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Did Mettaton do this?
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Major undertale revisions
- Thread starter RethPo
- Start date
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- Thread starter
- #42
I agree with eficiente in tackling this one bit at a time and probably just focus on how monsters should be scaled at the moment. Best to not bring up revisions unrelated as well. Concept manip souls is definitely not happening.
Ive updated the explanations in the op for better context for now since i left most of it out.
And... no. I dont think mettaton did that.
Ive updated the explanations in the op for better context for now since i left most of it out.
And... no. I dont think mettaton did that.
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That's just a random room on the core as stated by a NPC
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Neutral on the calcs
Agree with the rest except for the part regarding Asriel using "world" to mean Multiverse
>What he was trying was gaining control over the timeline itself, not the Multiverse
"You know... I don't care about destroying this world anymore. (After Star Blazing – Before Shocker Breaker)
After I defeat you and gain total control over the timeline... I just want to reset everything.(Before Chaos Saber)"
Then he uses Hyper Goner to "purge the timeline" (not destroying it entirely technically?)
"Now, ENOUGH messing around! It's time to purge this timeline once and for all! (Before Hyper Goner)"
>While Frisk can't hurt him, he's not really above Frisk since he needed to defeat Frisk to gain control over the timeline because of equal DT
>At last, he did want to reach True Reset but never attained this state, explaining that he wouldn't have been able to do it (at the end of Pacifist, when he's Flowey).
As such, I think he should just be Low 2-C, or at best something like "Low 2-C, 2-B with True Reset".
Agree with the rest except for the part regarding Asriel using "world" to mean Multiverse
>What he was trying was gaining control over the timeline itself, not the Multiverse
"You know... I don't care about destroying this world anymore. (After Star Blazing – Before Shocker Breaker)
After I defeat you and gain total control over the timeline... I just want to reset everything.(Before Chaos Saber)"
Then he uses Hyper Goner to "purge the timeline" (not destroying it entirely technically?)
"Now, ENOUGH messing around! It's time to purge this timeline once and for all! (Before Hyper Goner)"
>While Frisk can't hurt him, he's not really above Frisk since he needed to defeat Frisk to gain control over the timeline because of equal DT
>At last, he did want to reach True Reset but never attained this state, explaining that he wouldn't have been able to do it (at the end of Pacifist, when he's Flowey).
As such, I think he should just be Low 2-C, or at best something like "Low 2-C, 2-B with True Reset".
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Uh. Ill summarise why the true reset should be 2-B here in short just to save time.
Sans in his genocide dialogue his research leads to him discovering frisks past manipulation of timelines. However if you go back, do a pacifist run, true reset, and go back to sans without reloading, he cannot find any evidence of these timelines existing. Sans memories being reset wouldnt change this since he would simply do the same research he would do after a normal reset and pick the existence of these timelines up again. Additionally there is frisk being unable to access past timelines through continue after a true reset and the true reset outright erasing all past progress and information. The name of the fallen human and everyones perception of this changing, ultimately effecting a past event which proves the true reset is not limited to a save file and actually effects timelines in their totality.
And the fact that the true reset has the exact same effect on the game as charas feat. The only difference being the player performing it differently and no black mark being left since the player doesnt bargain with chara. Asriel doing through taking control ending "the world" just backs it up.
As for what you said. Taking control of the timeline was just the start of what he was doing, and even so. Nobody ever uses the term "multiverse" in undertale. Its only ever been the term "world". And asriel was in the process of ending the world after already purging the timeline implying that yes, world is more than just that one timeline.
For reaching true reset part youre talking about this. Flowey just said that he no longer wanted to reset anything. That wasnt in relation to what he was doing prior. And there is no state of true reset asriel was going to reach nor is it a glass cannon ability. Its something he was outright going to do and his full power should scale.
And yeah asriel is comparable to the full extent of frisk/the players determination. I should also mention that the players determination is literally where charas power and continued existence comes from so... them being massively above the player doesnt make sense.
And the fact that the true reset has the exact same effect on the game as charas feat. The only difference being the player performing it differently and no black mark being left since the player doesnt bargain with chara. Asriel doing through taking control ending "the world" just backs it up.
As for what you said. Taking control of the timeline was just the start of what he was doing, and even so. Nobody ever uses the term "multiverse" in undertale. Its only ever been the term "world". And asriel was in the process of ending the world after already purging the timeline implying that yes, world is more than just that one timeline.
For reaching true reset part youre talking about this. Flowey just said that he no longer wanted to reset anything. That wasnt in relation to what he was doing prior. And there is no state of true reset asriel was going to reach nor is it a glass cannon ability. Its something he was outright going to do and his full power should scale.
And yeah asriel is comparable to the full extent of frisk/the players determination. I should also mention that the players determination is literally where charas power and continued existence comes from so... them being massively above the player doesnt make sense.
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Do you have an instance of the "he cannot find any evidence of these timelines existing"? I never heard of this but it sounds pretty interresting.
I more see the fact that the world was going to end after the timeline being purged meaning he'll reset the timeline which is now empty. Although I get what you mean here.
Asriel was against Frisk's determination, not against the litteral player or Chara. It's not even remotely implied anywhere.
Also True Reset shouldn't scale to him same way Reset doesn't make Frisk a Low 2-C God
He didn't really proved to be 2-B outside of wanting to do this, with his feats all being Low 2-C and the vague "world is ending" (which makes no sense with Asriel flat out saying he doesn't want to destroy it).
I more see the fact that the world was going to end after the timeline being purged meaning he'll reset the timeline which is now empty. Although I get what you mean here.
Asriel was against Frisk's determination, not against the litteral player or Chara. It's not even remotely implied anywhere.
Also True Reset shouldn't scale to him same way Reset doesn't make Frisk a Low 2-C God
He didn't really proved to be 2-B outside of wanting to do this, with his feats all being Low 2-C and the vague "world is ending" (which makes no sense with Asriel flat out saying he doesn't want to destroy it).
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Its not that its outright stated. Its that he doesnt make any reference to his research finding "timelines jumping left and right etc" if you true reset and reach him without reloading. Meaning frisks past time manipulation is pmuch erased from the games memory post true resetting. Here
That implies he would be in the process of restoring the timeline after emptying it. Which he wasnt. He was in the process of destroying the world after the timeline was already emptied/destroyed. Him ending the world was a part of the reset.
I mean, this is the most amount of determination frisk can tap into and enough to break off from the player in the end. And the player is where chara/frisks determination comes from. Take that as you will though.
The reset doesnt make frisk a low 2-C because its literally just winding time back to when he landed on the bed of flowers and gained save and load. Asriel is straight up erasing progress and memories on a 2-B scale. Theres no reason to just assume glass cannon/time manip from that. By not wanting to destroy it he probably just meant not destroying everything and just leaving the game empty.
