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Major undertale revisions

"You know, if someone erases the concept of evil in the best situation, but erases anything else in the worst, is safe to tell that any other concept is gone in the second case, since not only the evil is gone, but also all the other concepts."
>You're going on like everything else being erased is accepted in this argument, which it hasn't. The context and wording of destroying everything was a physical means not done through erasure.


"When did I say that Undyne became Low 2-C? I just said that as she powered up her DT, but it was still weaker than Genocide Frisk's, Full DT Frisk did the same against Photoshop Flowey, so they powering up to the point to be Low 2-C and being able to be a fight to Flowey wouldn't be weird, since there's already a similar situation of "boosting the DT against a stronger DT user, but having it still weaker"."
>You would need to show she became Low 2-C via that since the only time we've seen someone amp to tier 2 via this is Full Determination Frisk who matched Asriel's DT who matches the DT of seven human SOULS. So simply using Undyne giving herself somewhat of an amp isn't enough to prove Frisk during the OF fight can amp themself this far.

"Dreams =/= Universes, Lavos there was ending all the existence, the dream thing was just an evidence of him destroying things waaay superior to his base."
>They're considered universes in CT. Anyways this is derail.
 
I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion. Alternately, a staff member can use the @Username notification system.
 
>You're going on like everything else being erased is accepted in this argument, which it hasn't. The context and wording of destroying everything was a physical means not done through erasure.

I mean, even his profile says he erases anything if is from an evil heart

If evil, it will completely erase everything the awakener decides to end to satisfy their ambition. Should someone with no heart awaken it, all life will end forever, including that of the Dark Dragon.

>You would need to show she became Low 2-C via that since the only time we've seen someone amp to tier 2 via this is Full Determination Frisk who matched Asriel's DT who matches the DT of seven human SOULS. So simply using Undyne giving herself somewhat of an amp isn't enough to prove Frisk during the OF fight can amp themself this far.

You kinda confused me because we refer to Frisk and Chara has "they", always. Also why isn't a proof? Photoshop Flowey one-shotted anything, a thing that regular DT Frisk can't even do. How Undyne amping herself againt Genocide Frisk isn't enough to prove so? As Undyne gained new DT to defeat Geno-Frisk, Neutral Frisk did the same because they needed new DT to stop Flowey from murdering them for all the eternity (yet it wasn't enough, but still), is basic logic. The "Frisk amped their DT only against GoHD Asriel" is an headcanon as nothing remotely said so, Frisk likely amped their DT even against Asgore too.
 
"I mean, even his profile says he erases anything if is from an evil heart

If evil, it will completely erase everything the awakener decides to end to satisfy their ambition. Should someone with no heart awaken it, all life will end forever, including that of the Dark Dragon."
>Seems more like the person who made the profile at the time associated nothing with void manip. A lot of old profiles have that from what I remember.


"You kinda confused me because we refer to Frisk and Chara has "they", always. Also why isn't a proof? Photoshop Flowey one-shotted anything, a thing that regular DT Frisk can't even do. How Undyne amping herself againt Genocide Frisk isn't enough to prove so? As Undyne gained new DT to defeat Geno-Frisk, Neutral Frisk did the same because they needed new DT to stop Flowey from murdering them for all the eternity (yet it wasn't enough, but still), is basic logic. The "Frisk amped their DT only against GoHD Asriel" is an headcanon as nothing remotely said so, Frisk likely amped their DT even against Asgore too."
>Because Undyne only amped herself to a level where she still couldn't beat a Geno Frisk and just resisted his attacks more. Meanwhile the only time we've seen Frisk do an increase like that in durability is when he reaches full determination and it still only allows him to barely survive a timeline nuke. So why would a lesser DT frisk suddenly have better durability then a full determination Frisk that matches Asriel's? Also I'm not denying they're DT amps them, I'm saying it amps them in conjunction to how much DT they have.
 
>Because Undyne only amped herself to a level where she still couldn't beat a Geno Frisk and just resisted his attacks more. Meanwhile the only time we've seen Frisk do an increase like that in durability is when he reaches full determination and it still only allows him to barely survive a timeline nuke. So why would a lesser DT frisk suddenly have better durability then a full determination Frisk that matches Asriel's? Also I'm not denying they're DT amps them, I'm saying it amps them in conjunction to how much DT they have.

Asriel is still 2-B in his base in my CRT, which is discussed here, and no one still denied that. It wouldn't be weird for Neutral Frisk having Low 2-C durability and Pacifist Frisk having 2-B dura, that's all.
 
