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I know i havent told many people much about this or made this all that public but i might as well get this out the way despite me being years overdue doing this. So undertales tiering is broken seemingly due to excessive nitpicking and due to the lores supposed vagueness (it seriously isnt vague beyond stats scaling and how to treat the battle board system). And this revision is here to get agreement mostly on the games narrative and hopefully wrap up most of the unnecessary confusion related to the scaling.
Rant aside, this explanation page has been made to summarise the entire cosmology and rules of the verse that is made clear, mainly the nature of souls and determination, the basis for the characters abilities and changes, how manipulating "the game" works etc. And additionally this sandbox to cover some misconceptions.
The New Scaling:
9-A is unfortunately going since heat tanking feats no longer qualify
While statistics including attack, defence and hp are all cannon and HEAVILY established rules in the verse. They lead to many inconsistencies and don’t give the best representation of where characters are. Despite this it makes no sense to outright disregard them otherwise were left with nothing to go on and completely throwing away established rules in the story in favour of what works better for scaling. Heres an easy solution to that problem.
Cannon information (Statements, characters being canonically stronger than another, etc) > In game showings (characters fighting alongside other characters, basically most things a character can do in combat mode) > Attack stats (individual cut and dry stats which are easier to work with. Should factor into an opponents durability as well unless they are treat as a glass cannon/stone wall) > Defence and hp stats (Two different factors playing into a durability rating and generally the most inconsistent. The former deciding how much damage they will recieve and the latter deciding how much damage they can take. Should be normally disregarded unless theres any specific circumstances where its safe to do so)
Additionally monster stats should not scale to frisks ingame stats at all since they function far differently and leads to way to many contradictions and inconsistencies. Based on what we have to work with. This is how the verses scaling should go:
For weaknesses. Asriel with one soul is weakened down near the level of normal humans when faced with bloodlust and off guard due to being able to take hits from them in this state before eventually dying. High tier monsters against bloodlust scaling to asgoreare weakened to the level of floweys attack potency who could never make it past Asgore without Frisks help, but can kill him when hes reduced to low hp. Flowey is a generally bloodlusted character and shows this mentality throughout the game. Mid tier monsters who scale to papyrus would be weakened between the level of monster kid and ruins monsters based on his genocide stats dropping to 3. Extreme bloodlust would render monsters even weaker based on damage.
Now onto all the ability changes.
Monsters soul manip can ignore a small level of durability. But not to the point where they can badly hurt someone tiers beyond them and this can be negated through either magical defences or higher durability. Monsters also gain soul resistence due to their physical bodies being attuned to their souls, and any attack done on their body equating to soul damage and visa versa. Additionally, everyone gains heat resistence, as even extremely weak monsters such as sans, alphys and even spiders can survive in the hotlands. Monsters attacks including the weapons and armour they make due to being magical, are attuned to their souls and are centered around emotion. When refusing to fight and/or facing a bloodlusted opponent. They become vulnerable to these attacks due to emotional distancing.
The amalgamates gain Data Manipulation, Reality Warping, Information Manipulation and Power Nullification (through registering attacks as invalid), memory head should also have technology manipulation for corrupting frisks phone. The first three abilities are also given to photoshop flowey, asriel, chara and the player.
The amalgamates just have low-high regen only as they have no reason to scale to frisk full determination.
Save and load shouldnt fall under timeline destruction. The consuming of timelines does not mean the literal destruction of them based on the context and lack of evidence. This likely only falls under time freeze due to the stopping of these timelines, but only through reloading. Users of save and load gain type 8 immortality due to being reliant and being capable of ressurecting through the determination they posess.
Sans gains outright durability negation due to him poisoning frisks soul directly to negate durability and passing through physical defences entirely.
Chara while posessing frisk is not limited to the genocide route and doesnt scale to undyne the undying directly due to using extreme bloodlust to weaken them mostly. They simply have frisks normal stats. The player would be the same when posessing frisk. Chara is also reliant on the players determination and is what allows them to exist.
