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Major undertale revisions

Don't use muh gameplay mechanics argument when Deltarune exists and you can be attacked in the overworld in a complete diferent way than in Undertale

Also you are the one who isn't understading me, the soul is connected to the body, after all it is the culmination of your being, my point is that just trapping the body doesn't affect the soul, but affecting the soul does affect the body, you are the one antagonizing me even though I am trying to help your point, the soulhax got downgraded because it was assumed that it hits the body and thus it damages the soul, I am arguing the contrary, it hits the soul which affects the body, chill out
 
I am going to drop this, you go there and argue whatever arguments are better for soulhax, if it isn't 10-C i don't care in this place
 
Theuser789 said:
Don't use muh gameplay mechanics argument when Deltarune exists and you can be attacked in the overworld in a complete diferent way than in Undertale

Also you are the one who isn't understading me, the soul is connected to the body, after all it is the culmination of your being, my point is that just trapping the body doesn't affect the soul, but affecting the soul does affect the body, you are the one antagonizing me even though I am trying to help your point, the soulhax got downgraded because it was assumed that it hits the body and thus it damages the soul, I am arguing the contrary, it hits the soul which affects the body, chill out
Click to expand...
Now that's an argument, anything that affects the SOUL reflects to the body, and this is fine and doesn't contradict nothing, you could've just be more specific before.

In this case I agree with UT SOUL hax working like that.
 
"First: What you linked to me was just sans saying to Frisk "You'll have to learn to QUIT", how's that related?
Second: Headcanon, you can see Flowey messing up with anything, I'm pretty curious to see how that's not Low 2-C, since him crashing the game SAVE file, messing up with the reality and destroying anything isn't a Low 2-C feat. Because Undertale is metafictional, so since destroying the entirely of the game means 2-B potency, I really don't see Flowey's feat not being Low 2-C, given the context."
>I wanna note in context when Flowey did his game crashing feat a SAVE FILE still existed and he EE'd the world before destroying his SAVE file. In Chara's feat, no SAVE Files existed anymore and they didn't EE the world before destroying it.
 
>Sans is telling the anomaly to quit, aka closing the game and leaving. Even chara treats the player quitting as leaving to another game (only destroying the game to force the player to move on). Closing the window is never treat as destruction. "how thats not low 2-C" is burden of proof. There is no evidence that messing with the games title and intro equates to reality on a universal scale. And again, save file is not low 2-C. ive explained why.

>Its literally a fake underground sun that shoots projectiles at frisk to represent solar flares. Its not evidence at all.

>Either youre not getting what im saying or using argument by repetition. Ive said repeatedly said they have soul manip via attacking the body and soul. Since they are attacking the body in order to damage the soul as well, they are not bypassing physical defences. Your whole logic by them attacking the body and soul at once is only proving my point that monsters attacks are designed to hurt the soul by hurting the body, or hurting both at once. Which again is not durability negation. Its just soul manipulation. Monsters attacks are treat as being being able to harm the soul and non corporeal things by attacking the body (mad dummy being a good example). Thats it. Your conclusion that soul attacks are treat as physical ones has nothing to back it beyond repeating the same thing.

Flowey is unreliable here. Hes actively going out of his way to decieve frisk and is getting them to increase his lv through killing, even telling them to run into his "friendliness pellets". Lv doesnt increase physical stats. Its explicitely in the face of monsters and sans makes this clear in the judgement hall. Its literally just killing intent. Also the soul and body having the same power isnt even possible for frisk. Otherwise frisk would have the power of every monster in the underground and one shot everybody.

For users point. Sometimes it seems like frisk can move their soul when incapitated. While other times frisk is seen as moving their body and their soul moving with them to avoid attacks or even retreat. The former would sound more like astral projection for frisk and monsters being able to hit the soul outside the body...

Anyway ill drop this for now since this is derailing and its best to work on the scaling first, the only point im making in the op is that frisk uses magical defences to negate attacks proving soul attacks at least do extra damage. If you want full durability negation then its prolly better for another revision.

>No. Flowey with determination being able to ressurect from nothing using time reversal does not mean frisk using determination regenerate him from zero without time hax. They are completely different abilities.

>My logic doesnt imply all attacks are completely fake at all. My point is the fact that the attack is likely not created in the exact same manner as normal sound. And even if it is, it does not have the properties as sound and we have an example of shyren creating attacks in the exact same fashion that dont move at a consistent speed like sound would. Also i never said the attack was subsonic. I referred to the past revisions which had undynes spears as subsonic. Stop strawmanning.
 