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"Asriel is still 2-B in his base in my CRT, which is discussed here, and no one still denied that. It wouldn't be weird for Neutral Frisk having Low 2-C durability and Pacifist Frisk having 2-B dura, that's all."
>I just always assumed it was his RPL amping further with his DT but if it's accepted that he's 2-B in base which I don't have a problem with I'm fine with 2-B dura. Though I'm still not fine with Neutral Frisk having Low 2-C durability purely cause Undyne has shown to amp themself to a slightly higher level. The neutral Frisk fighting Photoshop Flowey is weaker then the one fighting Asgore due to them being overrided.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
"Asriel is still 2-B in his base in my CRT, which is discussed here, and no one still denied that. It wouldn't be weird for Neutral Frisk having Low 2-C durability and Pacifist Frisk having 2-B dura, that's all."
>I just always assumed it was his RPL amping further with his DT but if it's accepted that he's 2-B in base which I don't have a problem with I'm fine with 2-B dura. Though I'm still not fine with Neutral Frisk having Low 2-C durability purely cause Undyne has shown to amp themself to a slightly higher level. The neutral Frisk fighting Photoshop Flowey is weaker then the one fighting Asgore due to them being overrided.
Click to expand...
How's being overrided being weaker? Nothing suggested base Flowey becoming weaker than before meeting Frisk because the latter has more DT, so Frisk shouldn't be too.
 
Cause Flowey states he lost access to a lot of his stuff upon Frisk entering and the reverse is happening here. Also he becomes a lot weaker he implies how he's easily able to kill members of the cast like Toriel in his speeches yet Toriel easily defeats him in the beginning of UT once Frisk enters.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
Cause Flowey states he lost access to a lot of his stuff upon Frisk entering and the reverse is happening here. Also he becomes a lot weaker he implies how he's easily able to kill members of the cast like Toriel in his speeches yet Toriel easily defeats him in the beginning of UT once Frisk enters.
Click to expand...
...what?

This is not an argument, especially when he was only caught off-guard against Toriel, plus he blocked all the strongest monsters at the end of the pacifist run, so Flowey ain't weaker than before lmao
 
Can someone summarize the arguments here, there's a lot of information going around and I don't exactly have the time to read all of it, what are the main points of contention?
 
StrymULTRA said:
...what?

This is not an argument, especially when he was only caught off-guard against Toriel, plus he blocked all the strongest monsters at the end of the pacifist run, so Flowey ain't weaker than before lmao
Click to expand...
The only thing Toriel catches him off-guard on is stopping his attack, but he easily gets pushed away by her fireball. That strongest monsters thing is directly ignoring the part where he said he's already absorbed the 6 human SOULs:


Idk how you missed that tbh.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
The only thing Toriel catches him off-guard on is stopping his attack, but he easily gets pushed away by her fireball. That strongest monsters thing is directly ignoring the part where he said he's already absorbed the 6 human SOULs:


Idk how you missed that tbh.
Click to expand...

Is clearly show when he absorbs the 6 Human SOULs and when not, and Flowey absorbed the whole Underground at once since it reached even Napstablook.
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
Can someone summarize the arguments here, there's a lot of information going around and I don't exactly have the time to read all of it, what are the main points of contention?
Click to expand...
OP wants to downgrade the non-god tiers to 9-B at best since for some reason Minecraft heat feats are invalid so they want to negate UT's as well, negate Greater Dog's subsonic attack speed since magic attacks =/= irl ones, downgrade Photoshop Flowey to Unknown since his feats are vague, Base Asriel to Low 2-C and Full Power Asriel to a lesser degree of 2-B.

Mine's is basically this, plus me and @Theuser789 agreed on SOUL attacks targetting the SOUL due to the fights in both UT and DR being mostly based on it and whatever happens to the SOUL reflects to the body, so UT characters have still resistance to SOUL attacks as they still tank them as physical ones.
 
@DemonGodMitchAubin Well i dont even know whats going on between stry and giver at this point. But well. The calc that puts sans at wall level is kinda up for discussion as to whether its useable (im relatively neutral). Saikou and possibly mori and efficient doesnt agree with frisk using determination to reach monsters level but more having slight killing intent throughout the entire game including pacifist which brings monsters all down to frisks level. Everyone else has agreed with frisk using determination though.

Theres also disagreement on whether or not greater dogs barks should still be assumed the speed of sound or not. And whether photoshop floweys low 2-C or not.

For photoshop flowey, his save file destruction doesnt even seem low 2-C since save files store information from the reset point to the last time frisk saved which is a limited amount of time and not the entire timeline
 
For that soul attacks thing. The op is presenting that soul attacks should at least do extra damage since frisk needs magical items to resist them. Im neutral on whether or not theyre full durability negation for now
 
@StrymULTRA Also no. I never said that it was because some minecraft feats were disregarded. I will say for the millionth time. Surviving the heat of an intense environment is not considered a dura feat anymore and just used that as one example. What does it take for you to get that? And i never said greater dogs barks are subsonic either. Stop putting these words into my mouth.
 