Photoshop flowey has bfr for throwing the player out the game, dimensional travel and pocket reality manipulation for his manipulation of save files.
Matched save and load users dont have their memories erased from repeated deaths. This was the memories of everyone else being erased not the user. And was happening from frisk dying and reforming.
Frisks armour should be factored in as soul resistence. It is created through monsters expressing themselves and primarily offers magical defences mostly explained in the explanation page.
Speed downgrade:
For starters. Ruins monsters should be normal human. They are not superior to a minimally determined frisk and shouldnt be assumed faster.
Secondly. I originally upgraded the verses speed to supersonic under the basis that "it makes more sense to assume greater dogs barks to be sound turned into magic than sound turned into magic than magical bark shaped projectiles". Even though i still agree with the fact that attacks in undertale shouldnt immediately be written off as fake (so fire attacks gives you fire manip, water attacks give you water manip etc), this is well, entirely based on "this assumption sounds better" and overall shaky at best. So its time for me to eat my own words.
Greater dogs barks however directly comes from the source of something that can logically produce sound and does so with the action that creates real sound (making noise by barking) which at least gives some support for it being valid. The projectiles being viewed as the word bark shows that the projectiles themselves are representation of the barks themselves, which is a sound. And do add on to that, the barking sound effect is silent, which is normally not the case when a dog barks as seen by other instances such as with lesser dog, we actually hear the bark (or see it in a speech bubble) meaning that the sound itself must have either be converted into something that isnt a normal soundwave, or just not exist to begin with.
Well. Monsters attacks are based on emotion and expressing themselves. Greater dogs barks coming directly from his voice and then being given magical properties being sound in an attack form is questionable based on this and almost no attack being created like this. Plus have shyren who does this exact same thing, but with musical notes instead of barks and his only gets them a possible transonic rating, because sound only works at one speed and musical notes having controlled movement speed like this goes against them being transonic. So shyrens sound attacks go at the set speed of sound, then why should we assume greater dogs barks function any different?
Contradictions aside, supersonic has nothing to support it beyond "it works better" and is virtually a gag and functions nothing like sound beyond constant speed in greater dogs case and may be a representation of sound. And im pretty sure theirs more explanations to what the barks are than the few possibilities i painted out. So the old subsonic ratings should come back.
Rant aside, this explanation page has been made to summarise the entire cosmology and rules of the verse that is made clear, mainly the nature of souls and determination, the basis for the characters abilities and changes, how manipulating "the game" works etc. And additionally this sandbox to cover some misconceptions.
The New Scaling:
9-A is unfortunately going since heat tanking feats no longer qualify
While statistics including attack, defence and hp are all cannon and HEAVILY established rules in the verse. They lead to many inconsistencies and don’t give the best representation of where characters are. Despite this it makes no sense to outright disregard them otherwise were left with nothing to go on and completely throwing away established rules in the story in favour of what works better for scaling. Heres an easy solution to that problem.
Cannon information (Statements, characters being canonically stronger than another, etc) > In game showings (characters fighting alongside other characters, basically most things a character can do in combat mode) > Attack stats (individual cut and dry stats which are easier to work with. Should factor into an opponents durability as well unless they are treat as a glass cannon/stone wall) > Defence and hp stats (Two different factors playing into a durability rating and generally the most inconsistent. The former deciding how much damage they will recieve and the latter deciding how much damage they can take. Should be normally disregarded unless theres any specific circumstances where its safe to do so)
Additionally monster stats should not scale to frisks ingame stats at all since they function far differently and leads to way to many contradictions and inconsistencies. Based on what we have to work with. This is how the verses scaling should go:
For weaknesses. Asriel with one soul is weakened down near the level of normal humans when faced with bloodlust and off guard due to being able to take hits from them in this state before eventually dying. High tier monsters against bloodlust scaling to asgoreare weakened to the level of floweys attack potency who could never make it past Asgore without Frisks help, but can kill him when hes reduced to low hp. Flowey is a generally bloodlusted character and shows this mentality throughout the game. Mid tier monsters who scale to papyrus would be weakened between the level of monster kid and ruins monsters based on his genocide stats dropping to 3. Extreme bloodlust would render monsters even weaker based on damage.
