Major Zelda revisions

[TriforcePower1]

In that same thread it was also explained that him making the realm was the right translation. Even then, he explicitly calls it the world of the demon king (99% sure tribe is a mistranslation), so GG. At most, ask Sera or Shiro to translate it if you want to be sure.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Ah, I see. Just wanted confirmation xP

So yeah, if Demise would be weaker than ToP!Ganon, there you go. No outlier for Zant, since he is empowered by a stronger character (plus, there you have a solidified scaling).

Edit: Ah, just remembered. Even if Demise didn't created it, he did show he could warp it when he covered it in it's entirety by the thunderclouds.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I can see ToP Ganon being stronger than Demise, but currently there's no proof of that.

Anyway, outside of probably being an outlier, Zant's feat seems legit. The Master Sword glowing means that they're still in the Twilight Realm, so that means that either Zant warped it to make it similar to Hyrule or created a pocket dimension inside it, both of which would be AP based feat. Given that with the new Pocket Dimensions revisions, we don't consider stars illusions unless stated/shown otherwise, the feat itself is legit.

The question would be on whatever it is an outlier or not. I'm currently leaning that it's an outlier, but if someone makes a good argument for it to not be one, I can change idea.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I... Literally gave reasons why Ganon would be stronger, tho? xD

Demise is inferior to a piece of the Triforce, since SS!Link didn't use them in his fight with him.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Wasn't Demises weakened form, the Imprisoned, only able to actually be put down by Link needing the full Triforce to wish for his destruction? If Demise is inferior to just one piece of the Triforce and doesn't have regen beyond High-Low then why would his weakened form need a wish from the full Triforce just to be destroyed if Link only needed to get a single piece and then kill him?

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

I agree Demise should be considered lower than the TOP or on par as their feats are quite similar so i don't think it's an outlier


But that also would mean that True Form Midna is stronger than the TOP ƒÿÉ thought that could just be PIS to make the ending more dramatic

 

[Dust_Collector]

So I decided to ask several more staff members for possible input on these revisions to speed things up, although I was only able to ask 4 since I'm suddenly experiencing that glitch again where I can't comment on message walls for some reason.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Wasn't Demises weakened form, the Imprisoned, only able to actually be put down by Link needing the full Triforce to wish for his destruction? If Demise is inferior to just one piece of the Triforce and doesn't have regen beyond High-Low then why would his weakened form need a wish from the full Triforce just to be destroyed if Link only needed to get a single piece and then kill him?

Yet he didn't use it against him in the past?

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

I... Literally gave reasons why Ganon would be stronger, tho? xD

Demise is inferior to a piece of the Triforce, since SS!Link didn't use them in his fight with him.

Agreed and if Link used the Complete Triforce in the fight against Demise that means Demise would be 4-B which is definitely no the case

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

High 4-C seems to be a real outlier

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Why, exactly?

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

In what way? I actually think calling the feat an outlier is actually a stretch

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

But that also would mean that True Form Midna is stronger than the TOP ƒÿÉ thought that could just be PIS to make the ending more dramatic

Wasn't true form Midna one shotted by Zant?

And even with the fused shadow, we saw Ganon winning.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

True, but True Form Midna completely shattered the mirror of twilight while Zant could only break it into 4 peices

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

I think that's just to make the ending sadder and more emotional

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I seem to remember is because she was the Twilight Pricess or some bs like that.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Yeah that's correct I think and remeber I read something like that I'll look into it

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

I seem to remember is because she was the Twilight Pricess or some bs like that.

Your absolutely right

The Mirror of Twilight was made so that only the true ruler of the Twilight Realm would be able to completely shatter it.[13] Should an usurper try to destroy the mirror, he would only be able to break it into shards, thus proving the false kingship.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, even if Zant's High 4-C is legit, it would seem rather outlierish as he's minion inferior to Ganondorf. He was originally just a fodder character until Ganon bestowed him some of his power. Demise is also clearly above Triforce of Power Ganon as Link needed the complete Triforce's wish just to slay the Imprisoned; also, complete Triforce was agreed to be downgraded to just At least High 4-C on multiple threads back.

I agree with Triforce that at least 5-A, possibly High 5-A seems like the safest bet since flipping the Earth is a safer bet than moving the sun, and Calamity Ganon's feat was agreed still had mentions of being legit.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Even if legit, Zant's feat is an outlier. Him being on the same level of Demise or Majora is definitely an outlier.
For the current High 5-A characters, I'm fine with keeping them as they are now. Most I can accept is "At least 5-A, likely High 5-A". 4-C is just unlikely given that we see "moving" both the sun and the moon (the latter with no reason to be moved for an endless night to happen), which would make the assumption of moving the planet higher than moving the sun, especially because it's far easier to rotate the planet rather than moving the sun, both in AP and range.