Okay so its best to focus on the scaling for now because trying to handle all this at once is just cluttering everything up. Ive uploaded the sans calc into a blog so it can be reviewed. Also put the explanation page into a blog and made it easier to understand so seriously please read it if you havent already.
If the calc is accepted its about seeing approving the scaling method itself. Mori and efficiente do seem to be in favour of saikous method though everyone else whos commented is at least in favour of frisk adapting to monsters through determination.
And if the calc is rejected then its about deciding sans tier, adjusting the scaling to that plus whats mentioned above
Also gonna message knowledgeable staff and some others to help with this.
 
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So much wrong with this...

>I wanna note in context when Flowey did his game crashing feat a SAVE FILE still existed and he EE'd the world before destroying his SAVE file. In Chara's feat, no SAVE Files existed anymore and they didn't EE the world before destroying it.

And? What does it relate? Nothing existed anymore in the timeline, this hella implies it being a Low 2-C feat.

>Sans is telling the anomaly to quit, aka closing the game and leaving. Even chara treats the player quitting as leaving to another game (only destroying the game to force the player to move on). Closing the window is never treat as destruction. "how thats not low 2-C" is burden of proof. There is no evidence that messing with the games title and intro equates to reality on a universal scale. And again, save file is not low 2-C. ive explained why.

He wasn't talking to the Player, he was talking to Frisk, since they're the one who committed genocide (unless now he can see the face of the player instead of Frisk's and understand how many times they died). He later, when he was talking about the Anomaly, he was talking about Frisk's ability to LOAD, because they're the one which keep LOADing. Plus I never stated that closing the window is destruction, but just a supportive feat for his Low 2-C rating. Same with the SAVE File, is a time-based ability destroyed with physical blows, only a Low 2-C character can do such.

>Either youre not getting what im saying or using argument by repetition. Ive said repeatedly said they have soul manip via attacking the body and soul. Since they are attacking the body in order to damage the soul as well, they are not bypassing physical defences. Your whole logic by them attacking the body and soul at once is only proving my point that monsters attacks are designed to hurt the soul by hurting the body, or hurting both at once. Which again is not durability negation. Its just soul manipulation. Monsters attacks are treat as being being able to harm the soul and non corporeal things by attacking the body (mad dummy being a good example). Thats it. Your conclusion that soul attacks are treat as physical ones has nothing to back it beyond repeating the same thing.

I thought that my discussion with @Theuser789 did help, since even DELTARUNE is an evidence for this argument.

>Flowey is unreliable here. Hes actively going out of his way to decieve frisk and is getting them to increase his lv through killing, even telling them to run into his "friendliness pellets". Lv doesnt increase physical stats. Its explicitely in the face of monsters and sans makes this clear in the judgement hall. Its literally just killing intent. Also the soul and body having the same power isnt even possible for frisk. Otherwise frisk would have the power of every monster in the underground and one shot everybody.

He wasn't lying, he truly aimed for the SOUL, so he said the truth about it. Sans hella implied that the more the LV increases, the more the other STATS increase, and you can see here how. Plus is hella possible that the SOUL is powerful as the body, nothing said that if Frisk kills someone, they gain the power of who they killed. From where did you take that?

>For users point. Sometimes it seems like frisk can move their soul when incapitated. While other times frisk is seen as moving their body and their soul moving with them to avoid attacks or even retreat. The former would sound more like astral projection for frisk and monsters being able to hit the soul outside the body...

The monster aim for the SOUL, so they kinda can act accordly to defend it.

>No. Flowey with determination being able to ressurect from nothing using time reversal does not mean frisk using determination regenerate him from zero without time hax. They are completely different abilities.

I fail to see your logic. Base DT sees as death both EE and Regular Death, so if a DT so powerful that can directly regenerate from Death, why shouldn't be able to resurrect from EE if a waaay weaker DT can save someone from it? Realy, how so?

>My logic doesnt imply all attacks are completely fake at all. My point is the fact that the attack is likely not created in the exact same manner as normal sound. And even if it is, it does not have the properties as sound and we have an example of shyren creating attacks in the exact same fashion that dont move at a consistent speed like sound would. Also i never said the attack was subsonic. I referred to the past revisions which had undynes spears as subsonic. Stop strawmanning.

