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Major Zelda revisions

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DarkDragonMedeus said:
Yeah, even if Zant's High 4-C is legit, it would seem rather outlierish as he's minion inferior to Ganondorf. He was originally just a fodder character until Ganon bestowed him some of his power.
Click to expand...
He's not "just another minion of Ganondorf," he outright possesses the power of Ganondorf who outright had the Triforce of Power in Twilight Princess. So if anything, that puts Zant on par with other singular Triforce users, you are trying to mitigate what has been said with very atrocious reasoning against it. Zant is clearly above normal minions of Ganon.

Demise is also clearly above Triforce of Power Ganon as Link needed the complete Triforce's wish just to slay the Imprisoned; also, complete Triforce was agreed to be downgraded to just At least High 4-C on multiple threads back.
Link couldn't kill the Imprisoned otherwise, that's why the wish was needed. Otherwise, Link was completely beating it. I don't think it was ever agreed upon either that Demise stronger than ToP Ganon. Actually, Demise's High 4-C is done incredibly casually as well, I don't know why you keep acting like it's the upper limit they go to.

Honestly, this would be like the top of logic we'd use to downgrade Jojo being MFTL because there are more consistent statements to place them at Hypersonic, yet we give them the benefit of the doubt and assume the highest ends because they are consistent. These feats for High 4-C singular Triforce as consistent, there's absolutely no reason to reject this.

I agree with Triforce that at least 5-A, possibly High 5-A seems like the safest bet since flipping the Earth is a safer bet than moving the sun, and Calamity Ganon's feat was agreed still had mentions of being legit.

No... I think putting them at High 4-C would be much better. Vaati does a High 4-C feat, Zant does a High 4-C feat, and Ganon does a possibly 4-C feat. We have absolutely no reason to not put them at High 4-C if the feats are consistent, in which we've already explained they are.
 
He's not "just another minion of Ganondorf," he outright possesses the power of Ganondorf who outright had the Triforce of Power in Twilight Princess. So if anything, that puts Zant on par with other singular Triforce users, you are trying to mitigate what has been said with very atrocious reasoning against it. Zant is clearly above normal minions of Ganon.

Demise is also clearly above Triforce of Power Ganon as Link needed the complete Triforce's wish just to slay the Imprisoned; also, complete Triforce was agreed to be downgraded to just At least High 4-C on multiple threads back.
Link couldn't kill the Imprisoned otherwise, that's why the wish was needed. Otherwise, Link was completely beating it. I don't think it was ever agreed upon either that Demise stronger than ToP Ganon. Actually, Demise's High 4-C is done incredibly casually as well, I don't know why you keep acting like it's the upper limit they go to.

Honestly, this would be like the top of logic we'd use to downgrade Jojo being MFTL because there are more consistent statements to place them at Hypersonic, yet we give them the benefit of the doubt and assume the highest ends because they are consistent. These feats for High 4-C singular Triforce as consistent, there's absolutely no reason to reject this.

I agree with Triforce that at least 5-A, possibly High 5-A seems like the safest bet since flipping the Earth is a safer bet than moving the sun, and Calamity Ganon's feat was agreed still had mentions of being legit.

No... I think putting them at High 4-C would be much better. Vaati does a High 4-C feat, Zant does a High 4-C feat, and Ganon does a possibly 4-C feat. We have absolutely no reason to not put them at High 4-C if the feats are consistent, in which we've already explained they are.

I wish I could pay you,this is perfect for anyone questioning Zant's feat ƒæì
 
@Inverted Tempest, Vaati's feat is a genjutsu and it would be 4-A if it were legit; but it's not. Demise is also superior to Ganon with ToP, that has been discussed multiple times and in fact; Ganon is a devolved reincarnation of Demise similar to how Zelda is a devolved reincarnation of Hylia. Hyrule Historia even makes a mention about Demise being the greatest evil force out there. Link still required the fully awakened Master Sword in order to defeat Demise in the past, and that's also the same Master Sword used to defeat Ganon empowered by complete Triforce. Demise is legit High 4-C for sure, but that's not the point. And as mentioned above, it's only implied that the complete triforce is above Demise, not the three separate pieces.

