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Major Zelda revisions
- Thread starter Dust_Collector
- Start date
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@Konaguna
What are you even arguing?
What are you even arguing?
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Okay, then this isn't my fault. I'm not denying you even having a hard work day, but you shouldn't be mocking my refutes, saying they're not absolute then try to get upset when I call you out for the exact same thing. If you're busy, then you shouldn't be trying to excuse your refutes and should instead not be pushing I've done something wrong when I have more reason to assume you're trying to mislead people following the thread.DarkDragonMedeus said:
I didn't know you crossed it out for that, I thought it was because you were trying to mock the refute being bad in your eyes, as that's a very common usage of strikethrough. Regardless, I wasn't derailing with it, I already explained to you why it was relevant to establish that Zant was above the light spirits. Nothing really indicates they were stronger combined, which is elaborated more below.
And no, that remark comes off as incredibly offensive. I'll quote what I said, "It's the complete other way around from what you were trying to say. So in short, you completely manipulated a scene that happened in Twilight Princess in hopes of getting a falsehood accepted, or you just aren't as knowledgeable as you think you are, it's quite literally that simple." What about this is a "strawmanned conspiracy"? All you can really call foul play on me for was being aggressive in my approach, but there are others who have done the exact same thing on thread on the opposition which you've not protested against so these seem like real double standards. The only reason I've called you out for this was just you trying to act like my arguments were solely invalidated by the fact staff don't agree with me or this side of the coin, which isn't how a discussion should go down in which it's natural these tactics have to be resorted to make a point.
I was talking to Lightning and Giver, not you for those parts about Hero Shade. But still, curb stomping Tier 6 characters doesn't automatically mean Tier 4 is legit. Temple Bosses simply don't have any showings of being any higher than Tier 6, and Link beats them rather handley; but he's still not officially Tier 5 till close to end game for other reasons mentioned. The Solaris thread is a derailment and shouldn't be brought up here, but that one also has other issues; not just the holy weakness stuff.
That really isn't making a difference here, I can still help address the point for them. But regardless, I never claimed curbstomping a Tier 6 character made them Tier 4, I said that the Light Spirits simply do not scale to Zant or Ganondorf though.
The Solaris thread? I'm not bringing up the thread, you cannot disregard my example just because there is an ongoing thread about it. I'm saying by the wiki's standards, weaknesses and exploitation of them directly almost never let you scale to them. But if they are stomping those characters, then we don't really have a reason to assume that's his upper limit, you should literally never do as such if the feats are done casually, because that means no real effort was put into = not the full potential.
And 4 Spirits fused together, or spirits being reawakened causes numerous Twilight minions to be incinerated. Then again, a lot of things in Zelda are inconsistent, but that's because writers don't really care about power scaling and that's places like here exists to elaborate.
Okay, but the minions are below Zant very easily. My point was though that the Twili Zant sent to take care of the Light Spirits should honestly still disprove the notion they remotely scale. While a lot of them can be obliterated, what Zant sent isn't number specific whatsoever, but they'd still be below him obviously.
Also, using an assumption to counter an what you consider an assumption isn't really the best approach. Where actually do see the Sol Orbs up close; they're much smaller than an actual sun and don't appear to generate anywhere near as much heat or force as the sun. And yet, they're the closest things in the Twilight Realm to be considered stars or suns. But as mentioned above, it lacks any sort of concrete evidence to be a real sun. They're just solid orbs that generate light similar to sunlight; but not equal to a sun's GBE.
Because none of this is objective, it's all completely subjective like how most of fiction tends to be, there's not a distinct right or wrong and you know that. Anyway, assuming some of it is real and some of it is an illusion isn't a simplistic approach whatsoever, it makes far too many "compromises" to the point it gets invalidated by other alternatives. I.e., the fact it should all be real if more than a few things present are physically tangible and support Link.
The sun part has already been covered by Giver and Lightning so I find addressing this myself to be redundant if I do.
Anyway, this thread is getting too chaotic. And I'm pretty sure both sides are getting tired of arguing for Zant's Tier 4 rating. So I believe it's best to move on from that and go back to the credibility of Ganondorf flipping the Earth in Wind Waker.