Low tiers:
Flowey (Durability): Unknown (One shotted by frisk. Can probably take hits from sans with a high amount of lv but is still killed by him repeatedly and every other monster)
Sans: Street level+ or Wall level (Throws large bones at high speeds giving this tier and uses energy blasts through gaster blasters. Though these attacks are magical and probably have some time shenanigans behind them. They should logically be below glad dummy in strength due to sans being the "easiest enemy". Capable of killing flowey many times with repeated attacks.)
Snowdrakes mother (ap): Possibly Wall level (Can barely scratch damage on a minimally determined frisk at their weakest. Though this could be to do with the small amount of soul damage she could inflict on them)
Jerry (ap): Possibly Wall level (May be superior to sans due to be an encounterable monster and not as "easy". However it could be due to defences)
Glad dummy/Mad dummy durability: Possibly Wall level (Is a training dummy. Mad dummy has no reason to be any better in durability. They are one shotted by frisk and only live due to not being properly fused and reforming. Likely above sans.)
Gerson (Post war): Likely Wall level (Elderly man. Presumably superior to sans and possibly comparable to monster kid)
Monster kid: Wall level (Stronger than Sans, glad dummy, and jerry in terms of ap. Can survive a lengthy fall for about 6 seconds though it would have killed them had undyne not caught them)
Alphys (On her own): Wall level (Capable of blocking casual attacks from flowey. Really not much of a fighter. Likely superior to someone like sans and shouldnt be inferior to monster kid)
Mid tiers:
Ruins monsters: Wall level (Being able to kill frisk with enough attacks. Though even a froggit can be one shotted in a scripted event if frisk hits at full force. Generally treat as fodder enemies and should be barely comparable story wise.)
Flowey (attack potency): Wall level (Can almost one shot a minimally determined frisk. Probably superior to snowdin monsters as a result. Though theres no real information regarding where he actually is in comparison to monsters)
Mettaton neo (durability): Wall level (Low defence of 9. Hard to say exactly where they would be since his hp is technically unknowable without looking through the game files, but it should still be at least low mid tier)
Napstablook: Wall level (10 attack stats, not to far off snowdrake and ice cap. Lv does effect ghosts like napstablook and what they can do. Though non corporeality makes them difficult to kill)
Snowdrake and ice cap: Wall level (Somewhat comparable to frisk who is strong enough to gradually chip away at jerrys health while fighting them)
Minimally determined frisk: Wall level (Superior to average monsters who are far superior to the likes of sans. Posesses human physiology, being composed of more physical matter than monsters which cannonically makes them stronger, and shouldnt be weaker than most mid tier monsters as a result. Should scale to children who have been implied to have made it to, and been killed by asgore in the past, meaning they should have been able to survive being attacked by other monsters along the way. Should also scale to chara as a normal child who could survive a visibly lengthy fall with nothing to cushion them. Can chip away at the health of jerry while fighting snowdin monsters, which should be at least comparable to hotland monsters that utilise explosives. Starts to take up to five hits to kill royal guard members at the lowest lv while 3 or less for everything before, meaning he should likely comparable to said royal guard members who were also trained to look out for humans)
Snowdin dog monsters: Wall level (12-15 attack stats)
Glyde: Wall level (Likely somewhere around the level of other snowdin monsters)
Waterfall monsters: Wall level (18-24 attack, mostly fighting alonside eachother)
Papyrus: Wall level (Incredibly strong monster stated by undyne. Aaron being the only monster in the waterfall with higher attack than them. However Aaron fights more consistently alongside monsters with less attack and has lower defence on top of that. Has superior stats to monster kid with his guard lowered. A beginning of genocide route frisk who hasnt reached full lv yet deals much more damage than a normal frisk hitting an unwilling to fight monster. Meaning full bloodlust should be far more damaging than a monster being off guard alone)
