully powered master sword. I already named you tons of similarities, the trials were just a way to power the MS because it was so weak. Ghirahim was hurt by the sword because

1) works against evil beings

2)Ghirahim not even serious and was toying around

3. No it's not, this is blantant strawman. My point was the lower feats don't debunk anything as their casual so they wouldn't suddenly make him weaker then Demise just because he did that feat.

yOu aRe sTrAwManNIng mE!

I've debated idiots like you before, every time you get countered you call it a strawman, how pathetic. every time I see the same pattern, you're no different

You don't get jack, Ganon has consistent planetary feats, them being casual changes no difference because that means it can either be twice as strong, three times as strong or even up to a 100 times. Honestly you're spouting nonsense and should just back off. Here the characters are indexed by what is shown concretely not what is shown but it was casual and should be higher just because of that.

4. I showed you a feat that was higher and I showed you the basis of powerscaling, you've ignored both fronts and resorted to strawmanning and insulting.

The feat that got debunk? bet.
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LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Since Cal is confused about my position in this, I will restate. ovo For the record: I'm neutral regarding Zant stuff (In the way that I don't care, since I don't care about TP). However, imo, the reasons to suggest that the feat, even if legit, is an outlier, are not enough.
The endless night I still disagree on it scaling, and the planet turn on the Forsaken Fortress I disagree entirely.

However, if we do use the latter to scale from, the "possibly 4-C" thing should be used, as is an equally possible interpretation of the feat. (Although Triforce did brought a point that makes it questionable earlier in the thread)
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This is roughly my sentiments as well.
 
"you already got debunked on that, shit was teleportation, and Ganon hasn't got any above planetary feats with ToP. And he only gave him a portion of his power, because you completely forgot he got taken down by a fraction of midna's power."

>Except nothing about that feat got debunked and it was explainned several times why it's not teleportation.


"That has nothing to do with the sword being different, it's still a living weapon, and it kept up with link and his fully powered master sword. I already named you tons of similarities, the trials were just a way to power the MS because it was so weak. Ghirahim was hurt by the sword because1) works against evil beings 2)Ghirahim not even serious and was toying around" >It being comparable in strength to his sword =/= it being a dark master sword that doessn't prove it. The trials made the MS into the MS.


"yOu aRe sTrAwManNIng mE!

I've debated idiots like you before, every time you get countered you call it a strawman, how pathetic. every time I see the same pattern, you're no different

You don't get jack, Ganon has consistent planetary feats, them being casual changes no difference because that means it can either be twice as strong, three times as strong or even up to a 100 times. Honestly you're spouting nonsense and should just back off. Here the characters are indexed by what is shown concretely not what is shown but it was casual and should be higher just because of that."

>Except you didn't counter anything and completely misinterpreted my argument. Hence the very basis of a strawman. Ganondorf doing the feat casually is supposed to explain why that wouldn't suddenly debunk Demise being stronger then him because it's not his peak tier and he has a tier 4 feat from Zant.


"The feat that got debunk? bet."

>It didn't get debunked, actually read the refutations above.
 
"Ganon has consistent planetary feats"

No he doesn't. One, maybe two feats that he scales to are between 5-B and High 5-A. He just doesn't have any outliers as he is consistently above High 6-A.
 
The real cal howard said:
Ganondorf is planetary. Zant is not tier 4. This entire thing predicates on an incredibly small detail of a glowing sword. What makes far more sense is the Twili who has shown throughout the entire game to be capable of spatial manipulation/teleportation uses the ability that both he and Midna spam to teleport Link.

Also, Demise=Hylia>>>>Light Spirits (combined)=Light Arrows=ToP Ganondorf>Zant. So it would totally be an outlier even if it were legit.
Click to expand...
That makes no sense as Zant stomped one of the light spirits with no problem whatsoever and the Light Arrows have a specialty to them which allows them to severally harm Ganondorf and even then they were never shown to actually kill him only damage him but he shrugs it off in the horseback fight which would mean they're not on his Level
 
I said combined for a reason. Individually, they're clearly < Zant.


Also, dude. Silver Arrows reduced Ganon to ashes when he had two parts of the Triforce.
 
Silver Arrows don't equate to Light Arrows nor the Light Arrows in TP

The Light Arrows never stomped Ganondorf and its very unreasonable to say that the Spirits all together are stronger than Zant as we see him stomp one without any effort whatsoever,and to say the the Light Spirits are more powerful than the Triforce of Power is a bit odd
 
The real cal howard said:
Demise => Hylia >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Light Spirits (combined) = Light Arrows = ToP Ganondorf>Zant. So it would totally be an outlier even if it were legit.
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Cal hammered the nail regarding Demise Vs ToP Ganondorf. Demise is stronger than Hylia to the point where she had to seal him. And on top of that, Hylia created the Light Spirits and they're her humble servants; individually or altogether, they're well below Hylia. and their combined might is what gave Zelda the same arrows that significantly injure ToP Ganon. Zelda is rated as High 5-A with light arrows for that reason with Hylia being far above her. Also the weakness analogy is weak argument because where's Demise that fact that Demise still overpowered Hylia when Hylia should have his weakness too? If a tiny fraction of Hylia's power is enough to give Ganondorf quite a bit of trouble, where as all her might was recessive to Demise's power, I don't need to explain the last bit. And on top of that, Ganon as mentioned is above Zant as he's the one who gave Zant his powers in the first place.