No, all that accomplishes is you trying to shift the topic unnecessarily when we don't need to whatsoever. All that accomplishes is you silently going with "the staff agreed to this so we should put down this discussion, even though new points are continued to keep being made."
More importantly, none of the knowledgeable staff members agree with Tier 4 Zant. Not saying staff members are automatically obsolete over normal users, but it needs to be considered that our professional reasoning skills are what got us promoted to staff in the first place. We can't just upgrade characters or verses based something too vague; especially if appeal to popularity or fan service are the motivations behind it.
Staff Members aren't the end all be all determinants, you're supposed to help understand both sides of the argument, then proceed to justify your viewpoint. It seems more or less you're agreeing with a lot of what Cal's saying, even though everyone else addressed practically every point he brought up was incorrect and Dark649 doesn't seem to be taking much of a stance, only noting things once in awhile. Effectively, you're really the only Staff member representing your side, and that difference can't really matter when Cal has stopped replying and Dark isn't giving any input to the new parts of the discussion. I'm not saying you can't argue or anything like that as well, but this still sounds incredibly elitist on your behalf, this line specifically, "Not saying staff members are automatically obsolete over normal users, but it needs to be considered that our professional reasoning skills are what got us promoted to staff in the first place."
And that's already been explained; the Light Spirits formed into the Bow of Light; which is what gives Zelda the power to give significant Damage to Ganon. Before one says, "Oh that's because of Ganon's weakness to holy magic". By that, Link Wielding the Master Sword wouldn't scale due to Ordon Sword among other weapons doing 0 damage to Ganondorf as well and being in the same boat as the Bow of Light. And saying it only stunned him and not actually hurt him is more game mechanics; Ganon still reacts in a way that he expresses pain same way with Master Sword or Light Arrows.
This point isn't valid for a multitude of reasons. Giver already went over why the Light Arrow point was wrong, Lephyr corrobated other weapons harm Ganon as well, but the reason Link scales to Ganondorf with the Master Sword is because he literally physically clashes with him, before hurting him with the Master Sword. Key example in this scene right here. Link is literally physically holding back Ganondorf and physically overpowering him, even after their struggle. There are other moments like this in Zelda as well where they can still hurt him with other weapons so my point still stands, or else the weakness needs to be removed from his profile. Also, him expressing pain is a moot point if he literally is being hurt from the fact his weakness is being exploited.
No one said Zant was or the pots were illusions, only the backgrounds. But Warren mentioning Holodecks make sense as it produced an illusory sun as well as real steeps/hills. Also, that circle in Oblivion's picture looks like the same color as the sky not covered by clouds. Twilight Realm has a bright yellow sky and dark clouds with colors seen in the image.
Which still isn't a consistent PoV, it really seems unsupported that the rest is just an illusion, you keep treating Zant likes he's Infinite and casually creates illusions to this degree. Literally his best showing according to his page would be, "Illusion Creation (Can create fake projections of himself to combat enemies)." You're suggesting he's conjuring up an entire illusion to this degree, when his best display is a completely bare minimum and underwhelming showing at best.
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He's arguing in regards to Dust saying the environment is an illusion, when that is clearly incorrect.LephyrTheRevanchist said:
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I don't see why changing the appearance of the twilight realm would stop the Master Sword's glow.
The quotes provided tell me that it is the presence of the Sols that cause it, no matter how the realm itself appears, so unless Zant brought the Sols along for the ride to the light world, they are still in the twilight realm.
The quotes provided tell me that it is the presence of the Sols that cause it, no matter how the realm itself appears, so unless Zant brought the Sols along for the ride to the light world, they are still in the twilight realm.