Vulkin and tsunderplane: Wall level (25 attack. Can utilise explosives)
So Sorry: Wall level (Puts up a good fight against frisk in the hotlands and may be comparable to hotland monsters as a result)
Pyrope: Wall level (Can generate area of effect explosions. Said explosions would be very high end wall level if pixel scaled. However how useable this would be is questionable due to the inconsistency with the battle screen. Though even a 1 meter assumed radius would make this 6 times baseline)
Mad dummy: Wall level (30 attack. Uses small missiles to attack)
Jerry (durability): Wall level (Has 30 defence which is around core monster level. Is treat as being a stone wall so it isnt unsafe to take his defence into account here)
Core monsters: Wall level (30-36 attack)
Muffet: Wall level (38.8 attack, far above any core or ruin monster. Has a gigantic pet spider which should probably be this tier by sheer size)
Normal Asriel Dreemurr: Wall level (As a boss monster, his soul is incredibly powerful and capable of persisting after death which due to being a monster, would scale to his physical stats. He is a child however so it is unknown how far below his parents he is. Asriel should have a key for this and with one soul)
High tiers:
Mad mew mew: At least Wall level (Undynes training dummy, has attack similar to undyne. Her durability should just be wall level. While they are confident in taking spears from undyne, they are also one shotted by a frisk at her level and survive via reforming)
Mettaton ex: At least Wall level (47 attack. Higher stats than undyne without armour infact. Can also take hits from frisks bullets which can split small metal robots in two)
Undyne: At least Wall level (50 attack. Should be far stronger than any of the mid tier monsters. Can throw toriel out her castle with her sheer strength, though it may be likely she was holding back and can barely knock asgore down and trained more afterwards. Can casually break concrete and shake her house by stomping)
Toriel: At least Wall level (80 attack. Comparable to asgore)
Asgore: At least Wall level (Down to the level of mid tier monsters against extreme bloodlust or off guard) (Most powerful monster in the underground. Impossible for flowey to get past, at least without save and load who can kill every monster with enough bloodlust likely including toriel. Asgore does posess more hp than toriel in addition to this, though toriel likely has much lower intentions to harm flowey than asgore would. Stated by undyne to have killed humans individually that have landed in the underground, though said humans were children)
Average humans: At least Wall level (Stated repeatedly to have tremendous power on their own, beyond that of monsters physically and should be superior to most monsters in the underground. Not a single human died in the war against monsters)
Mettaton neo (Ap): At least Wall level (90 attack. Human killing machine)
God tiers:
Undyne the undyne: At least Wall level, likely far higher (Likely down to the level of her base against extreme bloodlust) (Fought frisk who had high levels of determination at least enough to match her normal self, and was at nearly full bloodlust, being capable of previously one shotting toriel with said bloodlust)
Base mettaton (Durability): At least Wall level, likely far higher (Completely impervious to frisks attacks. Possesses 255 defence. Hp value is unknown however. But should still be around this level as a result.)
Asriel (one soul): At least Small Building level (Fused with a human soul, which has the power of every monster in the underground, of which there are thousands. Can take dozens hits from an army of fully bloodlusted humans without the will to fight them and could have wiped them out easily, which on its own should make them far superior to undyne the undying due to undyne fighting on par with one bloodlusted opponent who is likely around her normal level)
Frisk (immense/full determination): Unknown (Weaker than photoshop flowey at full power but can damage his weakened state. Unknown if hes any higher with full determination)
Photoshop flowey: Unknown (Posesses 6 human souls. Can prolly eat humanity for breakfast. Save file destruction is no longer tier 2 as they only store information from frisks reset point to when he last saved, an extremely limited amount of time.)