That implies he would be in the process of restoring the timeline after emptying it. Which he wasnt. He was in the process of destroying the world after the timeline was already emptied/destroyed. Him ending the world was a part of the reset.
I mean, this is the most amount of determination frisk can tap into and enough to break off from the player in the end. And the player is where chara/frisks determination comes from. Take that as you will though.
The reset doesnt make frisk a low 2-C because its literally just winding time back to when he landed on the bed of flowers and gained save and load. Asriel is straight up erasing progress and memories on a 2-B scale. Theres no reason to just assume glass cannon/time manip from that. By not wanting to destroy it he probably just meant not destroying everything and just leaving the game empty.
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@Moritzva Well... i understand if its tedious since the explanation page is long and one topic seems to be bringing up another. You kinda have to summarise it... would it help if i try cutting down the first page a bit later/explaining in simpler and better terms?
Rn the monsters scaling and asriels tier is kinda the main focus.
Rn the monsters scaling and asriels tier is kinda the main focus.
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To come back to Asriel:
>That implies he would be in the process of restoring the timeline after emptying it. Which he wasnt. He was in the process of destroying the world after the timeline was already emptied/destroyed. Him ending the world was a part of the reset.
It's not stated to be so. Asriel flat out said that the reset needed Frisk's defeat. Not to mention that "world is ending" part is from the same unreliable narrator who says this like "absolute god of death", "legendary being" and is pretty much hyperbolic the whole fight.
>I mean, this is the most amount of determination frisk can tap into and enough to break off from the player in the end. And the player is where chara/frisks determination comes from. Take that as you will though.
While it's arguably true for Chara, Frisk's determination is his own. Anything more is on the theory side rather than the factual one.
>Asriel is straight up erasing progress and memories on a 2-B scale. Theres no reason to just assume glass cannon/time manip from that. By not wanting to destroy it he probably just meant not destroying everything and just leaving the game empty.
Memories bit was about Frisk being forgotten with each death, not True Reset-related.
It has a lot of reason to be considered a different thing, like the fact that Frisk can tank Asriel attacks but wouldn't do anything against a True Reset.
To add more, there's also this bit which would either disprove the Low 2-C tier for his base, or just 2-B Asriel in general:
SAVING over ASRIEL's file seems like the only way to defeat him..." "But having never SAVED before, you lack the power to do it. [Struggle #5 if the protagonist has no save file]
The narrator basically imply you could save and load at this time (if not for Asriel having equal DT), meaning the timeline still has time and space to an extent. As such, "purging the timeline" would just be 3-A, which wouldn't make any incoherences anyway.
Also note that this happen when Asriel is already in his full power, meaning that if he's supposedly ending the whole multiverse with his presence, Save files wouldn't even be a thing.
All of this kinda point toward "only True Reset is 2-B" at best.
>That implies he would be in the process of restoring the timeline after emptying it. Which he wasnt. He was in the process of destroying the world after the timeline was already emptied/destroyed. Him ending the world was a part of the reset.
It's not stated to be so. Asriel flat out said that the reset needed Frisk's defeat. Not to mention that "world is ending" part is from the same unreliable narrator who says this like "absolute god of death", "legendary being" and is pretty much hyperbolic the whole fight.
>I mean, this is the most amount of determination frisk can tap into and enough to break off from the player in the end. And the player is where chara/frisks determination comes from. Take that as you will though.
While it's arguably true for Chara, Frisk's determination is his own. Anything more is on the theory side rather than the factual one.
>Asriel is straight up erasing progress and memories on a 2-B scale. Theres no reason to just assume glass cannon/time manip from that. By not wanting to destroy it he probably just meant not destroying everything and just leaving the game empty.
Memories bit was about Frisk being forgotten with each death, not True Reset-related.
It has a lot of reason to be considered a different thing, like the fact that Frisk can tank Asriel attacks but wouldn't do anything against a True Reset.
To add more, there's also this bit which would either disprove the Low 2-C tier for his base, or just 2-B Asriel in general:
SAVING over ASRIEL's file seems like the only way to defeat him..." "But having never SAVED before, you lack the power to do it. [Struggle #5 if the protagonist has no save file]
The narrator basically imply you could save and load at this time (if not for Asriel having equal DT), meaning the timeline still has time and space to an extent. As such, "purging the timeline" would just be 3-A, which wouldn't make any incoherences anyway.
Also note that this happen when Asriel is already in his full power, meaning that if he's supposedly ending the whole multiverse with his presence, Save files wouldn't even be a thing.
All of this kinda point toward "only True Reset is 2-B" at best.
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He is probably talking about Flowey's timelines, since they happened before Frisk even fell
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Uhhh. Says nothing on wiki about sans not mentioning timelines stopping and starting without saves. No clue how i managed to make that mistake but the sans argument is null. My apologies.
It's not stated to be so. Asriel flat out said that the reset needed Frisk's defeat. Not to mention that "world is ending" part is from the same unreliable narrator who says this like "absolute god of death", "legendary being" and is pretty much hyperbolic the whole fight.
Undertale is filled with hyperboles and joking context from basically everyone. That doesnt mean the narrator or anyone else is unreliable even when they are clearly making a serious statement. Also im pretty sure god of hyperdeath is something asriel would self proclaim.
Yes, asriels plan was to defeat frisk whos determination stopped him from doing the reset, take over the timeline and then perform the true reset. But whos to say he cant start the process? He had the power to do this, its only frisk that was stopping him, nothing else. Your argument beforehand sounds like you were implying asriels world ending was him resetting everything after purging the timeline. But the basis of general resetting is undoing something and set it back to its original state. World ending is said after asriel has purged the timeline and the reset comes after the timeline is dealt with. The only other context for world ever given is the game itself being the thing thats destroyed before restoring it. That is at minimum supporting evidence.
While it's arguably true for Chara, Frisk's determination is his own. Anything more is on the theory side rather than the factual one.
You probably didnt read the link between chara and frisk section in the explanation page so ill explain it in short.
Frisk falls onto the bed of flowers that charas souless body was buried under. Which through determination brought them to life. Essentially "giving something without a soul the will to live", just like with flowey. Flowey points out that chara is an empty husk controlling a stolen body and soul just like him. Sans describes the players persistence to play the game and find the endings as an act of determination. The point is, frisk and his soul is being posessed by chara in the same flowey posesses his own flower, and both chara and asriel are brought to life in the same manner. With the difference being that the player is the source of determination which chara outright says is from you. With frisks personality being left deliberately ambigious for the player to project their emotions onto, which in turn influences chara and her mentality.
This also solidifies earlier what i said about determination being a power increase. The players determination is implied to be rising in the genocide route and chara will make refference to your increase in strength (with lv and determination being the two things that were actually increasing). And that frisks determination is not his own. Its always been the players. Without it chara would never be a part of frisk.