I mentioned above and read the context that there was no proof of Zant creating or warping the sun; only that he teleports you to various locations of past boss and mini boss fights as Dark649 laid out. I also wasn't saying Zant was that weak during the boss fight; of course he's Ganon's level; I simply said his power comes from Ganon and he would have been powerless if not for him. Also, don't be so confrontational with the accusations.

And the last thing is that we don't know if Ganondorf's feat is 5-C, High 5-A, or 4-C. But it was agreed that the 4-C once seemed the a bit stretchy according to a few staff members. And I said I was more neutral on that.
 
It being discusssed does not suddenly debunk it. Discussions are not objective and I wish people would stop trying to use it as an objective source and Sixo outright refuted your no proof point you ignored it from what I've read on this thread. BASE Ganondorf is a reincarnation of Demise, as you can clearly see Base Ganon and ToP Ganon flutuate greatly in power.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
@Inverted Tempest, Vaati's feat is a genjutsu and it would be 4-A if it were legit; but it's not.
Click to expand...
Elaborate as to why it isn't legitimate.

Demise is also superior to Ganon with ToP, that has been discussed multiple times and in fact; Ganon is a devolved reincarnation of Demise similar to how Zelda is a devolved reincarnation of Hylia. Link still required the fully awakened Master Sword in order to defeat Demise in the past, and that's also the same Master Sword used to defeat Ganon empowered by complete Triforce.
Where is this stated or implied it's the exact same extent of empowerment? There's literally more going against Demise scaling to the Triforce. He literally required the whole thing to accomplish his goal of destroying the world. It's quite an obvious observation Demise and Hylia are inferior to the full Triforce.

Being devolved incarnations would literally only mean something for their base forms, not for when they are even empowered by a singular Triforce piece. Also, discussions aren't objective in determining stuff in making everything infallible to criticism.

Demise is legit High 4-C for sure, but that's not the point. And as mentioned above, it's only implied that the complete triforce is above Demise, not the three separate pieces.
Okay, so first, you were saying that Link needed the same power of the Master Sword to take on Demise as he needed full Triforce Ganon, but now you're saying that Demise is inferior to the Triforce now. I really feel like you don't know what you're arguing because you keep contradicting your own previous claims.

Also, it wouldn't need to be proven he's inferior or comparable to the singular Triforce pieces or even implied, this just seems to be Argument from Belief on your behalf if you think single Triforce piece wielders shouldn't be High 4-C just because you personally think Demise is above them.

I mentioned above and read the context that there was no proof of Zant creating or warping the sun; only that he teleports you to various locations of past boss and mini boss fights as Dark649 laid out. I also wasn't saying Zant was that weak during the boss fight; of course he's Ganon's level; I simply said his power comes from Ganon and he would have been powerless if not for him. Also, don't be so confrontational with the accusations.
Except for Sixo outright gave reasoning why this was incorrect and you ignored it in favor to keep calling it incorrect and an outlier, that was made incredibly evident when you tried to devalue Zant to being just some fodder minion making it inconsistent.

And the last thing is that we don't know if Ganondorf's feat is 5-C, High 5-A, or 4-C. But it was agreed that the 4-C once seemed a bit stretchy according to a few staff members. And I said I was more neutral on that.
Um, the fact it's in the realm of believability at all should honestly be enough to still make it a supporting feat. I think several other people already agreed it was a likely possibility he outright might've done a 4-C feat, which would be consistent contextual support of High 4-C.
 
"Link still required the fully awakened Master Sword in order to defeat Demise in the past, and that's also the same Master Sword used to defeat Ganon empowered by complete Triforce."

If you're referring to ALttP Master Sword, that was the Golden Sword, not the Master Sword, that was use to fight TP empowered Ganon. Also, Ganon in base could tank the full power master sword in WW. By this logic, Ganon himself already scales above, as he needed both the master sword and light arrows to beat.

I hope you see why that argument doesn't work.
 