Atziluth tiers:
Frisk (Full determination durability): Unknown with immense determination, at least Universe level+ to Multiverse level with full determination (Can take hits from asriel and survive the timeline collapsing)
Asriel Dreemurr: At least Universe level+ in base (Collapses the timeline. Is a fraction of his true power) Multiversal at full power (Causing the world to end with his existence, performing the true reset which erases all information in the game including past timelines and functions the same way as charas endgame feat. Superior to frisk using the full extent of their determination)
Chara (While not possessing frisk): Multiverse level
The Player (While not possessing frisk): Multiverse level
Flowey (Durability): Unknown (One shotted by frisk. Can probably take hits from sans with a high amount of lv but is still killed by him repeatedly and every other monster)
Sans: Street level+ or Wall level (Throws large bones at high speeds giving this tier and uses energy blasts through gaster blasters. Though these attacks are magical and probably have some time shenanigans behind them. They should logically be below glad dummy in strength due to sans being the "easiest enemy". Capable of killing flowey many times with repeated attacks.)
Snowdrakes mother (ap): Possibly Wall level (Can barely scratch damage on a minimally determined frisk at their weakest. Though this could be to do with the small amount of soul damage she could inflict on them)
Jerry (ap): Possibly Wall level (May be superior to sans due to be an encounterable monster and not as "easy". However it could be due to defences)
Glad dummy/Mad dummy durability: Possibly Wall level (Is a training dummy. Mad dummy has no reason to be any better in durability. They are one shotted by frisk and only live due to not being properly fused and reforming. Likely above sans.)
Gerson (Post war): Likely Wall level (Elderly man. Presumably superior to sans and possibly comparable to monster kid)
Monster kid: Wall level (Stronger than Sans, glad dummy, and jerry in terms of ap. Can survive a lengthy fall for about 6 seconds though it would have killed them had undyne not caught them)
Alphys (On her own): Wall level (Capable of blocking casual attacks from flowey. Really not much of a fighter. Likely superior to someone like sans and shouldnt be inferior to monster kid)
Mid tiers:
Ruins monsters: Wall level (Being able to kill frisk with enough attacks. Though even a froggit can be one shotted in a scripted event if frisk hits at full force. Generally treat as fodder enemies and should be barely comparable story wise.)
Flowey (attack potency): Wall level (Can almost one shot a minimally determined frisk. Probably superior to snowdin monsters as a result. Though theres no real information regarding where he actually is in comparison to monsters)
Mettaton neo (durability): Wall level (Low defence of 9. Hard to say exactly where they would be since his hp is technically unknowable without looking through the game files, but it should still be at least low mid tier)
Napstablook: Wall level (10 attack stats, not to far off snowdrake and ice cap. Lv does effect ghosts like napstablook and what they can do. Though non corporeality makes them difficult to kill)
Snowdrake and ice cap: Wall level (Somewhat comparable to frisk who is strong enough to gradually chip away at jerrys health while fighting them)
Minimally determined frisk: Wall level (Superior to average monsters who are far superior to the likes of sans. Posesses human physiology, being composed of more physical matter than monsters which cannonically makes them stronger, and shouldnt be weaker than most mid tier monsters as a result. Should scale to children who have been implied to have made it to, and been killed by asgore in the past, meaning they should have been able to survive being attacked by other monsters along the way. Should also scale to chara as a normal child who could survive a visibly lengthy fall with nothing to cushion them. Can chip away at the health of jerry while fighting snowdin monsters, which should be at least comparable to hotland monsters that utilise explosives. Starts to take up to five hits to kill royal guard members at the lowest lv while 3 or less for everything before, meaning he should likely comparable to said royal guard members who were also trained to look out for humans)
Snowdin dog monsters: Wall level (12-15 attack stats)
Glyde: Wall level (Likely somewhere around the level of other snowdin monsters)
Waterfall monsters: Wall level (18-24 attack, mostly fighting alonside eachother)
Papyrus: Wall level (Incredibly strong monster stated by undyne. Aaron being the only monster in the waterfall with higher attack than them. However Aaron fights more consistently alongside monsters with less attack and has lower defence on top of that. Has superior stats to monster kid with his guard lowered. A beginning of genocide route frisk who hasnt reached full lv yet deals much more damage than a normal frisk hitting an unwilling to fight monster. Meaning full bloodlust should be far more damaging than a monster being off guard alone)