Memories bit was about Frisk being forgotten with each death, not True Reset-related. It has a lot of reason to be considered a different thing, like the fact that Frisk can tank Asriel attacks but wouldn't do anything against a True Reset.
"everyones progress, everyones memories" being set back to zero had nothing to do with frisks repeated deaths. That came later. Frisk being unaffected by a true reset is just no resistance to time manip on that level. Everyone including chara is sent back by a true reset once everythings restored.
The narrator basically imply you could save and load at this time (if not for Asriel having equal DT), meaning the timeline still has time and space to an extent. As such, "purging the timeline" would just be 3-A, which wouldn't make any incoherences anyway. Also note that this happen when Asriel is already in his full power, meaning that if he's supposedly ending the whole multiverse with his presence, Save files wouldn't even be a thing.
This doesnt imply you can save and load at that time. Its just saying that you could theoretically reload if you had one to escape to. When you fight asriel after saving your save file ability is gone at least story wise. So no, frisks file was never a thing in that instance. Not to mention files can likely exist seperate from the timeline considering floweys creation of multiple of these.
It's not stated to be so. Asriel flat out said that the reset needed Frisk's defeat. Not to mention that "world is ending" part is from the same unreliable narrator who says this like "absolute god of death", "legendary being" and is pretty much hyperbolic the whole fight.
Undertale is filled with hyperboles and joking context from basically everyone. That doesnt mean the narrator or anyone else is unreliable even when they are clearly making a serious statement. Also im pretty sure god of hyperdeath is something asriel would self proclaim.
Yes, asriels plan was to defeat frisk whos determination stopped him from doing the reset, take over the timeline and then perform the true reset. But whos to say he cant start the process? He had the power to do this, its only frisk that was stopping him, nothing else. Your argument beforehand sounds like you were implying asriels world ending was him resetting everything after purging the timeline. But the basis of general resetting is undoing something and set it back to its original state. World ending is said after asriel has purged the timeline and the reset comes after the timeline is dealt with. The only other context for world ever given is the game itself being the thing thats destroyed before restoring it. That is at minimum supporting evidence.
While it's arguably true for Chara, Frisk's determination is his own. Anything more is on the theory side rather than the factual one.
You probably didnt read the link between chara and frisk section in the explanation page so ill explain it in short.
Frisk falls onto the bed of flowers that charas souless body was buried under. Which through determination brought them to life. Essentially "giving something without a soul the will to live", just like with flowey. Flowey points out that chara is an empty husk controlling a stolen body and soul just like him. Sans describes the players persistence to play the game and find the endings as an act of determination. The point is, frisk and his soul is being posessed by chara in the same flowey posesses his own flower, and both chara and asriel are brought to life in the same manner. With the difference being that the player is the source of determination which chara outright says is from you. With frisks personality being left deliberately ambigious for the player to project their emotions onto, which in turn influences chara and her mentality.
This also solidifies earlier what i said about determination being a power increase. The players determination is implied to be rising in the genocide route and chara will make refference to your increase in strength (with lv and determination being the two things that were actually increasing). And that frisks determination is not his own. Its always been the players. Without it chara would never be a part of frisk.
Memories bit was about Frisk being forgotten with each death, not True Reset-related. It has a lot of reason to be considered a different thing, like the fact that Frisk can tank Asriel attacks but wouldn't do anything against a True Reset.
"everyones progress, everyones memories" being set back to zero had nothing to do with frisks repeated deaths. That came later. Frisk being unaffected by a true reset is just no resistance to time manip on that level. Everyone including chara is sent back by a true reset once everythings restored.
The narrator basically imply you could save and load at this time (if not for Asriel having equal DT), meaning the timeline still has time and space to an extent. As such, "purging the timeline" would just be 3-A, which wouldn't make any incoherences anyway. Also note that this happen when Asriel is already in his full power, meaning that if he's supposedly ending the whole multiverse with his presence, Save files wouldn't even be a thing.
This doesnt imply you can save and load at that time. Its just saying that you could theoretically reload if you had one to escape to. When you fight asriel after saving your save file ability is gone at least story wise. So no, frisks file was never a thing in that instance. Not to mention files can likely exist seperate from the timeline considering floweys creation of multiple of these.
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The God Tier revision are hella wrong and here's why.
We can debate them until the non-god tiers are settled
We can debate them until the non-god tiers are settled
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There’s only supposed to be one CRT at a time. If you have a CRT, you either have to wait or discuss it in this one.
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Yeah, sorry, I'll wait for my CRT then
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All that I see BTW is just an attempted way to downgrade the verse to 9-B for some calcks taken randomly, however:
You've just debunked yourself, is voice-based, so is blantantly sound-speed his attack.
- You're ignoring this calc, and, without a debunk against it, the 9-A ratings will stay.
- The fact that the bark was in words means completely nothing, is just art-style.
You've just debunked yourself, is voice-based, so is blantantly sound-speed his attack.
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I expected the blogs to be open when the ctrs were open and released this kinda early not thinking straight so my apologies for that. Though they are supposed to open later today so, im just waiting so i can do that with the sans calc. If it gets disapproved then its about deciding sans tier, adjusting the scaling i brought up to that if the new scaling is generally is agreed on. Frisk should still be wall level scaling to the fall chara survived as a child, however monsters around this tier would be must lower with their weaknesses as a result and it would be listed.
The 9-A ratings are straight up heat feats and dont even work for our standards anymore. Ig i could i add that to the op if it helps.
Im questioning the sound now mainly because it was virtually a gag feat and i didnt debunk myself. The point is that attacks are based mostly on emotion rather than .
For your revisions well.
Mftl+ god tiers i agree with. But they were rejected for reasons i find questionable tbh.
Low 2-C photoshop flowey i disagree with due to save files only storing information from the reset point to when frisk saves, which is only a small part of the timeline (unquantifiable). However i agree with asriel being 2-B via true reset and the anomaly for that and where chara gets their power from to begin with.
Speed of light seems way to far above their other feats and should be more concrete than a likely magical representation to give a rating like that.
Durability negation was downgraded because they attack the body but soul manip stayed. Im proposing their soul attacks function as siginificant extra damage since frisk uses magical items to adapt to this.
I think flowey and asriel just work better and are easier seperate especially if were giving asriel different keys with one soul and base
I disagree with low godly since frisk reforms through determination which is a type of force which can even be contained, and his soul is not completely destroyed. Mid godly as far as im aware requires you to be erased completely.
I heavily disagree with the higher dimensional and omnipresence stuff. As well as annoying dogs acausality and concept manip. Some of that stuff has been discussed and rejected before as far as im aware.
The 9-A ratings are straight up heat feats and dont even work for our standards anymore. Ig i could i add that to the op if it helps.
Im questioning the sound now mainly because it was virtually a gag feat and i didnt debunk myself. The point is that attacks are based mostly on emotion rather than .