It would be better if we focus first on the low-tiers (which are 99% of the verse) and then later discuss about the god-tiers such as Photoshop Flowey and Asriel.

This image could help to find the definite size of Frisk's soul before and after he enters a fight.
 
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@Therefir Thanks for the help. And i agree with focusing on low tiers. Do you think this calc can be used in general? It also links to your old calc which uses souls in containers. Not sure if using frisks soul here would change the size much (gotta go bed atm so imma be back later)
 
@RethPo Magic in Undertale is certainly a physical construct, so I think the calc should be fine, but I will try to re-measure the size of Frisk's soul and see if it varies compared to other souls.

Edit: I just checked and the size of the souls is the same, so there should be no problem in using the calc.
 
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I have no idea wtf was going on here, as apparently others felt that way too, would it be a good idea to start over in a new thread, with 1 topic being dealt with and no derailing allowed? Just a proposal.
 
@Eficiente Honestly i agree. This has become a mess and seems to be too much for staff to go through. Stry has his own thread so its probably safe to close this one and evaluate that one. In the meantime i can prepare a revision focusing on the low tier monster scaling, then focus on the the god tiers and other changes in the explanation blog for later. So yeah, i dont mind closing this if its safe to do so.
 
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I disagree, Undyne and Frisk also tank the explosion of the oven, which is the size of undyne house since the house all get burned, there are Also Mettaton destroying the wall in Alphys lab, the reasons for that feat be invalid are bad, and Mettaton EX esposion upon death to support the small bulding level stafff

Shyren do not use some wierd magic based attacks she just sing and Frisk dodge her singing

Disagree with Photoshop Flowey be Unknown and the soul hax not be a hax for reasons above

I am natural in the Amalgamates stuff
 
Yeah i don't actually see why Undyne's feat needs to go, the heat feat that got rejected in Minecraft was "this place is hot enough to vaporize water", not a explosion like the Undyne feat, plus a similar feat is already rejected in Undertale (the water cup feat)

So I don't see why a downgrade needs to happen, you can at least calc the force of the explosion
 
Undynes oven isnt an explosion though. Its an oven overloading creating a fireball expansion which as far as im aware wouldnt really be a remarkable force feat.
 
Undyne's feat is the oven overheating that it explodes and burns the house, it's not just "This place is really hot that it causes things to evaporate", that part of heat feats was the one rejected

It's isn't a feat like the Minecraft Nether one, that would be the water cup feat which already got rejected
 
...It not just about a hot environment though. Surviving heat in general just isnt a dura feat anymore in terms of force anyway. And that is definitely more of a fireball expansion than an explosion. Its created from the oven overloading and lighting into expanding flames, and nothing in the room is actually damaged or moved by it and is instantly all burned. Unless a force feat can be taken from it, but i dont think it would be much.
 
But the feat you keep using to prove heat feats are gone is just a "hot environment though" feat

Anyways even irl a oven overheating like that does cause energy, might not be 9-A but it is still a feat, it's not completelly unasuble even if "all heat feats" got nuked and not just "survive in a hot place" feats
 
@Therefir Im guessing youre still here so... could you possibly explain whats going on with heat feats if you know? It was said multiple times on discord theyre no longer useable and being separated form force and the feat with the oven isnt a force feat so idk if theres a thread im missing or hasnt been released yet. Its this feat thats being questioned.
 
Heh... Have i mentioned that sans being human level or lower if the calc were rejected would result in mid tiers becoming 10-C against genocidal bloodlust based on the weakness scaling in the op?
 
They don't become 10-C if the opponent has some random bloodlust, heck, they did even a war against humans and survived.

They are 10-C ONLY if both the conditions of them not wanting to fight AND the opponent wants to kill them are toghether at the same time, aka is not applicable in vs threads due to SBA.
 
Undyne and Asgore literally called Frisk a monstrousity beyond any human and moster sense, plus not even MTT NEO, who was made for exterminate humans without any difficulty, could do something against them, meaning that Frisk surpassed any human in power and bloodlust.
 
I mean. I doubt any human fighting in the war would have had a psychotic "find and kill everything because it feels good" mindset the player gives to chara in genocide. Plus the humans demolished the monsters in the war and it was completely one sided. Undyne and asgore seeing frisk as monstrous was likely due to charas empty nature becoming more noticeable due to their mindless killing intentions mostly going by what flowey says after killing toriel. So its probably an exaggeration to say frisk had beyond human bloodlust especially early around the time they were fighting toriel.
 
You literally explained why they would have stronger bloodlust than normal humans just to conclude that it's regular bloodlust? What? Like I am genuily not getting your train of thought

Flowey says you aren't human right after killing Toriel, Sans says the same right after Flowey, Undyne says you aren't human and Asgore straight up thinks Chara is just a monster even though he saw multiple humans before
 
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