Vulkin and tsunderplane: Wall level (25 attack. Can utilise explosives)
So Sorry: Wall level (Puts up a good fight against frisk in the hotlands and may be comparable to hotland monsters as a result)
Pyrope: Wall level (Can generate area of effect explosions. Said explosions would be very high end wall level if pixel scaled. However how useable this would be is questionable due to the inconsistency with the battle screen. Though even a 1 meter assumed radius would make this 6 times baseline)
Mad dummy: Wall level (30 attack. Uses small missiles to attack)
Jerry (durability): Wall level (Has 30 defence which is around core monster level. Is treat as being a stone wall so it isnt unsafe to take his defence into account here)
Core monsters: Wall level (30-36 attack)
Muffet: Wall level (38.8 attack, far above any core or ruin monster. Has a gigantic pet spider which should probably be this tier by sheer size)
Normal Asriel Dreemurr: Wall level (As a boss monster, his soul is incredibly powerful and capable of persisting after death which due to being a monster, would scale to his physical stats. He is a child however so it is unknown how far below his parents he is. Asriel should have a key for this and with one soul)
High tiers:
Mad mew mew: At least Wall level (Undynes training dummy, has attack similar to undyne. Her durability should just be wall level. While they are confident in taking spears from undyne, they are also one shotted by a frisk at her level and survive via reforming)
Mettaton ex: At least Wall level (47 attack. Higher stats than undyne without armour infact. Can also take hits from frisks bullets which can split small metal robots in two)
Undyne: At least Wall level (50 attack. Should be far stronger than any of the mid tier monsters. Can throw toriel out her castle with her sheer strength, though it may be likely she was holding back and can barely knock asgore down and trained more afterwards. Can casually break concrete and shake her house by stomping)
Toriel: At least Wall level (80 attack. Comparable to asgore)
Asgore: At least Wall level (Down to the level of mid tier monsters against extreme bloodlust or off guard) (Most powerful monster in the underground. Impossible for flowey to get past, at least without save and load who can kill every monster with enough bloodlust likely including toriel. Asgore does posess more hp than toriel in addition to this, though toriel likely has much lower intentions to harm flowey than asgore would. Stated by undyne to have killed humans individually that have landed in the underground, though said humans were children)
Average humans: At least Wall level (Stated repeatedly to have tremendous power on their own, beyond that of monsters physically and should be superior to most monsters in the underground. Not a single human died in the war against monsters)
Mettaton neo (Ap): At least Wall level (90 attack. Human killing machine)
God tiers:
Undyne the undyne: At least Wall level, likely far higher (Likely down to the level of her base against extreme bloodlust) (Fought frisk who had high levels of determination at least enough to match her normal self, and was at nearly full bloodlust, being capable of previously one shotting toriel with said bloodlust)
Base mettaton (Durability): At least Wall level, likely far higher (Completely impervious to frisks attacks. Possesses 255 defence. Hp value is unknown however. But should still be around this level as a result.)
Asriel (one soul): At least Small Building level (Fused with a human soul, which has the power of every monster in the underground, of which there are thousands. Can take dozens hits from an army of fully bloodlusted humans without the will to fight them and could have wiped them out easily, which on its own should make them far superior to undyne the undying due to undyne fighting on par with one bloodlusted opponent who is likely around her normal level)
Frisk (immense/full determination): Unknown (Weaker than photoshop flowey at full power but can damage his weakened state. Unknown if hes any higher with full determination)
Photoshop flowey: Unknown (Posesses 6 human souls. Can prolly eat humanity for breakfast. Save file destruction is no longer tier 2 as they only store information from frisks reset point to when he last saved, an extremely limited amount of time.)
Atziluth tiers:
Frisk (Full determination durability): Unknown with immense determination, at least Universe level+ to Multiverse level with full determination (Can take hits from asriel and survive the timeline collapsing)
Asriel Dreemurr: At least Universe level+ in base (Collapses the timeline. Is a fraction of his true power) Multiversal at full power (Causing the world to end with his existence, performing the true reset which erases all information in the game including past timelines and functions the same way as charas endgame feat. Superior to frisk using the full extent of their determination)
Chara (While not possessing frisk): Multiverse level
The Player (While not possessing frisk): Multiverse level
Now onto all the ability changes.