Uhm, Syren kinda attacks from just singing, so it a point at all, is just Frisk fast enough to avoid sound and is a thing that is shown even in DR. You're contradicting Undertale style again, since you see fire being trow and bounching as bullets or some bones moving on skateboards, so again, what stops it from being sound-based since is generated from literally a bark?

Plus you're scaling is already wrong since there are still lots of characters who have their heat-based feats as AP reasons, so the already present 9-A ratings are still better than yours.

And yes, we'll continue this argument since you've included the God Tiers here, and I'm against your suggestions and I'll try to oppose to them, since I want to upgrade them.
 
"And? What does it relate? Nothing existed anymore in the timeline, this hella implies it being a Low 2-C feat."
>Yes because he erased it, not physically destroyed it. Afterwards when he destroys the SAVE File it's a non-feat since nothing exists there anymore.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
"And? What does it relate? Nothing existed anymore in the timeline, this hella implies it being a Low 2-C feat."
>Yes because he erased it, not physically destroyed it. Afterwards when he destroys the SAVE File it's a non-feat since nothing exists there anymore.
Click to expand...
Zeno has his 2-C rating because of his EE, Dark Dragon and Madoka have their ratings because of reset, I don't see how Flowey doesen't have a Low 2-C feat since he erased a timeline, him messing with the SAVE File and the Datas are supporting evidences for his Low 2-C rating.
 
Pretty sure Zeno's is based on the fact that erasure is correlated with destruction in DBS and it's shown his erasure is via a ki blast which scales to physicals in DBS, Madoka's is not via reset: "(Destroyed the concept of witches in every universe before ascending to a higher level of existence to become a conceptual entity. Her multiverse was later confirmed to contain infinite universes in Puella Magi Homura Tamura. The Law of Cycles encompasses the infinite multiverse as well as the nonexistent multiverse beyond it. Has shown to be on par with Ultimate Kriemhild Gretchen)"

Dark Dragon's directly correlates that he can destroy or reset the universe.

Erasing a timeline would be erasure hax, so he can get Low 2-C via erasure hax but it wouldn't scale to his physicals, the SAVE File had nothing in it, so he did the equivalent of destroying nothingness. I don't fully remember him even messing with the data on the same scale as Chara.
 
The former unless there's proof it's just hax, but idk anymore this wikia's opinnions changed completelly in this move
 
>Pretty sure Zeno's is based on the fact that erasure is correlated with destruction in DBS and it's shown his erasure is via a ki blast which scales to physicals in DBS

His technique is completely unrelated to Hakai, and is shown to istantly EE things unlike Hakai.

>Madoka's is not via reset: "(Destroyed the concept of witches in every universe before ascending to a higher level of existence to become a conceptual entity. Her multiverse was later confirmed to contain infinite universes in Puella Magi Homura Tamura. The Law of Cycles encompasses the infinite multiverse as well as the nonexistent multiverse beyond it. Has shown to be on par with Ultimate Kriemhild Gretchen)"

Madoka erasing the concept of witches reset the whole multiverse as heavily implied from the whole plot of Rebellion movie, so with your logic only her concept hax is 2-A.

Dark Dragon is shown to be able to reset all the time, aka all the multiverse, plus, destroyed, in context means erasure, since if a good heart awakens the Dragon, the latter will destroy the concept of evil, so destroying everything means destroying all the concepts in the verse. Plus is hella implied that is EE, since even the Dragon would be affected if is an evil heart (even if it decides to erase itself, is always because of hax).
 
>Erasing a timeline would be erasure hax, so he can get Low 2-C via erasure hax but it wouldn't scale to his physicals, the SAVE File had nothing in it, so he did the equivalent of destroying nothingness. I don't fully remember him even messing with the data on the same scale as Chara.

First: Destroying anything of a timeline is always Low 2-C, since anything, even the space-time, would be gone. The fact that he destroyed a time-based ability with mere strenght is enough to show 4-D potency. Plus he did mess up with the files, looking at the window name.
 
"His technique is completely unrelated to Hakai, and is shown to istantly EE things unlike Hakai."
>It's via a ki blast as I mentioned, so it's legitimately physicals in that case.

"Madoka erasing the concept of witches reset the whole multiverse as heavily implied from the whole plot of Rebellion movie, so with you're logic only her concept hax is 2-A."
>Uh no, it wouldn't, since in the same reasoning she literally transcends to a higher layer of existence.