For your revisions well.
Mftl+ god tiers i agree with. But they were rejected for reasons i find questionable tbh.
Low 2-C photoshop flowey i disagree with due to save files only storing information from the reset point to when frisk saves, which is only a small part of the timeline (unquantifiable). However i agree with asriel being 2-B via true reset and the anomaly for that and where chara gets their power from to begin with.
Speed of light seems way to far above their other feats and should be more concrete than a likely magical representation to give a rating like that.
Durability negation was downgraded because they attack the body but soul manip stayed. Im proposing their soul attacks function as siginificant extra damage since frisk uses magical items to adapt to this.
I think flowey and asriel just work better and are easier seperate especially if were giving asriel different keys with one soul and base
I disagree with low godly since frisk reforms through determination which is a type of force which can even be contained, and his soul is not completely destroyed. Mid godly as far as im aware requires you to be erased completely.
I heavily disagree with the higher dimensional and omnipresence stuff. As well as annoying dogs acausality and concept manip. Some of that stuff has been discussed and rejected before as far as im aware.
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>The 9-A ratings are straight up heat feats and dont even work for our standards anymore.
Link where it was rejected because things as vaporizing a planet or a human with mere heat are still feats with accepted blogs.
>Im questioning the sound now mainly because it was virtually a gag feat and i didnt debunk myself. The point is that attacks are based mostly on emotion rather than .
Nice headcanons over there. Nothing impied that is emotion based, but is also contradicting the style of Undertale about the design of the attacks.
>Mftl+ god tiers i agree with. But they were rejected for reasons i find questionable tbh.
The reason was basically "muh the timeline was destroyed not the universe, plus there are just assumptions!", ignoring all the context, plus now saying that affecting a timeline =/= affecting an universe is just... no.
>Low 2-C photoshop flowey i disagree with due to save files only storing information from the reset point to when frisk saves, which is only a small part of the timeline (unquantifiable).
Nice strawman, I never mentioned the SAVE Files being timelines, I just said that Flowey heavily implied to have destroyes just the timeline where he was since there are some evidences (like him rewriting the reality to FLOWEYTALE and the distorted intro implying that anything was vanished), so this argument is irrilevant asf.
>Speed of light seems way to far above their other feats and should be more concrete than a likely magical representation to give a rating like that.
Another strawman, I never said "upgrade them all to SoL!", I just said that there's the possibility that these attacks are SoL due to them being related to the Sun and the Moon, so the possibility exists, that why I said possibly Speed of Light, the difference is important. It being magic is kinda irrilevant.
>Durability negation was downgraded because they attack the body but soul manip stayed. Im proposing their soul attacks function as siginificant extra damage since frisk uses magical items to adapt to this.
This doesen't make sense at all, is implied that they attack both the body and the SOUL, heck, the SOUL shatters when Frisk dies, this is pretty mucg a good SOUL Manip here.
>I think flowey and asriel just work better and are easier seperate especially if were giving asriel different keys with one soul and base
There are characters with even 6 keys, and now Flowey shouldn't because 4 are too much despite a whole lot of characters here have 4 keys? What are you trying to say exactly?
>I disagree with low godly since frisk reforms through determination which is a type of force which can even be contained, and his soul is not completely destroyed. Mid godly as far as im aware requires you to be erased completely.
Except that when the HPs reach 0 the SOUL always shatters, meaning that is destroyed. Low Godly requires that the Soul is intact to reform the body, if Frisk had just Low Godly, he couldn't return to fight against Asriel.
>I heavily disagree with the higher dimensional and omnipresence stuff. As well as annoying dogs acausality and concept manip. Some of that stuff has been discussed and rejected before as far as im aware.
It was rejected because the previous reasons were extremely dumb and badly justified. However the reasons I've said are more than legit unless someone debunks them with more than just "already rejected" without a proper debunk
Link where it was rejected because things as vaporizing a planet or a human with mere heat are still feats with accepted blogs.
>Im questioning the sound now mainly because it was virtually a gag feat and i didnt debunk myself. The point is that attacks are based mostly on emotion rather than .
Nice headcanons over there. Nothing impied that is emotion based, but is also contradicting the style of Undertale about the design of the attacks.
>Mftl+ god tiers i agree with. But they were rejected for reasons i find questionable tbh.
The reason was basically "muh the timeline was destroyed not the universe, plus there are just assumptions!", ignoring all the context, plus now saying that affecting a timeline =/= affecting an universe is just... no.
>Low 2-C photoshop flowey i disagree with due to save files only storing information from the reset point to when frisk saves, which is only a small part of the timeline (unquantifiable).
Nice strawman, I never mentioned the SAVE Files being timelines, I just said that Flowey heavily implied to have destroyes just the timeline where he was since there are some evidences (like him rewriting the reality to FLOWEYTALE and the distorted intro implying that anything was vanished), so this argument is irrilevant asf.
>Speed of light seems way to far above their other feats and should be more concrete than a likely magical representation to give a rating like that.
Another strawman, I never said "upgrade them all to SoL!", I just said that there's the possibility that these attacks are SoL due to them being related to the Sun and the Moon, so the possibility exists, that why I said possibly Speed of Light, the difference is important. It being magic is kinda irrilevant.
>Durability negation was downgraded because they attack the body but soul manip stayed. Im proposing their soul attacks function as siginificant extra damage since frisk uses magical items to adapt to this.
This doesen't make sense at all, is implied that they attack both the body and the SOUL, heck, the SOUL shatters when Frisk dies, this is pretty mucg a good SOUL Manip here.
>I think flowey and asriel just work better and are easier seperate especially if were giving asriel different keys with one soul and base
There are characters with even 6 keys, and now Flowey shouldn't because 4 are too much despite a whole lot of characters here have 4 keys? What are you trying to say exactly?
>I disagree with low godly since frisk reforms through determination which is a type of force which can even be contained, and his soul is not completely destroyed. Mid godly as far as im aware requires you to be erased completely.
Except that when the HPs reach 0 the SOUL always shatters, meaning that is destroyed. Low Godly requires that the Soul is intact to reform the body, if Frisk had just Low Godly, he couldn't return to fight against Asriel.
>I heavily disagree with the higher dimensional and omnipresence stuff. As well as annoying dogs acausality and concept manip. Some of that stuff has been discussed and rejected before as far as im aware.
It was rejected because the previous reasons were extremely dumb and badly justified. However the reasons I've said are more than legit unless someone debunks them with more than just "already rejected" without a proper debunk
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>Yeah, and i brought up that sailor moon has a similar feat accepted. I honestly cant imagine something getting sucked into the epicenter of that thing couldnt be mftl+ tbh. Best to save it for later.
