Major Zelda revisions

[Dust_Collector]

So this was all being discussed in another thread that's a bit of mess with several topics being discussed and new possible ratings for the characters being brought up so I've made a new thread to make the discussion easier to follow.

In any case this will either end up with a lot of Zelda characters being heavily upgraded or heavily downgraded so here's what we got based on the previous thread and suggestions several users made and will affect all profiles currently rated as High 5-A.

High 5-A to 4-C
So during the Wind Waker you can, and have to, travel to Ganons fortress, even if it's day out the game automatically makes it night within a few seconds once you get there, leaving two options:

• A: Ganondorf is either rotating the planet (Which is what we currently accept for out current High 5-A ratings) or moving the sun and moon to the other side of the planet to create night since we visibly see the sun setting and moon rising at high speeds (4:08 mark) when the sudden change to night happens. The sun moving interpretation would have to be treated as equal to the planet rotation interpretation since neither have any evidence over the over as it's never actually stated what's exactly happening here.

• B: This is just game mechanics that automatically makes it night to set up an oppressing atmosphere since there's no reason for Ganon to randomly make it night via such extreme means and nothing in the game or outside sources even acknowledge the quick change from day to night or even imply that Ganon is for no reason rotating planets or moving celestial bodies, meaning Ganondorf never actually moves anything.

High 4-C
During Twilight Princess you eventually come face to face and battle Ganons biggest fan, Zant, and he uses his magic to change his throne room to resemble different locations found in Hyrule, leaving us with again two options:

• A: Zant the twilight realm into different areas across Hyrule warps the twilight realm into different areas across Hyrule including an area with a sun (9:00 mark), therefore all the High 5-A characters should be upgraded to High 4-C.

• B: Zant is simply teleporting you and himself to the actual areas in Hyrule rather than warping the Twilight Realm and creating a sun or he's using high level illusion creation to make his throne room look like these areas.

High 6-A, 5-C, Low 5-B or 5-A
These would be the options for the High 5-A characters should we decide the High 5-A to High 4-C feats are illegitimate due to reasons like lack of evidence or maybe it's decided the feats are outliers or something and can't be used. High 6-A is via scaling from Levias, 5-C is assuming the endless night story event Ganon causes in the Wind Waker is him stopping the planets rotation (This was calced at 5-C but I can't remember where), Low 5-B would be via scaling from the Four Giants (The thread about upgrading base MM Link mentions that ad a possible scaling point), and 5-A is via scaling to Calamity Ganon and his moon moving feat.

So yeah, either upgrades to as high as Large Star level or downgrades to as low as Multi-Continent level, pretty major stuff. There's obviously some compromises to made here, DarkDragonMedeus for example suggested "At least 5-C, possibly High 5-A to 4-C" as a possible rating we can give them, but who knows what they'll end up at.

 

[Sixo_Bullets]

Here's my argument I was posting for Zant before it got closed.

I'm very confused on why you continue to make massive assumptions that contradict the game itself.

Zant didn't transform ONLY the kingdom, he created an entire world of shadows and made it so a dimensional barrier is between the Darkened Land and the World of Light. Speaking of which, here are two statements which essentially confirm he affected more than just the Kingdom:

"Listen carefully... This was once the land where the power of the gods was said to slumber. This was once the kingdom of Hyrule. But that blessed kingdom has been transformed by the king that rules the twilight... It has been turned into a world of shadows, ruled by creatures who shun the light."

Oh, that's right. I forgot to mention one thing... Though you may have left the darkened realm, you haven't transformed back to your former self... and you won't anytime soon!"

Zant turns it into a realm and world of shadows and affects even beyond the Kingdom. And hell, you can even see it beyond Hyrule as you progress in the game.

Okay, where is it EVER implied that Zant is teleporting or creating illusions? Even if you disregard the value of the last feat, he's more consistently shown feats of warping on that scale and it's very baseless to assume he can create illusions such as that.

Okay, you realize you have to prove in this case that it was an illusion or that he didn't warp it right? The standards are to assume that they did create or warp it and if you think otherwise you have to prove this. Also, how is it having the standard sun cycle go against it? If anything, that goes against the notion of it being an illusion. It's not like that either by the way, as it can't turn night and doesn't go dark quickly like Hyrule Fields do. He did warp it and Oblivion Lightning already stated about twice why it wouldn't be an illusion or teleportation due to having confirmation of being in the Twilight Realm along with the items and such being real. Your response to this was just "well nothing implies he warped it" when everything against the notion of warping has been debunked.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

For starters, it was agreed to be a step by step process while starting with the more self explanatory ones first. Which I believe the Majora's Mask possible Low 5-B upgrades mentioned on the other thread could be a good start.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I agree with Sixo and High 4-C reasonings. MM is a different thing since none of this would scale to MM aside from putting Link's stats up and that's it.