I never changed my argument, only shared details. And we didn't ignore what Sixo said, but Triforce said those were likely mistranslations from the original Japanese version. Vaati's feat was brought up on multiple threads, but were often dismissed as outlier or it being an illusion. There was no proof of him creating stars in the background. All he did was warp the inside of Hyrule Castle and the you see stars in the background. Azathoth said it best here.

It was mentioned on another thread and by Triforce that the Master Sword was the only thing Link can use to fight Ganon in A Link to the Past; the game where Ganon has the Complete Triforce. Anyway, there's no proof that Zant, or ToP Ganon are superior to Demise and TriforcePower1 and many other staff members also explained why in detail. There was also details mentioned regarding Hyrule Historia. And Wind Waker didn't have, "The Complete Master Sword" it has a weakened Master Sword similar to the regular Goddess Sword then later had the power restored to become OoT level Master Sword.

Now in regards to Zant, Sol Orbs don't really hold any weight of being actual stars or even absorbing them isn't justification for an upgrade. Dark649 and Azathoth both said Zant's entire fight was nothing but illustory backgrounds of previous bosses and minibosses. Also, just because he warped the twilight realm doesn't mean he warps the entirety of it. And again, I never "Tried to devalue" anyone, I merely pointed out details and those types of accusations need to stop as it's uncivilized. I even vaguely recall that Cal turned down Zant's feat, which he'd be that last staff member to turn down a big Zelda upgrade.

I would elaborate more, but I got back from a very long day at work not too long ago and pretty tired.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
It was mentioned on another thread and by Triforce that the Master Sword was the only thing Link can use to fight Ganon in A Link to the Past; the game where Ganon has the Complete Triforce. Anyway, there's no proof that Zant, or ToP Ganon are superior to Demise and TriforcePower1 and many other staff members also explained why in detail. There was also details mentioned regarding Hyrule Historia. And Wind Waker didn't have, "The Complete Master Sword" it has a weakened Master Sword similar to the regular Goddess Sword then later had the power restored to become OoT level Master Sword.
Click to expand...
The master sword in ALttP was boosted to become the Golden Sword, and that is what that Link used against full triforce Ganon.

The Master Sword SS!Link uses it's the regular one. And it's the other way around; Demise doesn't have anything to suppoet him being above ToP!Ganon. In fact, we have highlighted quite the opposite in this thread.

The only thing that made him scaled to the full TF was the misconception that Link used it against him. He didn't. Nor against the Imprisoned.

The only time Link used the TF in Skyward Sword was to permanently kill the Imprisoned in the future.
 
Vaati's feat got rejected multiple times. It's not something we should talk about here as it's derailing.

The Master Sword in SS is the "True" Master Sword, while the one used to defeat ALTTP Ganon was the golden Master Sword. The latter is way more powerful than the former.

Link using the Triforce to defeat The Imprisoned is simply due to Demise's Immortality. Link also didn't have the True Master Sword at the time, so it makes sense as he had nothing else to permanently put him down.

Dark sent me a scan from the Italian official guide that explicitly says that Zant teleported Link outside of Hyrule Castle. I need to find the English version for confirmation, but if legit, that would invalidate Zant's feat.
 
Stop saying master sword has a potency, that's ******* Reetarded, the potency of the Weapon is whatever it's wielders potency is. Only reason it hurts something as powerful as a TF Ganon is because

1) it was specifically made to kill him

2) is the anathema to evil beings
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I never changed my argument, only shared details. And we didn't ignore what Sixo said, but Triforce said those were likely mistranslations from the original Japanese versio
Click to expand...
Actually from what I see, the mistranslations were talking about the Demise feat and triforce pointed out that wasn't a mistranslation.
 
Hagane no Saiyajin said:
You know, I've sort of questioned the High 5-A key because it was a one-time feat and it was from a more experienced Ganondorf. When he might have obtained in Ocarina Ganon could have not been using the ToP to its full potential therefore scaling him to 5-A via Blood Moon. Should it also be mentioned that in Wind Waker the Tri-Force was taken away from Link at the end so he was not 5-A/High 5-A.

I'm not saying that the High 5-A feat is an outlier, it should instead get its separate key
Click to expand...
Has everyone ignored this?
 