"Dark Dragon is shown to be able to reset all the time, aka all the multiverse, plus, destroyed, in context means erasure, since if a good heart awakens the Dragon, the latter will destroy the concept of evil, so destroying everything means destroying all the concepts in the verse. Plus is hella implied that is EE, since even the Dragon would be affected if is an evil heart."
>Well firstly, he's Low 2-C on the profile, secondly that does not mean erasure whatsoever, all it states in that scan is that everything would be obliterated. The interview you linked I legit CTRL+F'd erase and it was nowhere there, this is all merely conjecture with nothing concrete.
 
"First: Destroying anything of a timeline is always Low 2-C, since anything, even the space-time, would be gone. The fact that he destroyed a time-based ability with mere strenght is enough to show 4-D potency. Plus he did mess up with the files, looking at the window name."
>That's neat, never said that wouldn't be Low 2-C I said he erased everything with hax, the window name is hax too. The only physical feat is him tearing that SAVE FILE in half and the timeline was already gone by the point he did that.
 
I'm against your suggestions and I'll try to oppose to them, since I want to upgrade them.

Youre not even trying to be open or reasonable about this at all.

>Flowey did not erase everything in the timeline. He just distorted the intro, crashed the game and fights you in an empty room. What dont you get about this? Everything in the genocide route including saving and loading is pointed on the player. Frisk never makes these decisions. His personality and face are deliberately left ambigious and there for the player to decide and influence. Ive explained this in the blog. Closing the window is not evidence period. Destroying a time based ability is not low 2-C. Its hax. The save file is only a small part of the timeline and isnt low 2-C for the same reason we dont give the likes of pelinal the same rating.

Erasing a timeline is low 2-C. But flowey didnt do this.

I fail to see your logic. Base DT sees as death both EE and Regular Death, so if a DT so powerful that can directly regenerate from Death, why shouldn't be able to resurrect from EE if a waaay weaker DT can save someone from it? Realy, how so?

>Because "base determination" doesnt do this using regeneration. It does it by reversing time. Directly regenerating from death is a completely seperate ability it offers. This is just an association fallacy.

>You didnt even adress my point with the sound. Shyren does it through singing, yet her attacks explicitely do not follow sound properties or move as a constant speed. Undertale doesnt scale to deltarune. Its a completely different story and reality. Stop bringing it up.

Well heat feat downgrades were been made for minecraft mobs and every staff member i have seen talking about this so. Seriously, just ask a staff member if you really dont know whats happening with heat or make a revision on those characters with heat feats.
 
>It's via a ki blast as I mentioned, so it's legitimately physicals in that case.

So now surrounding things with a light and erasing whatever is surrounded from it from closing the hand is a blast?

>Uh no, it wouldn't, since in the same reasoning she literally transcends to a higher layer of existence.

So now anyone who becomes 4D from 3D is 2-A?

>Well firstly, he's Low 2-C on the profile, secondly that does not mean erasure whatsoever, all it states in that scan is that everything would be obliterated. The interview you linked I legit CTRL+F'd erase and it was nowhere there, this is all merely conjecture with nothing concrete.

Earthbound god tiers will be upgraded to 2-B/Low 1-C soon, I'm in an EB Discord group made of vsb members and the CRT will be done soon enough. So yeah the Low 2-C rating is already outdated.

Plus you don't really see what's an implication, if Dark Dragon was awaken from a good heart, the concept of evil will be destroyed (and here destroying a concept equates to erasing it, since we're talking about metaphysical stuff) and reality will be reset, if is awaken from an evil heart, ANYTHING will be gone, even the dragon itself, is logical that he's erasing anything.

>That's neat, never said that wouldn't be Low 2-C I said he erased everything with hax, the window name is hax too. The only physical feat is him tearing that SAVE FILE in half and the timeline was already gone by the point he did that.

A character destroying a Tier 2 structure with EE was never counted as a smurf hax unless is stated so/implied from the context. Frisk even tanked the rewrite (unless you show me clear proofs that they died from that destruction) and Flowey can still one-shot them, so he still scales from their durability.

>Youre not even trying to be open or reasonable about this at all.

I'm just showing to ya evidences from the game that you keep refusing...

>Because "base determination" doesnt do this using regeneration. It does it by reversing time. Directly regenerating from death is a completely seperate ability it offers. This is just an association fallacy.

