DarkDragonMedeus said:
Actually, in the same scene where you said Zant stomped Lanaryu and while Wolf Link was unconscious, a weakened Midna was able to help Lanaryu back up, who in turn reversed Zant's powers and scared him away. So that's a one-sided attempt of a refute right there.
You're joking, right? This didn't happen whatsoever and is just more proof to doubt your credibility anything Twilight Princess related. First you said Link had absolutely no training from the Hero's Shade, then you implied the Light Spirits would all stomp Zant, now you're saying that Midna controlled Lanayru, helped him back up, they both destroyed Zant, and made him pull a Christmas Carol Joker to make him leave.
None of that ever happened at all. And if we really go the route of "that was just your interpretation," I'm going to quote straight from the wiki yet again here.
"When Zant attacks
Midna and Link at Lanayru's spring after they find the last Fused Shadow, Lanayru appears and attempts to attack Zant, but is knocked back. Zant then magically forces Lanayru to shine its light on Midna, gravely injuring her." -
https://zelda.gamepedia.com/Lanayru_(Spirit)#Biography
It's the complete other way around from what you were trying to say. So in short, you completely manipulated a scene that happened in Twilight Princess in hopes of getting a falsehood accepted, or you just aren't as knowledgeable as you think you are, it's quite literally that simple.
Lanaryu was still on his own, and Light Spirits are portrayed as being astronomically stronger when together as seen during the battle with Ganon. Anyway, stunning Ganondorf would still be threatening in a technical sense. And we didn't mean to say that Zelda's Light Arrows are quite on par with Ganon, only that they are within the same Tier as him and Zant.
I'm going to quote a section straight from Ganondorf's own page regarding the weaknesses he has to prove a point here.
"
Weaknesses: In his weakened/incomplete state, he is considerably less resilient, possessing no special defense against non-holy attacks, hence, Link was able to defeat him without such a weapon. | Sacred or holy weapons/magic, such as the Master Sword, are highly effective against him. Can sometimes be arrogant or overconfident. | Sacred or holy weapons/magic, such as the Master Sword, are highly effective against him. Can sometimes be arrogant or overconfident." -
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ganondorf
As I said, the only reason they remotely harm him is because it's exploiting a weakness he has. We don't treat exploiting a weakness/point of vulnerability as scaling to said person, that's part of the reason
Sonic,
Shadow, and
Silver weren't initially scaled to
Solaris. These are remote double standards otherwise because it's quite clear they don't scale.
Also, again, look at examples such as the
The Elder Gods from Mortal Kombat; they got casual
Low 6-B feats and despite that, they were able to defeat a
Low 2-C character with their combined might. Light Spirits are the same scenario.
Why would this be the case? It takes
three of them to take down the Intelopers originally, why do we assume that they are suddenly such a jump ahead? It took the three of them to take down what would eventually become the Twili race, this was especially before Zant practically got the Ganon amp who had the Triforce of Power. Literally even then, Zant again sent normal minions to take care of them, more goes against them remotely scaling at all, especially when the "combined" notion of them being that strong isn't remotely supported liking you're trying to propogate.
You'd have to ask Dark649 about the Light Force scaling, some of us a while back did propose a downgrade for the Minish Cap cast, but he was the one said they were fair game with the details provided.
That doesn't demean what I said at all, there's never actually a statement saying that a single Triforce piece is comparable to the Light Force. That's my gripe with it, meaning it's still more likely that even a single Triforce piece would be above it.
I've played through Twilight Princess multiple times; including a 100% and a three heart challenge. Anyway, Link has only had basic training from Hero's shade; he did not complete his training. And as mentioned above, Link doesn't officially become as strong as the main villains of various Zelda games until the end game; his power gradually grows as the story progresses. But that's beside the point.
You realize I never remotely denied Link getting stronger EoG, right? You brought up Link for practically no reason, I only brought it up because it's quite clear Lanayru is fodder to someone like Zant when it come down to it. Also, you're altering your statement here. Originally it went from, "Link was also a lot weaker back than as he didn't have Master Sword or training from Hero's Shade," to, "Link has only had basic training from Hero's shade; he did not complete his training." There's a difference between the two, hence why I have reasonable skepticism on you claiming you've played Twilight Princess as you say.
There's still little to no validity to Zant's supposed
High 4-C feat other than him merely teleporting Link to either the places themselves or mirror locations resembling those locations. Scaling from in depth lore or mentioning that literal avatars are weaker than the original god forms is legit scaling. ToP Ganon or ToW Zelda still lack the feats to compare to their true forms.
Why would we assume he teleported Link? There seems to be more going against such a notion as indicated above. Anyways,
such things do not apply to them when empowered by Triforce pieces. I can agree Ganondorf like from OoT is obviously not superior to Demise, but the idea that Ganondorf with the Triforce of Power is completely unsupported and has a pure headcanon as the sole justification on why it's wrong. The Burden of Proof would be on you to objectively prove they don't scale in any comparable way, not for you to demand that it is shown that they are comparable.
Even if we play a huge Devil's Advocate here,
Hylia and Demise are already listed as "At least High 4-C". They would literally only get a solid High 4-C feat if the Zant thing is to be accepted, the "At least" rating here would literally already imply they'd be above such if you have such a problem accepting anything outside of your own view because Demise's own feat was done uber casually. Once again,
we have no actual reason not to put them at High 4-C, your arguments against it are either weak or make no difference with the current scaling we go by whatsoever.
And again, Zant has never shown to create a Sun, and just because the pots that contains healing hearts or the water is real, doesn't mean the sky is real. Not to mention healing hearts are more so game mechanics. Also, it is loosely stated that the Twilight Realm is around the same size as Hyrule is. It doesn't even have a real sun and instead just has two little tiny orbs that generate light; and as others said, it they would at best be High 6-A since the orbs or Twilight Realms "Sun" lacks any calcs higher than that.
This would be up for you to objectively disprove. You're acknowledging the pots are tangible, same with the water as well, but you are saying for some reason the sky is the odd one out? To quote
Occam's Razor, "The principle states that one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed." You are taking WAY too many assumptions here, assuming that Zant has Illusion Creation on this scale which he has never shown, trying to say the sky is an illusion despite being proven everything else is real, and you're trying to say "it's two orbs in the sky at best." There's far more aligning to assume an actual
High 4-C feat, you seem to be incredibly against this despite the presumptions to assume it has wrong are completely flawed and so skeptical that we might as well give any pocket dimension feat the same treatment and say, "Well we can't assume it's actually a normal sized star until they give a description of how a star works within the dimension!1!1!1!1!"