Wind Waker Ganon didn't really have the time to get that much more experienced given that he was sealed away 99% of the time between OoT and WW. Even then, experience wouldn't change the power output, so pure raw energy attacks would be on the same level.

But much more importantly than all of this, when Ganondorf turns into Ganon in OoT, he uses the full power of the ToP, and given that both are comparable to Link, Ganondorf wasn't really using a small amount of that power.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
Vaati's feat got rejected multiple times. It's not something we should talk about here as it's derailing.

The Master Sword in SS is the "True" Master Sword, while the one used to defeat ALTTP Ganon was the golden Master Sword. The latter is way more powerful than the former.

Link using the Triforce to defeat The Imprisoned is simply due to Demise's Immortality. Link also didn't have the True Master Sword at the time, so it makes sense as he had nothing else to permanently put him down.

Dark sent me a scan from the Italian official guide that explicitly says that Zant teleported Link outside of Hyrule Castle. I need to find the English version for confirmation, but if legit, that would invalidate Zant's feat.
Click to expand...
Then the guide would then be going against the games logic as the Sword only glows whenin the Twilight Realm
 
Link in general growing stronger after obtaining it.

There is also the statement about the sword being bound to Link's soul (BOTW), similar statements across ALTTP, being able to go from defeating High 7-A bosses to 6-B+ bosses and above.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I never changed my argument, only shared details. And we didn't ignore what Sixo said, but Triforce said those were likely mistranslations from the original Japanese version. Vaati's feat was brought up on multiple threads, but were often dismissed as outlier or it being an illusion. There was no proof of him creating stars in the background. All he did was warp the inside of Hyrule Castle and the you see stars in the background. Azathoth said it best here.
It was mentioned on another thread and by Triforce that the Master Sword was the only thing Link can use to fight Ganon in A Link to the Past; the game where Ganon has the Complete Triforce. Anyway, there's no proof that Zant, or ToP Ganon are superior to Demise and TriforcePower1 and many other staff members also explained why in detail. There was also details mentioned regarding Hyrule Historia. And Wind Waker didn't have, "The Complete Master Sword" it has a weakened Master Sword similar to the regular Goddess Sword then later had the power restored to become OoT level Master Sword.

Now in regards to Zant, Sol Orbs don't really hold any weight of being actual stars or even absorbing them isn't justification for an upgrade. Dark649 and Azathoth both said Zant's entire fight was nothing but illustory backgrounds of previous bosses and minibosses. Also, just because he warped the twilight realm doesn't mean he warps the entirety of it. And again, I never "Tried to devalue" anyone, I merely pointed out details and those types of accusations need to stop as it's uncivilized. I even vaguely recall that Cal turned down Zant's feat, which he'd be that last staff member to turn down a big Zelda upgrade.

I would elaborate more, but I got back from a very long day at work not too long ago and pretty tired.
Click to expand...
"Now in regards to Zant, Sol Orbs don't really hold any weight of being actual stars or even absorbing them isn't justification for an upgrade"

"The Sols were like the suns that illuminate this world." — Midna

"That shining sphere illuminates this world. It's called a Sol. It's like the sun of your world, Link."

"The power of the Sol is the source of life in this world'... It is pure power." — Midna

"Dark649 and Azathoth both said Zant's entire fight was nothing but illustory backgrounds of previous bosses and minibosses"

Without proof I might add. Unless they have proof they're disregarding the items and consistent warping that Zant does. Ignoring stuff doesn't make your argument look better.

"Also, just because he warped the twilight realm doesn't mean he warps the entirety of it."

What? Okay, you just proved you ARE ignoring my points and others altogether. There is multiple statements of him affecting beyond just the land and you outright see this, and him creating a world of shadows and making it darker would imply him warping the light sources of the world. Put two and two together.
 
Sixo Bullets said:
"Now in regards to Zant, Sol Orbs don't really hold any weight of being actual stars or even absorbing them isn't justification for an upgrade"

"The Sols were like the suns that illuminate this world." — Midna

"That shining sphere illuminates this world. It's called a Sol. It's like the sun of your world, Link."