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@Inverted Tempest, strike throughs can mean anything. They sometimes just mean harmless jokes, but they can also mean bits that were dropped; which it is the latter in this case. I suppose I can delete the crossed out segment completely, if that's what's prefered I suppose; anyway, I apologize for making that misconception to begin with, but it doesn't invalid my other arguments. And I wasn't pushing for anything, I was merely discussing and trying to help out the community. I do work hard both IRL and on this community as to many others do. Again, I never manipulated a scene, but I was simply tired and didn't have the best memory at the time. Yes another user was quite hostile, but others have already protested against them so I didn't need to. But either way, two wrongs don't make a right; no one should be behaving with hostility to begin with. I am not at all offended when people disagree with me, but what is offensive when you're so rude, obnoxious, or condescending towards others. And side note, I actually find it even more offensive when people are rude to others than when people are when they're rude to me.
Weaknesses and weak points are a case by case scenario and I already explained above why Light Arrows and Master Sword are treated. And those weren't the only refutes against that off topic Solaris example. Light Arrows are still rated as "High 5-A against beings of Evil." Also, the damage done to Ganon was still pretty significant as mentioned above and it was elaborated further in later posts. As laid out, Link and Zelda Vs Ganondorf is more akin to Shazam Vs Superman than it is to the Solaris fight. And the Master Sword is more or less in the same boat as light arrows as far as weakness is concerned. And Wold Link was able to harm Beast Ganon's belly; with Midna physically flipping over Beast Ganon.
You do realize three Light Spirits literally stomped the entire Twili race in the beginning. And anyway, the minions sneak attacked the individual light Spirits while their guard's were down, so that's not really the best example. And again, they were also separate at the time and their powers typically grow when they're united. When there's just one present, Shadow Beasts have been able to survive in Hyrule, but when 3 or 4 are united, none of the Twili other than a fully awakened Midna seemed to be capable of surviving. Though, I can't defend Midna's weakened imp form that doesn't have the Fused Shadows or Zelda's blessing. And all 4 of them uniting is what grants them light arrows.
The sun and Sol Orbs analogy has also further been elaborated in further comments; it's not been discovered that there never was a sun during the battle against Zant ruling out the possibility of a Tier 4 feat, and same with Dust Collector's images showing that it was just the yellow sky circled by clouds/fog and mountains.
Yes, I do appear to be the only staff member elaborating on this thread for the most part, but others in the past have already elaborated this non stop. To quote The Real Cal Howard, he's been open to admit that he's pushed for nearly every Zelda upgrade opportunity in the book since 2016; that's over three years, dozens if not hundreds of threads and thousands of posts. This includes everyone becoming Massively FTL via aiming an arrow at at the sun, Vaati's 4-A stuff, this feat, and the biggest one is Universal Triforce. All to no avail of getting accepted. You might not see it, but I respect Cal because of that even if none of it went through. He is an awesome admin, but even he has his limits. He would know better than anyone if a Zelda upgrade potential is not legit.
I already addressed Link being physically on par; that's why he's High 5-A in general instead of just with specific attacks. Zelda in TP still has legit AP, just not durability or striking strength on Link or Ganon's level.
It was already addressed that the sols were inside the Master Sword, and glow to reflect the Twilight Realm's lack of a sun, as it doesn't glow whenever he leaves the Twilight Realm and it glows again whenever he returns. And since they were still glowing during the battle with Zant, that shows that there was no sun during the fight.
Edit: Scroll down below, the image that had a sun was a complete fake made using photoshop, thus ruling out any possibility of Zant having a High 4-C feat.
Weaknesses and weak points are a case by case scenario and I already explained above why Light Arrows and Master Sword are treated. And those weren't the only refutes against that off topic Solaris example. Light Arrows are still rated as "High 5-A against beings of Evil." Also, the damage done to Ganon was still pretty significant as mentioned above and it was elaborated further in later posts. As laid out, Link and Zelda Vs Ganondorf is more akin to Shazam Vs Superman than it is to the Solaris fight. And the Master Sword is more or less in the same boat as light arrows as far as weakness is concerned. And Wold Link was able to harm Beast Ganon's belly; with Midna physically flipping over Beast Ganon.
You do realize three Light Spirits literally stomped the entire Twili race in the beginning. And anyway, the minions sneak attacked the individual light Spirits while their guard's were down, so that's not really the best example. And again, they were also separate at the time and their powers typically grow when they're united. When there's just one present, Shadow Beasts have been able to survive in Hyrule, but when 3 or 4 are united, none of the Twili other than a fully awakened Midna seemed to be capable of surviving. Though, I can't defend Midna's weakened imp form that doesn't have the Fused Shadows or Zelda's blessing. And all 4 of them uniting is what grants them light arrows.