Another strawman, I never said that Flowey regenerate, I just said that base DT can recover from EE via time manip, and is not associaton fallacy where Death for DT means both regular one and EE, since in both cases the LOAD works in the same way, so, like the LOAD works for both regular death and EE, Full DT regenerates from regular death and EE. Simple.

>You didnt even adress my point with the sound. Shyren does it through singing, yet her attacks explicitely do not follow sound properties or move as a constant speed. Undertale doesnt scale to deltarune. Its a completely different story and reality. Stop bringing it up.

And with you're logic Dreemurr attacks aren't fire manip because their fire doesen't follow irl fire properties. Also UT scales, especially when WoG stated that the DR universe is parallel to UTs and the SOUL is not only descibed like Undertale one, but the fights follow the same mechanics too.

>Well heat feat downgrades were been made for minecraft mobs and every staff member i have seen talking about this so. Seriously, just ask a staff member if you really dont know whats happening or make a revision on those characters with heat feats.

Minecraft =/= Pokémon, Bleach, Brawlhalla, Pixel Gun 3D and Digimon, just because a verse dosen't count a type of feat, it doesen't mean that any other verse shouldn't count them as well.
 
StrymULTRA said:
>It's via a ki blast as I mentioned, so it's legitimately physicals in that case.

So now surrounding things with a light and erasing whatever is surrounded from it from closing the hand is a blast?

>Uh no, it wouldn't, since in the same reasoning she literally transcends to a higher layer of existence.

So now anyone who becomes 4D from 3D is 2-A?

>Well firstly, he's Low 2-C on the profile, secondly that does not mean erasure whatsoever, all it states in that scan is that everything would be obliterated. The interview you linked I legit CTRL+F'd erase and it was nowhere there, this is all merely conjecture with nothing concrete.

Earthbound god tiers will be upgraded to 2-B/Low 1-C soon, I'm in an EB Discord group made of vsb members and the CRT will be done soon enough. So yeah the Low 2-C rating is already outdated.

Plus you don't really see what's an implication, if Dark Dragon was awaken from a good heart, the concept of evil will be destroyed (and here destroying a concept equates to erasing it, since we're talking about metaphysical stuff) and reality will be reset, if is awaken from an evil heart, ANYTHING will be gone, even the dragon itself, is logical that he's erasing anything.

>That's neat, never said that wouldn't be Low 2-C I said he erased everything with hax, the window name is hax too. The only physical feat is him tearing that SAVE FILE in half and the timeline was already gone by the point he did that.

A character destroying a Tier 2 structure with EE was never counted as a smurf hax unless is stated so/implied from the context. Frisk even tanked the rewrite (unless you show me clear proofs that they died from that destruction) and Flowey can still one-shot them, so he still scales from their durability.
Click to expand...
The profile of Zen'o's notes it as such so... yeah, if you have a problem with that you should probs make a CRT on it.

Not at all what I said but if you wanna strawman, sure.

Seeing as I'm in the EB discord myself (and am a direct contributor of these upgrades) I'm aware of this, but why are you using a future revision thread that has not been accepted yet over the currently accepted profile? That's counter-intuitive.

That's a random stretch, sure destroying a concept is erasing but trying to suddenly correlate that means that the universe being destroyed is erasure is a random assumption with no basis other then what you think is logical. Especially when both work in different ways.

Can I see examples of this? It sounds weird to me how EEing a timeline is low 2-C when that's erasure hax, and has nothing to do with physicals. Sounds like that's something that should be changed, honestly. Frisk resisted the EE but idk what you mean by "tanking a rewrite" the only destruction shown in that scene was the SAVE File. So no, he really doesn't scale from Frisk' dura and even if we wanted to consider that Frisk's dura that'd be an outlier since he literally lost his DT in that scene since Flowey's DT overridden his. A non-DT Frisk defo shouldn't have Low 2-C dura.
 
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Theuser789 said:
You can still have DT without being in control of the timeline, like Undyne the Undying for example
Click to expand...

You can keep the basic abilities such as high willpower and such but you get none of the huge amps and such is my point basically. So replace "non-DT Frisk" with "lesser DT Frisk".
 
Another strawman, I never said that Flowey regenerate, I just said that base DT can recover from EE via time manip, and is not associaton fallacy where Death for DT means both regular one and EE, since in both cases the LOAD works in the same way, so, like the LOAD works for both regular death and EE, Full DT regenerates from regular death and EE. Simple.