 

[Dust_Collector]

@DDM Would you mind highlighting this please? It's pretty important afterall.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have posted it on the Official highlights thread.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Thanks.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

I agree with the High 4-C Zelda stuff. It's consistent with the Vaati feat, which should probably be brought up again + Ganon doing a potentially 4-C feat with the Endless Night thing. I agree with Sixo and Giver for the most part.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I don't know about the second feat since the link is broken. But the first seems like it's game meachanics.

 

[Dust_Collector]

The link for the second feat should be fixed now.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Endless Night is confirmed to be through Ganondorf's power, it's not game mechanics whatsoever. I'll post from the scan if I can when I get home or if someone else can.

 

[Dust_Collector]

We're not talking about the endless night, we're talking about the sudden change to night whenever you go to his fortress.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Oh, I misread

 

[Ogbunabali]

Is there context for the second feat like any lore bit, or anything? Are those places you can go to or are they completely new ones?

 

[Wokistan]

I thought we weren't supposed to highlight verse specific things?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

So I just played Wind Waker on a completed file and went to foresaken fortress after Ganon leaves it and it didn't turn night for me.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

"https://zelda.gamepedia.com/Forsaken_Fortress#Third_Visit

"Third Visit
If Link visits the Fortress after Ganondorf is attacked by Valoo, he will find that the curse of endless night has lifted and the Fortress is devoid of enemies, save for several Keese and Rats; the Fishman later claims that the Fortress has indeed been completely abandoned. Contrary to popular belief, the Heart Container dropped by the Helmaroc King will also appear near where Link obtained the Skull Hammer at this time, if he failed to collect it after slaying the boss.

Later on, while Link is exploring Ganon's Tower in Hyrule, he is given the opportunity to open a portal of darkness linking it to the Forsaken Fortress, allowing the young hero to return to the surface of the sea quickly and conveniently, should he so desire. It was through this portal that Ganondorf was able to escape the sealed kingdom originally and wreak havoc on the inhabitants of the Great Sea."

 

[Sixo_Bullets]

Is there context for the second feat like any lore bit, or anything? Are those places you can go to or are they completely new ones?

He's warping his realm into places you've been to before and this is consistent with him warping the world of light into a world of shadows earlier in the game.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I thought we weren't supposed to highlight verse specific things?

Not unless that verse is huge and widely effects the Wiki. This doesn't.

 

[Dust_Collector]

We don't do verse specific highlights anymore? Huh, didn't know that.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Alright so the highlight can be removed then. Anyways as you can see above I've shown that the foresaken fortress thing isn't a gameplay mechanic.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Oh, GiverOfThePeace posted what I was gonna send since I just got home. Obviously, that should indicate I agree with him on it as well.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well if that's his own realm and if he has done similar reality warping, it's fine for that to be a tier 4 feat, I guess.

 

[Dust_Collector]

@GiverOfThePeace There are several problems with that. For starters the game itself never mentioned any kind of curse around his fortress, that's only something the wiki says and they don't even link a source for that claim. Plus it not suddenly going to night after the 2nd visit makes sense since there's no need for the game to set up an ominous atmosphere for the demon kings fortress since he high tailed it back to Hyrule. So the game still never makes mention of the sudden night change and even after Ganon leaves all the info we get is "Yeah it's abandoned now" with nothing said about any curse or how it stays day now instead of becoming night.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Sorry about that, I could remove the highlight. Was just helping with requests.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Firstly, it doesn't matter if the curse was never mentioned in-game cause that's not what I was getting at. What I was getting at was the fact that the foresaken fortress is only ever night when Ganon is in it, the minute he leaves the foresaken fortress the fortress is suddenly light and everything. This clearly shows that's what the devs intended. If they never intended that they would of just left it as night time. Going for the "ominous atmosphere" argument doesn't work anymore. Cause the atmosphere would still be kept omnious because of how the area works in general, just like how Hyrule Castle's atmosphere as an adult always remains omnious even after you fix all the areas. It's clear as day this is a curse done by Ganon because he's already shown to be able to do this with the endless night curse in itself. You attempted to stick to "the curse is never mentioned" when that wasn't even my point and basic problem solving shows it's not a gameplay mechanic.