Monsters soul manip can ignore a small level of durability. But not to the point where they can badly hurt someone tiers beyond them and this can be negated through either magical defences or higher durability. Monsters also gain soul resistence due to their physical bodies being attuned to their souls, and any attack done on their body equating to soul damage and visa versa. Additionally, everyone gains heat resistence, as even extremely weak monsters such as sans, alphys and even spiders can survive in the hotlands. Monsters attacks including the weapons and armour they make due to being magical, are attuned to their souls and are centered around emotion. When refusing to fight and/or facing a bloodlusted opponent. They become vulnerable to these attacks due to emotional distancing.
The amalgamates gain Data Manipulation, Reality Warping, Information Manipulation and Power Nullification (through registering attacks as invalid), memory head should also have technology manipulation for corrupting frisks phone. The first three abilities are also given to photoshop flowey, asriel, chara and the player.
The amalgamates just have low-high regen only as they have no reason to scale to frisk full determination.
Save and load shouldnt fall under timeline destruction. The consuming of timelines does not mean the literal destruction of them based on the context and lack of evidence. This likely only falls under time freeze due to the stopping of these timelines, but only through reloading. Users of save and load gain type 8 immortality due to being reliant and being capable of ressurecting through the determination they posess.
Sans gains outright durability negation due to him poisoning frisks soul directly to negate durability and passing through physical defences entirely.
Chara while posessing frisk is not limited to the genocide route and doesnt scale to undyne the undying directly due to using extreme bloodlust to weaken them mostly. They simply have frisks normal stats. The player would be the same when posessing frisk. Chara is also reliant on the players determination and is what allows them to exist.
Photoshop flowey has bfr for throwing the player out the game, dimensional travel and pocket reality manipulation for his manipulation of save files.
Matched save and load users dont have their memories erased from repeated deaths. This was the memories of everyone else being erased not the user. And was happening from frisk dying and reforming.
Frisks armour should be factored in as soul resistence. It is created through monsters expressing themselves and primarily offers magical defences mostly explained in the explanation page.
Speed downgrade:
For starters. Ruins monsters should be normal human. They are not superior to a minimally determined frisk and shouldnt be assumed faster.
Secondly. I originally upgraded the verses speed to supersonic under the basis that "it makes more sense to assume greater dogs barks to be sound turned into magic than sound turned into magic than magical bark shaped projectiles". Even though i still agree with the fact that attacks in undertale shouldnt immediately be written off as fake (so fire attacks gives you fire manip, water attacks give you water manip etc), this is well, entirely based on "this assumption sounds better" and overall shaky at best. So its time for me to eat my own words.
Greater dogs barks however directly comes from the source of something that can logically produce sound and does so with the action that creates real sound (making noise by barking) which at least gives some support for it being valid. The projectiles being viewed as the word bark shows that the projectiles themselves are representation of the barks themselves, which is a sound. And do add on to that, the barking sound effect is silent, which is normally not the case when a dog barks as seen by other instances such as with lesser dog, we actually hear the bark (or see it in a speech bubble) meaning that the sound itself must have either be converted into something that isnt a normal soundwave, or just not exist to begin with.
Well. Monsters attacks are based on emotion and expressing themselves. Greater dogs barks coming directly from his voice and then being given magical properties being sound in an attack form is questionable based on this and almost no attack being created like this. Plus have shyren who does this exact same thing, but with musical notes instead of barks and his only gets them a possible transonic rating, because sound only works at one speed and musical notes having controlled movement speed like this goes against them being transonic. So shyrens sound attacks go at the set speed of sound, then why should we assume greater dogs barks function any different?
Contradictions aside, supersonic has nothing to support it beyond "it works better" and is virtually a gag and functions nothing like sound beyond constant speed in greater dogs case and may be a representation of sound. And im pretty sure theirs more explanations to what the barks are than the few possibilities i painted out. So the old subsonic ratings should come back.
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