"The power of the Sol is the source of life in this world'... It is pure power." — Midna
Click to expand...
Yeah, about that...

"ÒâÅÒéñÒâ®Òâ½Òü«ÕàëÒü«Þ╝ØÒüìÒü¿Òü»ÒÇÇÚÜÅÕêåÒÇÇÚüòÒüåÒüáÒéì?"

"It's entirely different from the radiance of Hyrule's light, don't you think?" (literal translation)

"It's like the sun of your world, [Link]." (NoA's translation)

I'm sorry that you had to pick exactly the quote that more than anything else shows how bad can NoA mess up sometimes.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I never changed my argument, only shared details.
Click to expand...
Ummmm.....

"Link still required the fully awakened Master Sword in order to defeat Demise in the past, and that's also the same Master Sword used to defeat Ganon empowered by complete Triforce."

"Demise is legit High 4-C for sure, but that's not the point. And as mentioned above, it's only implied that the complete triforce is above Demise, not the three separate pieces."

One moment you are saying it's the exact same potency used to kill Demise against a foe who wielded the full Triforce, then you are changing to Demise being below the Triforce. That is a contradiction no matter how you look at it.

And we didn't ignore what Sixo said, but Triforce said those were likely mistranslations from the original Japanese version.
You did, the only refute against it was "it was a mistranslation likely." We don't go off of likely, we go by what we could prove. Hitchen's Razor negates this point entirely since you're still asserting something without proof to substantiate it.

Vaati's feat was brought up on multiple threads, but were often dismissed as outlier or it being an illusion. There was no proof of him creating stars in the background. All he did was warp the inside of Hyrule Castle and the you see stars in the background. Azathoth said it best here.
Why are we assuming he warped the inside of Hyrule Castle instead of making a completely different space? There doesn't really seem to be much going for that. Also, regarding this, "There was no proof of him creating stars in the background." With this type of logic, we might as well invalidate any pocket dimension creation feat.

It was mentioned on another thread and by Triforce that the Master Sword was the only thing Link can use to fight Ganon in A Link to the Past; the game where Ganon has the Complete Triforce.
Okay, that means nothing in proving the exact same potency.

Anyway, there's no proof that Zant, or ToP Ganon are superior to Demise and TriforcePower1 and many other staff members also explained why in detail.
I don't remember such an explanation. All Triforce said was, "I can see ToP Ganon being stronger than Demise, but currently there's no proof of that. Anyway, outside of probably being an outlier, Zant's feat seems legit." If you consider a headcanon as official reasoning to disregard it, then I guess you're right.

There was also details mentioned regarding Hyrule Historia. And Wind Waker didn't have, "The Complete Master Sword" it has a weakened Master Sword similar to the regular Goddess Sword then later had the power restored to become OoT level Master Sword.
Giver of the Peace already showed something that outright gave statements against the Master Sword having a consistent AP, it varies from each Link wielding it entirely.

Now in regards to Zant, Sol Orbs don't really hold any weight of being actual stars or even absorbing them isn't justification for an upgrade. Dark649 and Azathoth both said Zant's entire fight was nothing but illustory backgrounds of previous bosses and minibosses. Also, just because he warped the twilight realm doesn't mean he warps the entirety of it. And again, I never "Tried to devalue" anyone, I merely pointed out details and those types of accusations need to stop as it's uncivilized. I even vaguely recall that Cal turned down Zant's feat, which he'd be that last staff member to turn down a big Zelda upgrade.
Sixo explained this and what Cal thinks is absolutely irrelevant if he has no reasoning behind what he says. Even then, admins aren't the end all be all sole experts and deciders of a verse.

And no, you quite literally were trying to devalue what I was saying by calling my discussive mannerisms as uncivilized. How can you even claim otherwise?

I would elaborate more, but I got back from a very long day at work not too long ago and pretty tired.
Okay.
 