>Oh thats what you meant! Mb. That honestly just seems like really good data and information manip in being able to change the games name and intro rather than timeline destruction. And for "they all disappeared without a trace". Even taking that to face value would just be a feat of killing every human and monster which could easily be done by a tier 6.
>I know, but even as a possibility rating i find it questionable to assume them real solar flares and give a feat that higher end. They basically come from a small magical sun in the form of projectiles as more of a representation of that happening. Seems to have the same problems as vulkins lightning minus the whole not meeting cloud to ground lightning standards thing.
>They are damaging a non physical part of frisk and bringing it close to death, destroying the soul first yeah. But thats just proves it kills frisk quicker. But when theyre hitting the body to do so and the attacks stop as soon as they hit frisk, youre not actually bypassing that durability completely and most of the attack would get blocked out by that if the opponent were theoretically to durable. Sans at least has the benefit of his attacks totally phasing through frisks body and dealing damage as he remains in the area of them which is why i support him having full durability negation.
>Flowey is more like a husk of asriel controlling a flower and generally functions so much different from normal asriel down to their own nature, i think it just works better seperate unless everyone else things otherwise.
>It shatters after death screens before save and load brings you back. But in asriels case frisk has his soul split, not completely shattered.
Also "The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other nonphysical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else."
Frisk uses determination (an emotion normally in the soul that manifests as a type of powerful force in verse) to reform himself from near complete soul destruction which should fall under low godly
>Well... Im not gonna debate charas omnipresent stuff for now. But asriels isnt even close. His attack shaking the buttons and covering them is not an omnipresent feat at all. Its like, data manipulating widespread energy attack at best. For the phone call, it could be flowey faking his voice? Even if it is asriel sending a phone message back in time, this is not higher dimensional or omnipresense, at all.
>Oh thats what you meant! Mb. That honestly just seems like really good data and information manip in being able to change the games name and intro rather than timeline destruction. And for "they all disappeared without a trace". Even taking that to face value would just be a feat of killing every human and monster which could easily be done by a tier 6.
>I know, but even as a possibility rating i find it questionable to assume them real solar flares and give a feat that higher end. They basically come from a small magical sun in the form of projectiles as more of a representation of that happening. Seems to have the same problems as vulkins lightning minus the whole not meeting cloud to ground lightning standards thing.
>They are damaging a non physical part of frisk and bringing it close to death, destroying the soul first yeah. But thats just proves it kills frisk quicker. But when theyre hitting the body to do so and the attacks stop as soon as they hit frisk, youre not actually bypassing that durability completely and most of the attack would get blocked out by that if the opponent were theoretically to durable. Sans at least has the benefit of his attacks totally phasing through frisks body and dealing damage as he remains in the area of them which is why i support him having full durability negation.
>Flowey is more like a husk of asriel controlling a flower and generally functions so much different from normal asriel down to their own nature, i think it just works better seperate unless everyone else things otherwise.
>It shatters after death screens before save and load brings you back. But in asriels case frisk has his soul split, not completely shattered.
Also "The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other nonphysical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else."
Frisk uses determination (an emotion normally in the soul that manifests as a type of powerful force in verse) to reform himself from near complete soul destruction which should fall under low godly
>Well... Im not gonna debate charas omnipresent stuff for now. But asriels isnt even close. His attack shaking the buttons and covering them is not an omnipresent feat at all. Its like, data manipulating widespread energy attack at best. For the phone call, it could be flowey faking his voice? Even if it is asriel sending a phone message back in time, this is not higher dimensional or omnipresense, at all.
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Oh hold on
>Heat feats were disregarded by the likes of minecraft mobs and replaced and pretty much everyone has talked about this. I dunno where the thread is. Vaporisation feats arent always done through heat and can be done through force much like pulverisation etc
>Read the explanation page under the monsters and humans section. Everything they make is created through expressing themselves through magic. Their souls and the entirety of their being as a result is built on emotion which is why their weaknesses function the way they do.
>Heat feats were disregarded by the likes of minecraft mobs and replaced and pretty much everyone has talked about this. I dunno where the thread is. Vaporisation feats arent always done through heat and can be done through force much like pulverisation etc
>Read the explanation page under the monsters and humans section. Everything they make is created through expressing themselves through magic. Their souls and the entirety of their being as a result is built on emotion which is why their weaknesses function the way they do.
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>Oh thats what you meant! Mb. That honestly just seems like really good data and information manip in being able to change the games name and intro rather than timeline destruction. And for "they all disappeared without a trace". Even taking that to face value would just be a feat of killing every human and monster which could easily be done by a tier 6.
Except that anything was in the total void, a thing similar to Chara's destruction, so at very least a timeline destruction. Plus, shutting down the game with force and messing up with the datas like that is impossible for a being lower than Low 2-C.
>I know, but even as a possibility rating i find it questionable to assume them real solar flares and give a feat that higher end. They basically come from a small magical sun in the form of projectiles as more of a representation of that happening. Seems to have the same problems as vulkins lightning minus the whole not meeting cloud to ground lightning standards thing.
"Possibly" rating kinda fits Knight Knight's sun attacks tbh.
>They are damaging a non physical part of frisk and bringing it close to death, destroying the soul first yeah. But thats just proves it kills frisk quicker. But when theyre hitting the body to do so and the attacks stop as soon as they hit frisk, youre not actually bypassing that durability completely and most of the attack would get blocked out by that if the opponent were theoretically to durable. Sans at least has the benefit of his attacks totally phasing through frisks body and dealing damage as he remains in the area of them which is why i support him having full durability negation.
Is because Undertale verse treats SOUL attacks as physical ones, but in fights is clear that the SOUL is the target too, not just the body. You're violating one of the verse rules, which is that both the body and the SOUL are hit when an Undertale character attacks. You can't dismiss like that, it just mean that they tank SOUL attacks as physical ones and nothing else.
>Flowey is more like a husk of asriel controlling a flower and generally functions so much different from normal asriel down to their own nature, i think it just works better seperate unless everyone else things otherwise.
Asriel refers to Flowey as a past version of himself, I don't see why they shouldn't be counted as the same character in the same profile.
>It shatters after death screens before save and load brings you back. But in asriels case frisk has his soul split, not completely shattered.
The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other nonphysical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else.
You're acting like Determination is a metaphysical energy omnipresent in the verse and that DT users can use, nothing more wrong.
Except that:
Plus, you act like Low Godly can function even with the SOUL messed up, but no, because Low Godly is reliant on things as Mind or Soul, non-corporeal things of a living being.
Plus it was clear that Determination could already recover from EE with Flowey, who implied that any of his deaths was an EE since he lacked a SOUL, so he'd no exist anymore without a SOUL.
Frisk's DT in base is already superior to Flowey's which can recover from EE, so I don't see how they wouldn't have Mid-Godly if a far weaker DT can already recove someone who had both the body and SOUL gone.
