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Major Grappler Baki Powers and Abilities Revisions
- Thread starter Amlad22
- Start date
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A tip from me. Always copy paste anything that takes you more than 1 minute to type.
A tip i got from the great sage Triforce.
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Let's look at the context where the "a speed that goes beyond being too fast"
Before, we get a flashback from Pickle's life on the cretaceous period.
" The primitive man has seen different types of speed on the ground (illustration shows a primitive type of squirrel) in the water (illustration shows a marine animal that doesn't resemble anything from the modern era) in mid air (illustration shows a primitive wasp)
and today once again... for the first time (after being unfrozen)... a speed that goes beyond the concept of too fast "
Then we have another flashback. This one is about Pickle trying to catch a butterfly-like insect and failing miserably.
" In the beggining he was just playing with it but then, he realized that it can go through him like trying to catch the wind (he tries repeteadly with no sucess) he realized he had to be serious... more determined he got it!! yes! the speed and movements were perfect!! (he then opens his hand to realize he failed again) at that moment he finally recognized... in this world there are creatures that can cut and pass through your body like the wind itself... "
Pickle correlates Baki's movements to those of the primitive butterfly. What mainly stopped Pickle from catching the butterfly was its small size, speed, and erroneous movement. All of those can be correlated with Baki, mainly the small size since Baki is 1.67m and Pickle is 2.45m
I think " Limited Pseudo Phaisng" is appropriate, since it's limited to bigger opponents and pseudo since it's not actually phasing.
Before, we get a flashback from Pickle's life on the cretaceous period.
" The primitive man has seen different types of speed on the ground (illustration shows a primitive type of squirrel) in the water (illustration shows a marine animal that doesn't resemble anything from the modern era) in mid air (illustration shows a primitive wasp)
and today once again... for the first time (after being unfrozen)... a speed that goes beyond the concept of too fast "
Then we have another flashback. This one is about Pickle trying to catch a butterfly-like insect and failing miserably.
" In the beggining he was just playing with it but then, he realized that it can go through him like trying to catch the wind (he tries repeteadly with no sucess) he realized he had to be serious... more determined he got it!! yes! the speed and movements were perfect!! (he then opens his hand to realize he failed again) at that moment he finally recognized... in this world there are creatures that can cut and pass through your body like the wind itself... "
Pickle correlates Baki's movements to those of the primitive butterfly. What mainly stopped Pickle from catching the butterfly was its small size, speed, and erroneous movement. All of those can be correlated with Baki, mainly the small size since Baki is 1.67m and Pickle is 2.45m
I think " Limited Pseudo Phaisng" is appropriate, since it's limited to bigger opponents and pseudo since it's not actually phasing.
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It's not phasing, he's not phasing through anything. He's just moving fast. Anyone comparable to him won't be affected. It's not phasing if nothing is going through you at all. Pickle isn't going through Baki, he's going around him (i mean baki is dodging making him go around but you get the point), he just doesn't realize it.
Not phasing.
Not phasing.
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No, just no.
Pseudo is when it achieves a similar effect through other means. He's not even achieving anything, it's just dodging, not going through him.
It's by nature the opposite of phasing though things.
Pseudo is when it achieves a similar effect through other means. He's not even achieving anything, it's just dodging, not going through him.
It's by nature the opposite of phasing though things.
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I gotta start usin the PC for my longer comments...Firephoenixearl said:
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It doesn't achieve even remotely the similar effect.
It's like giving some MFTL+ dude "Pseudo Teleportation" cus to a fodder it might look like he's teleporting.
Same thing here, just cus it looked to some pleb who couldn't keep up with his speed like he was phasing through doesn't mean he is actually phasing through, he's going around, completely different.
Again we give "Pseudo" based on the "similar effect", not "it looks the same in certain occasions but it has nothing to do with how Phasing is actually supposed to work".
So again pls stop arguing this, speed is not phasing, i don't wanna continue in circles. It is afterimage creation as afterimage creation by nature is a power you gain through speed (sometimes forms of mind hax too, but mainly speed).
It's like giving some MFTL+ dude "Pseudo Teleportation" cus to a fodder it might look like he's teleporting.
Same thing here, just cus it looked to some pleb who couldn't keep up with his speed like he was phasing through doesn't mean he is actually phasing through, he's going around, completely different.
Again we give "Pseudo" based on the "similar effect", not "it looks the same in certain occasions but it has nothing to do with how Phasing is actually supposed to work".
So again pls stop arguing this, speed is not phasing, i don't wanna continue in circles. It is afterimage creation as afterimage creation by nature is a power you gain through speed (sometimes forms of mind hax too, but mainly speed).
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Yet he was getting blitzed to hell and back. Scaling is useless in the face of pure facts. Scaling is just us headcannoning based on where we think a certain character stands in terms of stats. When they purely get blitzed, with narration stating "baki is too fast", that throws the scaling out of the window, you can't scale Pickle off of Baki in any way, if by feat and narration he proved to be faster.KGiffoni said:
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However, it being a technique makes more sense and fits perfectly with the speed scaling of the verse. Retsu refers to it repeteadly as a technique, it's shown to be a dodging method (that highly resembles phasing) created by a very famous martial artist (supporting the fact it's a technique), and is compared to the dodging method of butterflies and other flying insects that are hard for humans, who are superior to them in speed, to catch. I think when the narrator refers to it as "a speed that goes beyond the concept of too fast" he talks it as if representing the pov of Pickle, who has 0 knowledge on skills. The skilled martial artists on the audience could identify what was actually happening.
Either that or you make a CRT for the verse.