Demise and Majora's feats are casual they are not stuck at High 4-C, so no he's no where near the same level as Demise nor Majora therefore I don't see anything making this an outlier. The lower end feats done by Top characters are done casual too.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yeah, even if Zant's High 4-C is legit, it would seem rather outlierish as he's minion inferior to Ganondorf.

- Then Ganon scales above. No outlier there.
Demise is also clearly above Triforce of Power Ganon as Link needed the complete Triforce's wish just to slay the Imprisoned;
- He didn't use it in any of the fights. He used it to kill him permanently, and when Demise got revived in the past, he still didn't use the triforce against him. Demise can't scale to the triforce, as such, he is likely weaker than Ganon with the ToP.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Wierd how Link needed to use the full triforce against a weakened Demise, yet could fight a full on returning demise without it.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Because he didn't need it. It simply means Link was incapable of killing him. Everytime Link defeated The Imprison, it came back stronger. He needed a way to permanently kill it, enter The Triforce.

 

[Dust_Collector]

It's so strange how Link couldn't kill the Imprisoned without the Triforce but was able to kill a much stronger Demise and seal away his essence without it not long after he had jist wished for the Imprisoneds destruction. Skyward Sword is wack.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

^amen, lol.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Because he didn't need it. It simply means Link was incapable of killing him. Everytime Link defeated The Imprison, it came back stronger. He needed a way to permanently kill it, enter The Triforce.

I was using sarcasm. smh

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Who knows, maybe Link was still empowered by Complete Triforce from a distance; otherwise, it comes from the True Master Sword being equal to the Complete Triforce. Reason Link was able to defeat Complete Triforce Ganon in A Link to the Past. Link never had the actual "True Master Sword" in WW, but went from a weakened Master Sword to a regular Master Sword. But that's kind of a derailment; keep the focus on what we do for ToP Ganon who doesn't quite scale from Demise or Majora for reasons mentioned above and on other threads.

Keep the focus on the characters currently rated as Tier 5 such as Calamity Ganon, Zant, ToP Ganon, ect. And depending on how the 4 Giants scaling goes, that could be thrown in too.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Who knows, maybe Link was still empowered by Complete Triforce from a distance; otherwise, it comes from the True Master Sword being equal to the Complete Triforce. But that's kind of a derailment;

Not stated in the game as far as I'm aware.

That would scale to base Ganon because of WW.

 

[Antvasima]

@Medeus

So what do you think needs to be changed?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't think we reached a conclusion just yet, I think the others still have more to say.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Restating my position from laat thread; don't agree with the endless night and "darkness spell around fortress" scaling, but if it's decided it does, support the "at least High 5-A, possibly 4-C".
Neutral on Zant stuff.

Adding onto this:

Zant's feat, if considered legit, shouldn't be considered an outlier. Majora is a complete non-factor regarding Triforce scaling if we don't consider the ToC scaling to base Young Link for whatever reasons (since it showed superiority to him). Demise we don't know (at best) if he should scale above ToP!Ganon, since the TP on bis game wasn't used to fight him in any of his forms.

If there is another reason for why it should be considered an outlier, it should be brought. But those two in particular, I disagree and already debated the most important one (Demise).

This is my stance regarding this.

 

[Antvasima]

@Medeus

Okay. I will unsubscribe in the meantime. You can place a note on my message wall if you need any help later on.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Can we get an official reasoning for Demise being > ToP? Didn't Demise want the triforce for himself implying it's superior to him?

 

[Dust_Collector]

He wanted the completed Triforce not just a single piece like the Triforce of Power.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

The idea that Link absolutely needed the Complete Triforce to defeat the Inprisoned is ridiculous as Link has done it before,he was just using the full Triforce to kill him permanently

And there's nothing that shows or states that he is still powered by the Triforce as he left it on Skyloft

I honestly still se now solid counter to Zant's feat as again the Triforce of Power's feats should be comparable or in or with Demise's power through their feats and Majora is a non factor here

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Can we get an official reasoning for Demise being > ToP? Didn't Demise want the triforce for himself implying it's superior to him?

Well he wanted the Full Triforce but it's still logical and not a stretch to say that the Triforce of Power is stronger or on par with Demise.Hell the things were made by the Golden Godessess.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

You know, I've sort of questioned the High 5-A key because it was a one-time feat and it was from a more experienced Ganondorf. When he might have obtained in Ocarina Ganon could have not been using the ToP to its full potential therefore scaling him to 5-A via Blood Moon. Should it also be mentioned that in Wind Waker the Tri-Force was taken away from Link at the end so he was not 5-A/High 5-A.

I'm not saying that the High 5-A feat is an outlier, it should instead get its separate key

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

He wanted the completed Triforce not just a single piece like the Triforce of Power.

My point is he views the triforce as an item above even him, why are we assuming Demise > Top with this in mind

 

[Dust_Collector]

Because viewing the whole Triforce as above himself doesn't mean he views single parts of it above himself.

 

[Konaguna]

Wtf