Now I'd like to know how, with a weaker degree of DT one can recover from death, and death means even EE, but with one who got it so strong which can even resurrect with DT only, but can't resurrect from EE. I'm kinda curious.
>Well... Im not gonna debate charas omnipresent stuff for now. But asriels isnt even close. His attack shaking the buttons and covering them is not an omnipresent feat at all. Its like, data manipulating widespread energy attack at best. For the phone call, it could be flowey faking his voice? Even if it is asriel sending a phone message back in time, this is not higher dimensional or omnipresense, at all.
First: You can see him covering all the space, not just the button, and was even passively erasing the multiverse, meaning that he was one with all the space.
Second: Flowey can mimic voices of only characters he knows, he can't make made-up voices from himself. How can he know how to mimic the voice of a form he didn't master yet? Plus Flowey hasn't a phone in his base form, it is quite obvious that it happened while he was in God Asriel form.
>Heat feats were disregarded by the likes of minecraft mobs and replaced and pretty much everyone has talked about this. I dunno where the thread is. Vaporisation feats arent always done through heat and can be done through force much like pulverisation etc
Both the blogs I've linked use heat, so what's your point?
>Read the explanation page under the monsters and humans section. Everything they make is created through expressing themselves through magic. Their souls and the entirety of their being as a result is built on emotion which is why their weaknesses function the way they do.
Them being made of magic doesen't mean that their talk now is slower than regular sound now, unless now humans hear monster's words later than other sounds because "their words are made of magic". The attack was made of a bark, it being Subsonic is tooo obvious.
Except that anything was in the total void, a thing similar to Chara's destruction, so at very least a timeline destruction. Plus, shutting down the game with force and messing up with the datas like that is impossible for a being lower than Low 2-C.
>I know, but even as a possibility rating i find it questionable to assume them real solar flares and give a feat that higher end. They basically come from a small magical sun in the form of projectiles as more of a representation of that happening. Seems to have the same problems as vulkins lightning minus the whole not meeting cloud to ground lightning standards thing.
"Possibly" rating kinda fits Knight Knight's sun attacks tbh.
>They are damaging a non physical part of frisk and bringing it close to death, destroying the soul first yeah. But thats just proves it kills frisk quicker. But when theyre hitting the body to do so and the attacks stop as soon as they hit frisk, youre not actually bypassing that durability completely and most of the attack would get blocked out by that if the opponent were theoretically to durable. Sans at least has the benefit of his attacks totally phasing through frisks body and dealing damage as he remains in the area of them which is why i support him having full durability negation.
Is because Undertale verse treats SOUL attacks as physical ones, but in fights is clear that the SOUL is the target too, not just the body. You're violating one of the verse rules, which is that both the body and the SOUL are hit when an Undertale character attacks. You can't dismiss like that, it just mean that they tank SOUL attacks as physical ones and nothing else.
>Flowey is more like a husk of asriel controlling a flower and generally functions so much different from normal asriel down to their own nature, i think it just works better seperate unless everyone else things otherwise.
Asriel refers to Flowey as a past version of himself, I don't see why they shouldn't be counted as the same character in the same profile.
>It shatters after death screens before save and load brings you back. But in asriels case frisk has his soul split, not completely shattered.
The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other nonphysical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else.
You're acting like Determination is a metaphysical energy omnipresent in the verse and that DT users can use, nothing more wrong.
Except that:
- Determination is physical as someone can physically extract it
- The amount of DT varies from person to person
Plus, you act like Low Godly can function even with the SOUL messed up, but no, because Low Godly is reliant on things as Mind or Soul, non-corporeal things of a living being.
Plus it was clear that Determination could already recover from EE with Flowey, who implied that any of his deaths was an EE since he lacked a SOUL, so he'd no exist anymore without a SOUL.
Frisk's DT in base is already superior to Flowey's which can recover from EE, so I don't see how they wouldn't have Mid-Godly if a far weaker DT can already recove someone who had both the body and SOUL gone.
Now I'd like to know how, with a weaker degree of DT one can recover from death, and death means even EE, but with one who got it so strong which can even resurrect with DT only, but can't resurrect from EE. I'm kinda curious.
>Well... Im not gonna debate charas omnipresent stuff for now. But asriels isnt even close. His attack shaking the buttons and covering them is not an omnipresent feat at all. Its like, data manipulating widespread energy attack at best. For the phone call, it could be flowey faking his voice? Even if it is asriel sending a phone message back in time, this is not higher dimensional or omnipresense, at all.
First: You can see him covering all the space, not just the button, and was even passively erasing the multiverse, meaning that he was one with all the space.
Second: Flowey can mimic voices of only characters he knows, he can't make made-up voices from himself. How can he know how to mimic the voice of a form he didn't master yet? Plus Flowey hasn't a phone in his base form, it is quite obvious that it happened while he was in God Asriel form.
>Heat feats were disregarded by the likes of minecraft mobs and replaced and pretty much everyone has talked about this. I dunno where the thread is. Vaporisation feats arent always done through heat and can be done through force much like pulverisation etc
Both the blogs I've linked use heat, so what's your point?
>Read the explanation page under the monsters and humans section. Everything they make is created through expressing themselves through magic. Their souls and the entirety of their being as a result is built on emotion which is why their weaknesses function the way they do.
Them being made of magic doesen't mean that their talk now is slower than regular sound now, unless now humans hear monster's words later than other sounds because "their words are made of magic". The attack was made of a bark, it being Subsonic is tooo obvious.
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Just... ask one of the staff whats happening with heat feats. Because i know its talked about everywhere and minecraft mobs were safely downgraded (then reupgraded due to explosions) because of it. Its more heat being separated from force. So undertale chars may be wall level, small building level against heat in the future.
>Just because charas feat crashed the game and caused a blackscreen, doesnt mean anybody who crashes the game and causes a blackscreen is doing something similar. All flowey has to do is kick the player out and create an empty room. It doesnt affect the games reality on that scale and the verse normally treats this as the player simply leaving. And messing with data like has no reason to be on a universal scale or anything. Its just data manip.
>It still has to have some basis to grant a possibly rating, and a simple representation like this i dont think will. Also i think this has been on the profiles years ago and was downgraded.
>"Soul attacks are treat as physical ones" It seems more the other way around to me. The soul is explicitely non physical (Ghosts having souls, soul attuned monsters having low physicality as a result, based on emotion etc) and while it is targeted yes. The monsters have to do this by attacking the body, hence why frisk is treat as moving his body to avoid these attacks which stop damaging as soon as they land. If theyre targeting a non physical part of frisk by landing a hit on his body then this does not follow dura neg. Its just another layer of damage. If they hit the soul DIRECTLY and frisk took that as a normal attack then id get what you mean, but thats not how it works.