Never claimed you said that. Youre misinterpreting everything i say. "load works for death and ee, rull dt regenerates from regular death and ee" This is in itself a false equivilence. Load and regen are completely different abilities. Im dropping this and anything that is unrelated to the op because this is getting ridiculous.

And with you're logic Dreemurr attacks aren't fire manip because their fire doesen't follow irl fire properties. Also UT scales, especially when WoG stated that the DR universe is parallel to UTs and the SOUL is not only descibed like Undertale one, but the fights follow the same mechanics too.

False equivilence and repeating what youve already brought up. If they explicitely dont follow real life properties then they shouldnt be assumed to have properties like having the speed of sound without any evidence, when attacks like this have shown not to move at this speed. Deltarune cant even be in the same multiverse as undertale. Wog also states that what you do in ut has no affect on deltarune. Having some similarities doesnt mean theyre the same.

Minecraft =/= Pokémon, Bleach, Brawlhalla, Pixel Gun 3D and Digimon, just because a verse dosen't count a type of feat, it doesen't mean that any other verse shouldn't count them as well.

NO. It has nothing to do with "what the verse counts". It got downgraded because surviving in a heated environment isnt a durability feat anymore. Go ask staff if you dont believe me. How hard is this?

Also waiting for staff to get here so we can better discuss that sans calc and the proposed scaling in the op.
 
>The profile of Zen'o's notes it as such so... yeah, if you have a problem with that you should probs make a CRT on it.

Noticed just now, not that I care about Zeno anyways.

>Not at all what I said but if you wanna strawman, sure

Except that you used the "came to another plane of existence" as reasoning to her being physically 2-A, but ok.

>That's a random stretch, sure destroying a concept is erasing but trying to suddenly correlate that means that the universe being destroyed is erasure is a random assumption with no basis other then what you think is logical. Especially when both work in different ways.

The vid I've send says that EVERYTHING will be destroyed, not just the concept of evil, is pretty logical to say that any concept will be erased from the Dragon.

>Can I see examples of this? It sounds weird to me how EEing a timeline is low 2-C when that's erasure hax, and has nothing to do with physicals. Sounds like that's something that should be changed, honestly. Frisk resisted the EE but idk what you mean by "tanking a rewrite" the only destruction shown in that scene was the SAVE File. So no, he really doesn't scale from Frisk' dura and even if we wanted to consider that Frisk's dura that'd be an outlier since he literally lost his DT in that scene since Flowey's DT overridden his. A non-DT Frisk defo shouldn't have Low 2-C dura.

As said before, Frisk had still DT, also him tanking Flowey's EE with his new DT (despite being inferior to Flowey's) is definitely not an outlier, since it was implied that their DT always increase in difficult situations (like against Asgore, or where they were still determineted enough to fight Flowey despite that power boost), so Frisk having Low 2-C durability isn't an outlier.

And yes, found some characters who are physically Tier 2 via EE, so Flowey being like them wouldn't contradict anything.

>Never claimed you said that. Youre misinterpreting everything i say. "load works for death and ee, rull dt regenerates from regular death and ee" This is in itself a false equivilence. Load and regen are completely different abilities.

How's exactly a false equivalence? If base DR resurrects from death EE, why wouldn't an overpowered EE not resurrecting from EE but just from death? I've been asking this and I never got a good answer.

> Im dropping this and anything that is unrelated to the op because this is getting ridiculous.

We can make only a CRT per verse at time, so is not against the rules incorporating mine in yours.

>False equivilence and repeating what youve already brought up. If they explicitely dont follow real life properties then they shouldnt be assumed to have properties like having the speed of sound without any evidence, when attacks like this have shown not to move at this speed. Deltarune cant even be in the same multiverse as undertale.

"Expliticely", lol, nothing said so, the yours in an headcanon, and you're contradicting the UT style. So now despite Toriel said that the hers is Fire magic, now her fire isn't fire because the fire doesen'r respect some properties of irl fire lol.

>Wog also states that what you do in ut has no affect on deltarune. Having some similarities doesnt mean theyre the same.

I will say that basically, what you're seeing here is not the world of UNDERTALE.
UNDERTALE's world and ending are the same as however you left them.
If everyone was happy in your ending, the people in the UNDERTALE world will still be happy.
So, please don't worry about those characters, and that world. It will remain untouched.
To rephrase that, DELTARUNE's world is a different one.
With different characters, that have lived different lives.
A whole new story will happen...