The sun and Sol Orbs analogy has also further been elaborated in further comments; it's not been discovered that there never was a sun during the battle against Zant ruling out the possibility of a Tier 4 feat, and same with Dust Collector's images showing that it was just the yellow sky circled by clouds/fog and mountains.
Yes, I do appear to be the only staff member elaborating on this thread for the most part, but others in the past have already elaborated this non stop. To quote The Real Cal Howard, he's been open to admit that he's pushed for nearly every Zelda upgrade opportunity in the book since 2016; that's over three years, dozens if not hundreds of threads and thousands of posts. This includes everyone becoming Massively FTL via aiming an arrow at at the sun, Vaati's 4-A stuff, this feat, and the biggest one is Universal Triforce. All to no avail of getting accepted. You might not see it, but I respect Cal because of that even if none of it went through. He is an awesome admin, but even he has his limits. He would know better than anyone if a Zelda upgrade potential is not legit.
I already addressed Link being physically on par; that's why he's High 5-A in general instead of just with specific attacks. Zelda in TP still has legit AP, just not durability or striking strength on Link or Ganon's level.
It was already addressed that the sols were inside the Master Sword, and glow to reflect the Twilight Realm's lack of a sun, as it doesn't glow whenever he leaves the Twilight Realm and it glows again whenever he returns. And since they were still glowing during the battle with Zant, that shows that there was no sun during the fight.
Edit: Scroll down below, the image that had a sun was a complete fake made using photoshop, thus ruling out any possibility of Zant having a High 4-C feat.
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"Their powers tipically grow when combined"
Still no scan of that.
"Light Arrows High 5-A against evil beings"
Should be a 'possibly' at best. Samurai Jack isn't rated "insert Aku's tier" for harming him with his katana.
Wolf Link case is attacking a specific light/divine-magic inflicted wound that Ganon couldn't heal, so shouldn't be used to scale him.
Still no scan of that.
"Light Arrows High 5-A against evil beings"
Should be a 'possibly' at best. Samurai Jack isn't rated "insert Aku's tier" for harming him with his katana.
Wolf Link case is attacking a specific light/divine-magic inflicted wound that Ganon couldn't heal, so shouldn't be used to scale him.
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Btw, saying "3 spirits stomped the twilis" only supports how much Zant is above them when his minions, which if I remember correctly are the twili themselves but corrupted by Ganon's magic, are capable of taking them out.
"Sucker punch", sure (I don't agree, Ordona's flashback showed them walking slowly to it and then it cuts to a pan shot of it's light exploding and everything falling to twilight), but how much lower can that make you compared to it? Certainly not entire tiers below.
Btw, Midna being capable of wrestling Ganon yet almost killed by the mere light of one of the spirits, already weakened by Zant, is a show of how light it's indeed a power that bypasses durability to this beings (the twili), if we accept Midna scaling at all when she was basically stomped by someone weaker (Zant).
Why can't this same light bypass Ganon's when we know it is one of his weaknesses?
"Sucker punch", sure (I don't agree, Ordona's flashback showed them walking slowly to it and then it cuts to a pan shot of it's light exploding and everything falling to twilight), but how much lower can that make you compared to it? Certainly not entire tiers below.
Btw, Midna being capable of wrestling Ganon yet almost killed by the mere light of one of the spirits, already weakened by Zant, is a show of how light it's indeed a power that bypasses durability to this beings (the twili), if we accept Midna scaling at all when she was basically stomped by someone weaker (Zant).
Why can't this same light bypass Ganon's when we know it is one of his weaknesses?
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Ganondorf doesn't have the same weakness Twili's do and is thus not susceptible to the presence of the Light Spirits, and Zant is protected by Ganon is the only reason he's not effected; Midna was in her weakened Imp form without the Fused Shadows also, which Zelda's blessing later protected her. Midna needed the fused Shadows in order for her to hold off Beast Ganon.