>You dont need a soul to have determination. Its just where it normally comes from and where alphys extracted it from (where did you even get "it comes from the body"?). Its treat by alphys as being "the will to keep living" and treat by everyone as being willpower to keep going and on top of that is found in a non physical soul. Extracting something doesnt instantly mean physical. We dont have information on how the machine extracts determination or what it does to it but generally monsters can interact with non physical things so... ill let you think about that.
I phrased it weirdly but no, its not omnipresent, never said that. Its just a powerful emotion which grants powers. Flowey did not regenerate from existence erasure. Save and load recovers you from complete destruction through time manip and ressurection. Its not mid godly. Its only in frisks case where he actually regenerates which is again, through a powerful emotion he posesses and not even the total destruction of his soul.
>He covered the space at the bottom of the screen with an energy blast... not omnipresence. He was ending the multiverse by existing... still not omnipresence. That would just be being 2-B.
>Strawman. I never said it makes their talk slower. I said it means their attacks are based on expressing themselves. Which makes the idea of it being sound to be questionable. And when performed in an attack can be altered in movement speed as shown by shyren.
>Just because charas feat crashed the game and caused a blackscreen, doesnt mean anybody who crashes the game and causes a blackscreen is doing something similar. All flowey has to do is kick the player out and create an empty room. It doesnt affect the games reality on that scale and the verse normally treats this as the player simply leaving. And messing with data like has no reason to be on a universal scale or anything. Its just data manip.
>It still has to have some basis to grant a possibly rating, and a simple representation like this i dont think will. Also i think this has been on the profiles years ago and was downgraded.
>"Soul attacks are treat as physical ones" It seems more the other way around to me. The soul is explicitely non physical (Ghosts having souls, soul attuned monsters having low physicality as a result, based on emotion etc) and while it is targeted yes. The monsters have to do this by attacking the body, hence why frisk is treat as moving his body to avoid these attacks which stop damaging as soon as they land. If theyre targeting a non physical part of frisk by landing a hit on his body then this does not follow dura neg. Its just another layer of damage. If they hit the soul DIRECTLY and frisk took that as a normal attack then id get what you mean, but thats not how it works.
>You dont need a soul to have determination. Its just where it normally comes from and where alphys extracted it from (where did you even get "it comes from the body"?). Its treat by alphys as being "the will to keep living" and treat by everyone as being willpower to keep going and on top of that is found in a non physical soul. Extracting something doesnt instantly mean physical. We dont have information on how the machine extracts determination or what it does to it but generally monsters can interact with non physical things so... ill let you think about that.
I phrased it weirdly but no, its not omnipresent, never said that. Its just a powerful emotion which grants powers. Flowey did not regenerate from existence erasure. Save and load recovers you from complete destruction through time manip and ressurection. Its not mid godly. Its only in frisks case where he actually regenerates which is again, through a powerful emotion he posesses and not even the total destruction of his soul.
>He covered the space at the bottom of the screen with an energy blast... not omnipresence. He was ending the multiverse by existing... still not omnipresence. That would just be being 2-B.
>Strawman. I never said it makes their talk slower. I said it means their attacks are based on expressing themselves. Which makes the idea of it being sound to be questionable. And when performed in an attack can be altered in movement speed as shown by shyren.
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Yeah I am agreeing with Ultra here, however I am fine with anything that isn't 10-C
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Same lol, 10-C is what is really wrong to me
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>Just because charas feat crashed the game and caused a blackscreen, doesnt mean anybody who crashes the game and causes a blackscreen is doing something similar. All flowey has to do is kick the player out and create an empty room. It doesnt affect the games reality on that scale and the verse normally treats this as the player simply leaving. And messing with data like has no reason to be on a universal scale or anything. Its just data manip.
First: What you linked to me was just sans saying to Frisk "You'll have to learn to QUIT", how's that related?
Second: Headcanon, you can see Flowey messing up with anything, I'm pretty curious to see how that's not Low 2-C, since him crashing the game SAVE file, messing up with the reality and destroying anything isn't a Low 2-C feat. Because Undertale is metafictional, so since destroying the entirely of the game means 2-B potency, I really don't see Flowey's feat not being Low 2-C, given the context.
>It still has to have some basis to grant a possibly rating, and a simple representation like this i dont think will. Also i think this has been on the profiles years ago and was downgraded.
The fact thet it uses the sun and the moon isn't a basis now? Is clearly a reference to it, so it's likely be based on sunlight for the attacks. The yours is just denying the evicence.
>"Soul attacks are treat as physical ones" It seems more the other way around to me. The soul is explicitely non physical (Ghosts having souls, soul attuned monsters having low physicality as a result, based on emotion etc) and while it is targeted yes. The monsters have to do this by attacking the body, hence why frisk is treat as moving his body to avoid these attacks which stop damaging as soon as they land. If theyre targeting a non physical part of frisk by landing a hit on his body then this does not follow dura neg. Its just another layer of damage. If they hit the soul DIRECTLY and frisk took that as a normal attack then id get what you mean, but thats not how it works.
Except that you can clearly see the SOUL being damaged with a visible reaction as well when is hit, so they attack both the body and the SOUL, that's why they have SOUL Manipulation. And yes, there's evidence that the SOUL gets stronger with the body, for example Flowey says that with LV, the SOUL can become stronger, and sans says that the more you get LV, the more the physical stats increase, so the SOUL is strong as the body in the verse, aka they have attacks which hit directly the body and the SOUL and any Undertale character has resistance to such hax, due to tanking SOUL attacks as physical ones.
>You dont need a soul to have determination. Its just where it normally comes from and where alphys extracted it from (where did you even get "it comes from the body"?). Its treat by alphys as being "the will to keep living" and treat by everyone as being willpower to keep going and on top of that is found in a non physical soul. Extracting something doesnt instantly mean physical. We dont have information on how the machine extracts determination or what it does to it but generally monsters can interact with non physical things so... ill let you think about that.
I phrased it weirdly but no, its not omnipresent, never said that. Its just a powerful emotion which grants powers. Flowey did not regenerate from existence erasure. Save and load recovers you from complete destruction through time manip and ressurection. Its not mid godly. Its only in frisks case where he actually regenerates which is again, through a powerful emotion he posesses and not even the total destruction of his soul.
It coming from be body is logical, since Alphys extracted it from Human bodies and injected it in Monster bodies and in the flower that became Flowey. Also the fact of Undyne not becoming dust but even transforming thanks to it is pretty much a clue of DT being a physical substance.
Plus is strawman, I never said that Base Flowey can regenerate from EE, but that he can resurrect from it thank to his DT. Since Pacifist Frisk, a being with almost an infinitely superior DT, could istantly regenerate from death, making it their base DT (which was already superior to base Flowey's) but with steroids, I don't see how it can't recover from EE, since in DT perspective death means both regular death and EE.
>He covered the space at the bottom of the screen with an energy blast... not omnipresence. He was ending the multiverse by existing... still not omnipresence. That would just be being 2-B.