Ok this is going nowhere tbh,now who's in favor for Zant's feat and who is against it.If you say your against it please provide why and do consider the debunking of arguments from previous supporters
 
TriforcePower1 said:
Sixo Bullets said:
"Now in regards to Zant, Sol Orbs don't really hold any weight of being actual stars or even absorbing them isn't justification for an upgrade"

"The Sols were like the suns that illuminate this world." — Midna

"That shining sphere illuminates this world. It's called a Sol. It's like the sun of your world, Link."

"The power of the Sol is the source of life in this world'... It is pure power." — Midna
Click to expand...
Yeah, about that...
"ÒâÅÒéñÒâ®Òâ½Òü«ÕàëÒü«Þ╝ØÒüìÒü¿Òü»ÒÇÇÚÜÅÕêåÒÇÇÚüòÒüåÒüáÒéì?"

"It's entirely different from the radiance of Hyrule's light, don't you think?" (literal translation)

"It's like the sun of your world, [Link]." (NoA's translation)

I'm sorry that you had to pick exactly the quote that more than anything else shows how bad can NoA mess up sometimes.
Click to expand...
ra┬Àdi┬Àance

/╦êr─üdēəns/

nou

  1. 1.
light or heat as emitted or reflected by something.


How does it being dimmer or colder mitigate it being like a sun at all? It still functions like a sun and that's consistently stated, you're misinterpeting what it means. Also that's not even the only quote I gave, I gave three that made it consistent.

Also, why are we taking some random translation over the official one exactly?
 
Because NoA messes up. A lot.

Anyway, Sols are important and everything, but they're clearly not stars, so it wouldn't be tier 4 regardless.

Edit: to extend what I said above, Sols are simply bringers of light in the Twilight Realm, hence the connection with the sun, that gives light to Hyrule (and the rest of the planet). Sols aren't meant to be taken as literal suns.
 
Yeah nice baseless claim friend. Try again.

Thank you for ignoring the multiple statements and just saying they aren't stars. I understand they're quite small. However, their size is irrelevant due to this statement:

"The power of the Sol is the source of life in this world... it is pure power."

A sol outright powers the Twilight Realm, so I fail to see how their size would even do anything to this and the other statements of being a star at this point.

Edit: Read above.
 
I mean, the sun is also the source of life in our world, but that's because it keeps the planet warm and gives light to the plants that create oxygen, not because of its power.
 
Sixo Bullets said:
Except for the fact that, you know, that statement says that it is pure power?
Click to expand...
I mean if it says pure power then I would agree and it would also coincide with Zant's feat the WW stuff I'm not sure about
 
And? It's pure power, not that it has the power of an actual sun. And if you're trying to repost the old statements, they all refer to how the sols have a similar purpose to the sun, not that they're actually the same thing.
 
Yeah... I have to agree on the Sol thing with Triforce. It's not concrete enough imo.

Also, the size of said "stars" does indeed matter here, as we take the value for their rating from their GBE.
 
If it purely power base then it would have the energy and power of a Star is the two are closely compared and what does this really have to do without Zant's Feat as I thought that's what was being debated before
 
Well I don't think that Link or Ganondorf were High 5-A when they fought at the end of WW because didn't he take the Tri-Force pieces to put them together?

P.S. Which wish granting devise does better, Dragon Balls or Tri-Force?
 
We already know they weren't High 5-A during their final battle in Wind Waker. Also don't derail this with pointless questions about comparing the Triforce and Dragon Ball, take that to a F&G board.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
And? It's pure power, not that it has the power of an actual sun. And if you're trying to repost the old statements, they all refer to how the sols have a similar purpose to the sun, not that they're actually the same thing.
Click to expand...
Uh, never claimed that. I claimed it's purpose of supporting the Twilight Realm is via pure power which would kind of mitigate the entire argument of them not physically appearing to be size due to them being pure power. And when is it EVER implied it's only a similar role? It's outright compared in the sense that it is the alternate world version of the sun. If you think all the Sols are small and not as big as a sun there is a large main one referred to as the sun.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
Also, the thing that gives the sun its tier is only its size. The actual energy output of the sun per second was calculated at High 6-A iirc.
Edit: Ninja'd
Click to expand...
I wasn't even referring to energy output when I said power but whatever floats your boat lol.
 
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