~Devs would of just left it always to turn night

~The minute you enter the area and it turns night for your 2nd visit King of Red Lions mentions how Ganon posssibly noticed their presence

~Tetra references how weird stuff happens there.

It's objectively not a game mechanic.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Why would they just leave it to turn night when they have no reason to set up a certain atmosphere? Ganon possibly noticing your presence is irrelevant, why would him possibly knowing you've arrived mean he'd randomly make it night? Have you considered that maybe Tetra says weird stuff happens there because it's a creepy fortress with pig monsters walking about and has a giant monster bird living in it that kidnaps young girls?

If it's objectively not a game mechanic and this is truly 100% without a doubt Ganon rotating the planet or moving the sun then anwser these questions. What reason would Ganon have to do such extreme things just to make it night time whenever you go there? And why does nothing in the game or any outside source ever even acknowledge the sudden change from day to night like they acknowledge his curse to create an endless night?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Because they'd have no reason to remove that if it was a game mechanic lol, the foresaken fortress is meant to be omnious with or without Ganon. How is this irrelevant? So he can use the search lights and have his phantom come out. Except pig monsters are all around the Great Sea, so I don't know what you're getting at with this, and weird stuff happening in there does not correlate to kidnapping outside of the fortress. Something happening inside of a fortress is different from an outside event.

Phanom Ganon. Cause the foresaken fortress in itself is an area of importance for kidnappings not because it's night. Should I mention now that Ganondorf playing the piano in OoT is a game mechanic because they never talk about it or mention it? They acknowledge the curse of the endless night because guess what? That's happening all over the great sea not one restricted area that people wouldn't want to go to in the first place. I rest my case it's objectively not a game mechanic. I also never said him rotating the planet was objective, I said that it being a game mechanic is objectively wrong. Please do not put words into my mouth.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Here's all the info on Zant and I even made a new seperate thread on it

Zant Battle (High 4-C) I made a thread on this in the past and it was closed due to current revisions interfering with the hotheadedness process as it is now currently being debated on and is mainly agreed on

The Feat:In the final phase of the fight Zant warps the Twilight Realm to recreate Hyrule Castle and it's fields along with a star in the sky

Image:images

Why it's not BFR:In the Twilight Realm the Master Sword absorbs the power of the Sol Orbs which give it a bright sparkly glow and in a Zant's fight when he warps the realms to create the boss rooms and Hyrule Feild the sword continues to glow canceling out the option of it being BFR as the glowing sword must indicate they're still in the Twilight Realm and not actually at Hyrule Fields

Quote:"In the Palace of Twilight, Link fuses the Master Sword with the power of the Sols. This Light-Infused Master Sword enables Link to defeat most monsters of Twilight in a single blow. The sword is also capable of clearing away the Dark Fog that causes Link to revert back to wolf form.[33] This upgrade is only usable while in the Twilight Realm."

Why it's not an illusion:In the battle the several jars and pots in the Blizzeta phase and Hyrule Fields contain physical items in them which negates the idea of Zant creating illusions along with the fact that he warps several aspects in his fight like his size and several giant replicas of his helmet.

 

[Dust_Collector]

It's not always meant to be ominous whether or not Ganon is there, at one point it's the stronghold of the Demon King and a giant child kidnapping monster bird and at another point it's an abandoned fortress with...rats. Yeah, Ganon needed those search lights since for some reason his ability to sense others stopped working and he needed them to find Link and even had them already looking out for intruders 24/7 even if Link is far enough away for it still be daytime just in case he needs to suddenly move the sun itself to make it night.

Also why would it need to be night for Phantom Ganon to come out? Is Ganon incapable of creating anything that doesn't burn to death in sunlight so he needs it to be night? Again, the Tetra point doesn't mean anything since she already knew a giant bird took girls there and if she wanted to refer to the sudden unexplained day to night shift she would have said something that wasn't as broad as "Weird stuff happens there". Wow that piano example is bad, I mean we actively see him playing the thing, here we get "Wow it's randomly night now I guess" whenever you get there unlike in OOT where we straight up Ganon on screen doing it on with no uncertainty of whether or not he's actually playing a piano. Here it becomes night out of nowhere and Ganon is off screen so we have no idea what he's doing besides twiddling his thumbs.