I fail to see how's not a different timeline, especially where's different versions of Dreemurrs, Alphys and Undyne who lived lives completely different from UT counterparts, how that's not a parallel reality to Undertale?

>NO. It has nothing to do with "what the verse counts". It got downgraded because surviving in a heated environment isnt a durability feat anymore. Go ask staff if you dont believe me. How hard is this?

Well, then why these verses didn't got downgraded then? Is kinda weird that only Minecraft got that.
 
"Except that you used the "came to another plane of existence" as reasoning to her being physically 2-A, but ok."

>Uh that's not what it says at all, it says she transcended to a higher plane of existence above the multiverse, so you clearly completely misread me here.

"The vid I've send says that EVERYTHING will be destroyed, not just the concept of evil, is pretty logical to say that any concept will be erased from the Dragon."
>Ok you misread me once again, firstly concept of evil is erased if a good heart awakens the Dragon, not the other way around. Also what it says specifically is "However, if the one who needs the Dragon's power has a heart of evil, that power will obey all that is evil. It's very possible that everything could be completely destroyed simply to satisfy wicked ambition." I don't know about you, but that does not all indicate erasure to me, that indicates physical destruction.


"As said before, Frisk had still DT,"
>And as said before it doesn't change much and still was my point irregardless, so this "as said before" isn't even useable frankly.

"also him tanking Flowey's EE with his new DT (despite being inferior to Flowey's) is definitely not an outlier, since it was implied that their DT always increase in difficult situations (like against Asgore, or where they were still determineted enough to fight Flowey despite that power boost), so Frisk having Low 2-C durability isn't an outlier."
>DT only does huge increases like that when Frisk reaches full determination, he had literally no way to reach full determination in that scene because his DT was extremely low since Flowey's overrided his. So no, it is an outlier if we took him resisting EE as a tanking feat valid.

"And yes, found some characters who are physically Tier 2 via EE, so Flowey being like them wouldn't contradict anything."
>Lavos literally physically destroys universes in his dream devourer fight, Demigra fused with something that has control over all of time and space and again, DB verse EE is aligned with destructive potency, Miyuki Sone looks like a Monika situation where she really shouldn't physically scale to the erasure.
 
>Im dropping this stuff because its easier for us to try and focus on one general topic at a time and mid godly can be for another revision or way later since it doesnt affect this revision either way. Idk how to better explain it to you other than determination only ever recovers you from existence erasure by time manipulation and ressurection. And the regen it offers only ever reaches low godly.

>I have explained over and over and over again why it is not following real sound properties and you are refusing to listen and just repeating yourself. Only sound waves move at the speed of sound, never more or less. If these attacks move at varying speeds, then they cannot be assumed to move at sound speed. That includes someone attacking in the exact same way as shyren with the same magical nature.

>You debunked yourself. Its not the world of undertale. Its untouched by anything that happens in undertale (including mutliversal game ending). Deltarunes reality is completely different to undertale. That in no way means its a parrallel universe in the same multiverse in the same game. This doesnt prove parallel universe at all. Youre getting these conclusions from nowhere.
 
Last edited:
What are the summarised staff conclusions here so far?
 
@Antvasima

Okay so its best to focus on the scaling for now because trying to handle all this at once is just cluttering everything up. Ive uploaded the sans calc into a blog so it can be reviewed. Also put the explanation page into a blog and made it easier to understand so seriously please read it if you havent already.
If the calc is accepted its about seeing approving the scaling method itself. Mori and efficiente do seem to be in favour of saikous method though everyone else whos commented is at least in favour of frisk adapting to monsters through determination.
And if the calc is rejected then its about deciding sans tier, adjusting the scaling to that plus whats mentioned above
Also gonna message knowledgeable staff and some others to help with this.
Click to expand...
Ive messaged them but none have arrived yet. Mori and efficiente did comment a while ago but havent updated on anything. And ive messaged them as well. And saikou was against these revisions earlier due to his own method which almost everyone here seems to find shaky.

So basically staff havent rly concluded anything yet
 
>Ok you misread me once again, firstly concept of evil is erased if a good heart awakens the Dragon, not the other way around. Also what it says specifically is "However, if the one who needs the Dragon's power has a heart of evil, that power will obey all that is evil. It's very possible that everything could be completely destroyed simply to satisfy wicked ambition." I don't know about you, but that does not all indicate erasure to me, that indicates physical destruction.

So now erasing anything other than the concept of evil doesen't imply all the concepts? What kind of logic is this...?