Even so, Ganondorf actually has actually resisted holy magic before; especially when the Sages were incapable of killing Ganondorf with the Sword of Execution. And when he resisted sealing from Princess Zelda and the 6 maidens in Four Swords Adventure. And needed Link to weaken him.
Even so, Ganondorf actually has actually resisted holy magic before; especially when the Sages were incapable of killing Ganondorf with the Sword of Execution. And when he resisted sealing from Princess Zelda and the 6 maidens in Four Swords Adventure. And needed Link to weaken him.
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He didn't resisted the sword. He was just incapable of being killed by it thanks to his immortality via the ToP. He still insanely weak to it, considering he one shotted the sage that uses the sword in the first place, one shotted to the point he turned him to dust, so they weren't comparable at all, yet the sword penetrated and left a wound he was 100% incapable of ridding himself of, even when regen'd from his soul. So yeah, that's a clear weakness to me.
Edit: A weakness that, again, bypassed his regen directly.
Edit: A weakness that, again, bypassed his regen directly.
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"And resisted sealing"
Resistance to sealing we know he has from other games. But the light stuff damaging him I believe is consistent althrough out too.
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This actually brings me to a bit of a controversial upgrade. Should Ganon have Type 8 inmortality based on the ToP/Goddesses. In WW, the Goddesses themselves opted to seal him instead of just simply one shotting him (a seal he later escapes anyway). In TP, he is mortally wounded by a sword that bypassed his regen, yet the ToP kept him going. Same with OoT; he was repeatedly hit with Light Arrows, his own attacks and sword strikes until he was basically so weakened that his castle collapsed on top of him; once again, the ToP kept him going.
Resistance to sealing we know he has from other games. But the light stuff damaging him I believe is consistent althrough out too.
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This actually brings me to a bit of a controversial upgrade. Should Ganon have Type 8 inmortality based on the ToP/Goddesses. In WW, the Goddesses themselves opted to seal him instead of just simply one shotting him (a seal he later escapes anyway). In TP, he is mortally wounded by a sword that bypassed his regen, yet the ToP kept him going. Same with OoT; he was repeatedly hit with Light Arrows, his own attacks and sword strikes until he was basically so weakened that his castle collapsed on top of him; once again, the ToP kept him going.
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It's possible, tbh. He had the old Type 4 based on it. Problem is, Link did kill him permanently before. In WW, TP (had to reincarnate), ALTTP (had to be brought back), and Classic.
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Ganon was never killed permanently in WW or Classic Zelda; he later became Calamity Ganon, which is confirmed to take part in at the end of all three timelines. Maybe the Golden Goddesses merged the three timelines into one; which further seals her 2-C justification, but too bad it can't scale to anyone else.
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WW, didn't have the ToP. TP, legit, although that would be more a property of the Master Sword imo. ALttP, used a weapon specifically made to bypass the Triforce. Classic, no comment.
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Ganondorf actually lost the ToP before dying in TP. Original is because Link stole the ToP from him, ALTTP is because, uh, reasons. Probably something similar to TP happened, if I had to guess.
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Was Ganon actually using the Full Triforce? As it was in another room when Link got it after the fight
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It would've appeared there after Link defeated him, he was already in technical possession of the Triforce in its complete state before the events of aLttP so we really don't have a reason to assume otherwise.Oblivion Lightning said:
EDIT: I'll reply to DDM later.
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Oh yeah, you are correct! Now I remember the scene.TriforcePower1 said:
I really need to refresh my memory on TP, my god. xD
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It would've appeared there after Link defeated him, he was already in technical possession of the Triforce in its complete state before the events of aLttP so we really don't have a reason to assume otherwise.
EDIT: I'll reply to DDM later.
I see it's just weird to think that Ganon could just wish Link to die but you gotta have a game some how I guess
EDIT: I'll reply to DDM later.
I see it's just weird to think that Ganon could just wish Link to die but you gotta have a game some how I guess
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Maybe ALttP Link has resistance to Reality Warping powers, or Ganondorf didn't use those powers out of CIS. Then again, the Seven Wise Men were able to defeat and seal away Ganon who has the Complete Triforce, but that was most definitely PIS.