Also I'm pretty sure I'm not putting words into your mouth, you mentioned before that you agree that Ganon is rotating the planet or moving the sun and moon. Either that or the constant amount of times people kept mixing up the endless night and forsaken fortress in the previous threads just made me confused to what anyone was even referring too. If it's not game mechanics and you never said/don't think him rotating the planet or moving the sun is objective what else would it be?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

An abandoned fortress is actually extremely omnious I have no idea what world you live in hen an abandonded area where acts like abducting happended aren't still seen as omnious areas to enter. Regardless your conclusion takes SO many more assumptions then simply "Ganondorf left the area and it no longer turns night there, therefore it's Ganon's doing". You realize you can sense the presence of someone but NOT pinpoint their exact location correct? I present to you a great scene in a New Hope that perfectly shows this. Vader senses Obi Wan's presence but can't perfectly pinpoint it therefore he can't find them. So I have no idea what your point was here. He makes it night because of his Phantom, I already pointed this out.

Because Phantom Ganon's MAIN weakness is light? You seem to be a zelda fan from what I've seen in your Ganon rts so you should know WW Phantom Ganon's main weakness and what ends up killing it for good. Already pointed out the difference between what happens in the area nad what happens out the area, you're repeating yourself on a point I've already refuted. Provide a new refute or you're going on ad nauseum. That's not bad at all, you've just took my example and tried to apply it to something radically different. My point was it wasn't outright mentioned in any source that Ganondorf plays the piano so therefore even if we see him ddoing it we shouldn'ttake it as accurate. Please don't try and shift my examples to get ahead with your points. We know why it's Ganon I've already shown why.

You are lol, I didn't even outright say I agreed with it, I asked the reasoning the endless night scene was rated as 5-C and I said that likely 4-C seems to make sense since we didn't have a concrete conclusion if the planet was rotating or if the moon/sun was being moved. None of these was me directly agreeing with the planet spinning. I believe it'd be this.

 

[Antvasima]

You should use The Legend of Zelda verse page and the Knowledgeable Members List to find people to ask to comment here via their message walls.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Asked them several hour agos.

@GiverofThePeace Ah so I was mistaken about what you said, sorry about that I just got confused by the previous threads. Also I don't think we can't use night manipulation since I'm pretty sure we don't consider super specific abilities like that as valid here. I also personally think he's doing something here (But what he's doing exactly seems too vague to give him a tier) but Warren was the who suggested game mechcanics so I thought I'd try and argue for his point of view since he hasn't commented yet.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

I swear I remember a statement of Ganondorf's plan in Twilight Princess being that Zant was borrowing his power to merge the Twilight Realm and the realm of Hyrule, so that scene might have been referencing that.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Restating my position from laat thread; don't agree with the endless night and "darkness spell around fortress" scaling, but if it's decided it does, support the "at least High 5-A, possibly 4-C".

Neutral on Zant stuff.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Even if legit, Zant's feat is an outlier. Him being on the same level of Demise or Majora is definitely an outlier.

For the current High 5-A characters, I'm fine with keeping them as they are now. Most I can accept is "At least 5-A, likely High 5-A". 4-C is just unlikely given that we see "moving" both the sun and the moon (the latter with no reason to be moved for an endless night to happen), which would make the assumption of moving the planet higher than moving the sun, especially because it's far easier to rotate the planet rather than moving the sun, both in AP and range.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Even if legit, Zant's feat is an outlier. Him being on the same level of Demise or Majora is definitely an outlier.

-
I can understand Demise, but why Majora? Majora doesn't have any connection to the "main bad guys". If Zant is even stronger than it, it wouldn't contradict anything, really.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Okay, admittedly Majora isn't much connected, but still, point remains.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Even then, I would argue Ganon with the ToP is stronger than Demise.

Tho no one would hear me. ovo

Him empowering someone to be stronger than him wouldn't be farfetch'd if that's the case.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The reason why I say Ganon is stronger than Demise, is because Link didn't have the Full Triforce when he fought him. He left it in the future skyloft.

"But the symbol glowed in his hand."

- The symbol of the triforce in his hand glowed when he adquired the flames to upgrade the Sword of the Goddess into the Master Sword.

SS!Link never used the TP while in combat against anyone in Skyward Sword. He pretty much fought in base all through out the game. Naturally, that means he would scale above Levias and the water dragon in the end, particularly because of Ghirahim.

About Demise's "High 4-C feat", wasn't it stated in another thread that him "making a realm" was a mistranslation, or that was debunked?