Now before one argues Zant being above the spirits, the Spirits are like The Elder Gods from MK; they power is much greater when together. Zant was only able to defeat them one by one and it was heavily implied he would have been defeated had he fought them all at once. Now as for both the feat and the sol orbs themself. It's already been explained above that the Sol Orbs are not the same thing as the Sun. They lack the size, heat, mass, gravity, or most importantly the GBE of the sun of the sun. They're more like tiny balls of light and batteries. And while it does have solar energy, it's not proof that there's enough to equate the sun's GBE.

Now back to Zant's "feat", it was never stated that Zant created a Sun, but rather that he teleported Link to various mirror locations. Link's sword lighting up still has nothing to do with Sol being real stars or proof that Zant created a realm containing a star. And the Twilight Realm's size is also unknown. And the best official explanation given by any canon source still implies Zant teleported them rather than creating or destroying any sort of worlds. And even if the feat was legit, it would still be an outlier since Tier 4 is inconsistent with feats that only ToP Ganon did, as opposed to Complete Triforce, Demise, or Majora.

Also, a side note; the Complete Triforce was generally agreed to be downgraded back to High 4-C on the Pocket Reality feats clarification thread a while back since it's unknown of the Sacred Realm being any bigger than a diameter of 2 AU.

Anyway, I'm still leaning towards at least 5-A, possibly High 5-A who scale from ToP Ganon.
 
Yes, the Light Arrows. The arrows we know for a fact can harm him because it's his weakness.

So with all due respect to Cal, he didn't "hammered anything".

Demise has nothing that has him above ToP!Ganon other than misconceptions regarding the Master Sword and now a Hylia thing that is a bunch of unknowns.

Also, Zant didn't even bother to go to the light spirits. He sent his underlings.

"They are stronger when combined", where has this been stated or implied anywhere?

"It was implied Zant would have been defeated if he fought them all at once", where?

Sorry, still not enough to say outlier or dimiss scaling.
 
Edited my post to address the weakness analogy. Zelda is currently rated as High 5-A with light arrows is a note. Light Arrows being the kryptonite for beings of evil would only further strengthen the idea Demise's power being much greater than ToP Ganon and Zant. Especially if Light Arrows/Light Spirits who are a mere tiny spec of Hylia's power being the reason for Bane of Evil to begin with; where as all her might is not enough against Demise.
 
Or maybe Zelda needs to be downgraded, or given a "possibly" at best.

Although, where is it stated Hylia created the Light Spirits? Can't find that anywhere. The most I can find is that the Light Spirits serve the three goddesses, not Hylia.

Same with the Light Arrows themselves. Thought it was stated in OoT that they contain the power of the Goddesses. Was this retconned anywhere?
 
"Having the power of the goddesses" is too vague as literally every Triforce user and even Hylia herself is stated to be blessed by the Golden Goddesses. Or even frequent terminologies such as "The gods will watch over you or give you strength."

The Light Spirits are named after the Three Dragons is one hint, but I suppose holds nothing. But Hylia did create the Master Sword; aka another "Sword of Evil's bane" same boat as Light Arrows. And even then, Hylia herself being someone who's Evil's bane herself being not enough to defeat Demise while a supposed much weaker version of her did well against ToP Ganon still holds weight.
 
Hylia made the Goddess' Sword. The Master Sword was made by forging it with the Goddesses flames, and then awakened by Zelda.

If there is nothing to support the Light Spirits connection to Hylia, we go back on it being "unknown" at best. Also, keep in mind Hylia did defeat Demise and then Imprisoned him. Same with Link and the Master Sword.

The Light Arrows by themselves can't kill Ganon, only damage him.

Once again, the only thing this proves is that the dude has a weakness, though this weakness by itself can't kill.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Or maybe Zelda needs to be downgraded, or given a "possibly" at best.

agree with this

Although, where is it stated Hylia created the Light Spirits? Can't find that anywhere. The most I can find is that the Light Spirits serve the three goddesses, not Hylia.

Same with the Light Arrows themselves. Thought it was stated in OoT that they contain the power of the Goddesses. Was this retconned anywhere?

This was never the case, the most probable explanation fro their origin was most likely the light force
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