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Well then, getting back to the topic at hand.
Zant's stuff. Illusion or Warping. I agree that he indeed warpped stuff. However, due to a lack of showing (as showcased by Dust), he didn't warpped a sun.
Zant's stuff. Illusion or Warping. I agree that he indeed warpped stuff. However, due to a lack of showing (as showcased by Dust), he didn't warpped a sun.
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Yeah, it looks like the only thing left is whether Ganondorf's feat is either 5-C or High 5-A; and if the low end feat is what it is, they could still scale from Calamity Ganon's 5-A feat. At least 5-A, possibly High 5-A seems like the most reasonable solution now.
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So I got curious about that image, and searched the original file on the wiki so I could download it. It turns out it's a ".octet-stream" file, my phone didn't want to open the image. I search what an octet file is, and turns out it only opens with a text editor. I used the text editor I have on my phone. It's a photoshop file.
The image is fake.
The image is fake.
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I got it from google images
I don't even own photoshop nor know how to use it
I don't even own photoshop nor know how to use it
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As I've already stated multiple times, I also think these are the most reasonable ratingsDarkDragonMedeus said:
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Hmm, I suppose I have nothing left to say regarding Zant's supposed High 4-C feat then. No one really does.
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Capture from my phone screen, you can see the name of the file on top and compare with the original.
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I tried searching the image on google. Nothing came up.Oblivion Lightning said:
And again, the original file was uploaded as a "octet stream". It's pretty easy to verify.
Sad that 'someone' tried falsifying images just to get an upgrade.
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I'm not sure your implying I edited it or not which I didn't and I promise I did not(although I cannot really prove that now can I :/)
I still support the upgrade and yes would like to see it be put through but now that there's a possibility there is no sun then it of course should be dropped
I still support the upgrade and yes would like to see it be put through but now that there's a possibility there is no sun then it of course should be dropped
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We don't quite accuse you of making the image, but I have a feeling a different user might have made it a long time ago. That being said, making the image would be considered a violation, but we can't prove anyone in particular is quilty, so no one's getting banned just for uploading it.
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Link's Sword glows once absorbing the power of the Sol Orbs and it only glows in the Twilight Realm and when Zant "warps" Hyrule Castle and feilds the sword is still glowing during the fight meaning they must still be in the Twilight Realm
Disproving it being teleportation
Disproving it being teleportation
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can I get scans for:
-Master sword before going to twilight realm
-Master Sword in the twilight realm before infusing it with sols
-Master Sword in the twilight realm after being infused with sols
-Master sword in Zant's realm
-Master sword once you beat Zant and out of Twilight realm
I wanna see how much exactly the glowing differs in all of those
-Master sword before going to twilight realm
-Master Sword in the twilight realm before infusing it with sols
-Master Sword in the twilight realm after being infused with sols
-Master sword in Zant's realm
-Master sword once you beat Zant and out of Twilight realm
I wanna see how much exactly the glowing differs in all of those
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We don't assume there is a Sun unless there is a clear object in the sky that at least ressembles one.Konaguna said:
We have I believe a guide or whatever that states Link is still in the Twilight Realm.
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Anyway, since we are mostly getting into a conclusion (we should still wait for Inverted, since he said he wanted to say some stuff), I will say my final stance (for now).
Calamity Ganon feat I don't know nor will I debate it since I don't want BoTW spoilers, so I'll remain neutral to that.
However, I disagree with the "possibly High 5-A", as the feat comes from an assumption made from an instance with questionable validity: I.e., Ganon moving the planet just to set night because Link appeared on his island, yet returning it to day when Link leaves, but moving it again because Link came back. Doesn't make any sense.
Calamity Ganon feat I don't know nor will I debate it since I don't want BoTW spoilers, so I'll remain neutral to that.
However, I disagree with the "possibly High 5-A", as the feat comes from an assumption made from an instance with questionable validity: I.e., Ganon moving the planet just to set night because Link appeared on his island, yet returning it to day when Link leaves, but moving it again because Link came back. Doesn't make any sense.
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