Frisk couldn't dodge nothing since the whole space was covered from his attack, the fact that he affected the buttons too kinda proves it. Plus the fact that he called from the future heavily implies that he became a being omnipresent in all the space-time.
>Strawman. I never said it makes their talk slower. I said it means their attacks are based on expressing themselves. Which makes the idea of it being sound to be questionable. And when performed in an attack can be altered in movement speed as shown by shyren.
That was just just Frisk being fast enough to dodge explosions, with this logic the Dreemurr's fire attacks aren't truly fire since they are like projectiles and and even bounce, while is a clear fire manipulation. The attack being voice-based is still a proof of it being subsonic and you're denying evidence again.
First: What you linked to me was just sans saying to Frisk "You'll have to learn to QUIT", how's that related?
Second: Headcanon, you can see Flowey messing up with anything, I'm pretty curious to see how that's not Low 2-C, since him crashing the game SAVE file, messing up with the reality and destroying anything isn't a Low 2-C feat. Because Undertale is metafictional, so since destroying the entirely of the game means 2-B potency, I really don't see Flowey's feat not being Low 2-C, given the context.
>It still has to have some basis to grant a possibly rating, and a simple representation like this i dont think will. Also i think this has been on the profiles years ago and was downgraded.
The fact thet it uses the sun and the moon isn't a basis now? Is clearly a reference to it, so it's likely be based on sunlight for the attacks. The yours is just denying the evicence.
>"Soul attacks are treat as physical ones" It seems more the other way around to me. The soul is explicitely non physical (Ghosts having souls, soul attuned monsters having low physicality as a result, based on emotion etc) and while it is targeted yes. The monsters have to do this by attacking the body, hence why frisk is treat as moving his body to avoid these attacks which stop damaging as soon as they land. If theyre targeting a non physical part of frisk by landing a hit on his body then this does not follow dura neg. Its just another layer of damage. If they hit the soul DIRECTLY and frisk took that as a normal attack then id get what you mean, but thats not how it works.
Except that you can clearly see the SOUL being damaged with a visible reaction as well when is hit, so they attack both the body and the SOUL, that's why they have SOUL Manipulation. And yes, there's evidence that the SOUL gets stronger with the body, for example Flowey says that with LV, the SOUL can become stronger, and sans says that the more you get LV, the more the physical stats increase, so the SOUL is strong as the body in the verse, aka they have attacks which hit directly the body and the SOUL and any Undertale character has resistance to such hax, due to tanking SOUL attacks as physical ones.
>You dont need a soul to have determination. Its just where it normally comes from and where alphys extracted it from (where did you even get "it comes from the body"?). Its treat by alphys as being "the will to keep living" and treat by everyone as being willpower to keep going and on top of that is found in a non physical soul. Extracting something doesnt instantly mean physical. We dont have information on how the machine extracts determination or what it does to it but generally monsters can interact with non physical things so... ill let you think about that.
I phrased it weirdly but no, its not omnipresent, never said that. Its just a powerful emotion which grants powers. Flowey did not regenerate from existence erasure. Save and load recovers you from complete destruction through time manip and ressurection. Its not mid godly. Its only in frisks case where he actually regenerates which is again, through a powerful emotion he posesses and not even the total destruction of his soul.
It coming from be body is logical, since Alphys extracted it from Human bodies and injected it in Monster bodies and in the flower that became Flowey. Also the fact of Undyne not becoming dust but even transforming thanks to it is pretty much a clue of DT being a physical substance.
Plus is strawman, I never said that Base Flowey can regenerate from EE, but that he can resurrect from it thank to his DT. Since Pacifist Frisk, a being with almost an infinitely superior DT, could istantly regenerate from death, making it their base DT (which was already superior to base Flowey's) but with steroids, I don't see how it can't recover from EE, since in DT perspective death means both regular death and EE.
>He covered the space at the bottom of the screen with an energy blast... not omnipresence. He was ending the multiverse by existing... still not omnipresence. That would just be being 2-B.
Frisk couldn't dodge nothing since the whole space was covered from his attack, the fact that he affected the buttons too kinda proves it. Plus the fact that he called from the future heavily implies that he became a being omnipresent in all the space-time.
>Strawman. I never said it makes their talk slower. I said it means their attacks are based on expressing themselves. Which makes the idea of it being sound to be questionable. And when performed in an attack can be altered in movement speed as shown by shyren.
That was just just Frisk being fast enough to dodge explosions, with this logic the Dreemurr's fire attacks aren't truly fire since they are like projectiles and and even bounce, while is a clear fire manipulation. The attack being voice-based is still a proof of it being subsonic and you're denying evidence again.
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I don't see it wrong since the Amalgamates bodies are an instable mess, anything is possible with them.
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Frisk moving the soul to dodge attacks is completely unrelated to the body btw, you can still move your soul in the Muffet fight even though Frisk is trapped in a web and you can still move your SOUL during the Asriel fight where they explicitely can't move their body
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I always say that as a game mechanics tbf, since otherwise they couldn't win against them, it's pretty much an RPG logic situation.
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I think it's more proof that they attack the soul, not the body
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Frisk moves their body while Undyne attacks them, so not really
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They don't while in Green Mode? They stand still and can only change where they are facing, which is why she only has limited paralisys manip
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You do know I am trying to help your point about soulhax right, that it attacks the soul, not the body? And even in those scenes when Frisk gets hit by a spear their soul can still dodge it even though it hit their body
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Is compleyely without a sense, is not that when they're fighting they project their soul or a similar thing, heack, sans heavily impled to have stabbed their body along with their SOUL. The Spear thing is likely a game mechanic too, since it was clear that Undyne wanted to stab them from the bottom/their top left. How can they be attacked from the top in a simmetrical way when the attack was coming from a completely another direction? This is another game mechanic which contradicts what's happening.
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Every time you get hit by a attack you enter a "FIGHT" where the soul can dodge the attacks even if the body got hit before, I don't see anything in Sans statment implying he stabbed the body and not the soul, but whatever, you argue what's the best argument for soulhax being legit, just don't complain if it gets rejected
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This is still contradicting the fact that the spear were coming from a direction, then, in the ""FIGHT"", the spear were coming from a completely different one, are you serious? This can't be more than a game mechanic to not make Frisk die instantly when they got hit from Undyne, and is clear that is contradicting what was happening in that scene. Also, the fact that sans is inviting Frisk to hug them, after they "spared" him, implies that the attacks were directed to the body too. Why should sans invite a guy to hug them for a betrayal attack if they can just hit the soul while Frisk was off-guard? Another evicence is Flowey that, when he blocked the monsters, Frisk was unable to move, meaning that he blocked their physical movements as well. Is clear that their attacks target both the body and the SOUL, you're just denying evicence.
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