>DT only does huge increases like that when Frisk reaches full determination, he had literally no way to reach full determination in that scene because his DT was extremely low since Flowey's overrided his. So no, it is an outlier if we took him resisting EE as a tanking feat valid.

Undyne could increase her DT to reach Undying state despite her DT was still way inferior to Frisk's (yes, because in Neutral she just dies but in Genocide her DT increases with the need of protecting the monsterkind and humankind from Frisk, allowing her to reach the Undying form), so Frisk did like Undyne against Flowey. So it being an outlier makes no sense.

>Lavos literally physically destroys universes in his dream devourer fight

Hm, no?

>Im dropping this stuff because its easier for us to try and focus on one general topic at a time

You tried to downgrade the God tiers for completely different reasons from the reason you want to downgrade the low tiers and now me saying the mine on God tiers is too much and derailing? Lolk

>and mid godly can be for another revision or way later. Idk how to better explain it to you other than determination only ever recovers you from existence erasure by time manipulation and ressurection. And the regen it offers only ever reaches low godly.

Saying just "he recovered from EE via time manip" isn't a debunk, since weak DT can resurrect from both death and EE via LOAD. Frisk in the Asriel fight couldn't LOAD, so they had to resurrect from Death, so why thy shouldn't be able to return from EE with the same DT they had in the Asriel fight if the max EE can directly regenerate from Death, which in the verse means also EE?

>I have explained over and over and over again why it is not following real sound properties and you are refusing to listen and just repeating yourself. Only sound waves move at the speed of sound, never more or less. If these attacks move at varying speeds, then they cannot be assumed to move at sound speed. That includes someone attacking in the exact same way as shyren with the same magical nature.

The fact that only soundwaves can be Subsonic is stupid, since there are verses which threat sound-based attacks which aren't truly soundwaves as at least subsonic for example Pokémon with the SonicBoom move.

>You debunked yourself. Its not the world of undertale. Its untouched by anything that happens in undertale (including mutliversal game ending). Deltarunes reality is completely different to undertale. That in no way means its a parrallel universe in the same multiverse in the same game. This doesnt prove parallel universe at all. Youre getting these conclusions from nowhere.

You can see Chara nuking the reality and the game files, saying "let's erase the next world" and likely appearing in Deltarune too, plus Toby developed UT and DR in the same time, meaning that he wants to correlate the games somehow. Plus, a parallel universe most of time has different versions of the same person and/or event, how's DR not a parallel universe to UT, since it has that stuff too?
 
"So now erasing anything other than the concept of evil doesen't imply all the concepts? What kind of logic is this...?"
>I legit don't even know what you're trying to say here. Nothing in the evil side of Dark Dragon at all implies he's destroying concepts. Him erasing the concept of evil is done when a good heart is presented to him. Word your point better here.

"Undyne could increase her DT to reach Undying state despite her DT was still way inferior to Frisk's (yes, because in Neutral she just dies but in Genocide her DT increases with the need of protecting the monsterkind and humankind from Frisk, allowing her to reach the Undying form), so Frisk did like Undyne against Flowey. So it being an outlier makes no sense."
>Undyne could increase herself to a state where she was still roughly around the same level as Frisk, she just had better resistance now to his killing intent. Even then she never shot up to Low 2-C so I don't know why you used her as an example.

"Hm, no?"
>That's the 2-A scan firstly, secondly that's not talking about EE. He also physically devours dreams.
 
>I legit don't even know what you're trying to say here. Nothing in the evil side of Dark Dragon at all implies he's destroying concepts. Him erasing the concept of evil is done when a good heart is presented to him. Word your point better here.

You know, if someone erases the concept of evil in the best situation, but erases anything else in the worst, is safe to tell that any other concept is gone in the second case, since not only the evil is gone, but also all the other concepts.

>Undyne could increase herself to a state where she was still roughly around the same level as Frisk, she just had better resistance now to his killing intent. Even then she never shot up to Low 2-C so I don't know why you used her as an example.

When did I say that Undyne became Low 2-C? I just said that as she powered up her DT, but it was still weaker than Genocide Frisk's, Full DT Frisk did the same against Photoshop Flowey, so they powering up to the point to be Low 2-C and being able to be a fight to Flowey wouldn't be weird, since there's already a similar situation of "boosting the DT against a stronger DT user, but having it still weaker".
 
Mitch:

Thank you for helping out.
 
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