Either that or you make a CRT for the verse.
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Wait a sec, it might not even be speed.
It's just an optical illusion. He can trick Pickle's eyes, at least that's what the master explained. He just stops making unnecessary movements.
It's just an optical illusion. He can trick Pickle's eyes, at least that's what the master explained. He just stops making unnecessary movements.
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Yes but it's neither speed nor speed amp. Just baki not wasting movements anymore. Skill upgrade if anything at all.
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That's the weird thing, Baki manga some times tries to explain what's going on... even though it's "Word of God", it's wrong, leading to serious confusion
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I think Pseudo intang is okay, because it's specifically outlined on the page that it's actually just dodging, in only looks like intang
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Also can I ask how the **** Benda ignores durability? It really shouldn't even quantify as durability negation, I also have some issues with Benda users having pain manipulation, which is like the equivalent of giving every human pain manipulation for being able to make other humans feel pain.
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Who said anything about a punch? There are several weapons that'll inflict a lot more pain than a whip. If someone hits me with a whip and I feel pain from it that person doesn't have pain manipulation, as that's a natural reaction as opposed to Yujiro and co directly manipulation pain.
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- Thread starter
- #424
Benda isn't just a slap. It's a technique that turns the human body into a whip and allows the user to cause pain so unbearable even the hardiest of men will literally die from the pain. That's where the dura neg comes in. Benda literally kills people through sheer pain. Doesn't matter if they are more durable they can still die from it due to the ridiculous pain it causes.
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... i really hope you guys understand how anatomy and how the human body works. Dying from pain isn't anything unheard of, shit it happens all the time when people go into shock after experiencing a great amount of pain. After a certain amount of pain ( varies from person to person. ) the body can go into neurogenic shock, resulting in loss of consciousness or even death. Again, this isn't a good example of pain manipulation nor is it an example of durability negation. Benda is indeed stronger than a whip but the end result is the same, grievous damage to the skin. The only issue here is that if let's say Yujiro for example were to slap someone who's durability is that much above Yujiro's own AP then it wouldn't even cause damage to begin with.
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I think Prince of Counters makes sense regarding pain manipulation.
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- Thread starter
- #427
Benda Whip has harmed people who are far above the user in terms of durability so I don't know what you mean. If a weaker character can kill a much stronger character with an attack there's clearly some form of durability negation going on. Benda causes an unnatural amount of pain and can kill people far stronger than the user. It's very clear.
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- #428
Literally the definition of durability negation is, The ability that allows users to damage the target, regardless of its durability. In particular, enables causing serious damage to a very strong opponent, even in the absence of large attack potency.
That's Benda Whip. Yanagi is a physically weak character from Grappler Baki, being the weakest and smallest prisoner. Yet his Benda Whip caused Post Sex Baki immense pain. He didn't magically become the strongest prisoner and match Baki, he has an attack that ignores durability by inflicting unnatural amounts of pain.
That's Benda Whip. Yanagi is a physically weak character from Grappler Baki, being the weakest and smallest prisoner. Yet his Benda Whip caused Post Sex Baki immense pain. He didn't magically become the strongest prisoner and match Baki, he has an attack that ignores durability by inflicting unnatural amounts of pain.
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Examples please? The only time I ever recall Benda damaging a stronger character was Baki vs Yujiro ( who are in the same time. ) and Baki vs Yanagi ( again the same tier.) And I've already explained that the pain manipulation is moot. Yanagi while psychically the weakest isn't astronomically weaker than the rest of the death row convicts, he's still perfect capable of hurting other characters due to being in the same tier as him. This isn't a case of a 9-A hurting a 7-A, it's a 9-A harming another 9-A which is perfectly reasonable.
It should also be noted Kunimatsu was referring to whips being used as a form of torture Which they can die of shock from.
Yeah sorry, this in no way is a form of durability negation nor is it pain manipulation.
It should also be noted Kunimatsu was referring to whips being used as a form of torture Which they can die of shock from.
Yeah sorry, this in no way is a form of durability negation nor is it pain manipulation.
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- Thread starter
- #430
Baki was vastly weaker than Yujiro. Same tier doesn't mean same strength. Same goes for Baki and Yanagi. Baki at this point was able to casually beat Yanagi and Sikorsky at the same time. He is At least 9-A likely higher where as Yanagi barely breaks 9-A. They are easily more than a dozen times apart in strength.
Yanagi isn't strong enough to hurt Baki the way he did with Benda. In their first fight Yanagi could only damage Baki with weapons and his poison hand which also ignores durability. Yanagi is much physically weaker that's his entire thing is being dangerous, not strong. The one person he actually hurt badly without weapons, Benda whip or his poison hand was Doyle who is also not that far into 9-A either and was nowhere near full power when the fight happened. There's honestly good arguments for High 9-B Yanagi and Doyle but those haven't gone through yet. Either way my point stand.
Yanagi isn't strong enough to hurt Baki the way he did with Benda. In their first fight Yanagi could only damage Baki with weapons and his poison hand which also ignores durability. Yanagi is much physically weaker that's his entire thing is being dangerous, not strong. The one person he actually hurt badly without weapons, Benda whip or his poison hand was Doyle who is also not that far into 9-A either and was nowhere near full power when the fight happened. There's honestly good arguments for High 9-B Yanagi and Doyle but those haven't gone through yet. Either way my point stand.
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IIRC, Pickle was also immensely stronger than Baki and Baki's benda still worked on him really well
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- #432
This is true as well. That's 3 instances of a weaker character harming a stronger character via Benda. Can't even cry outlier at this point. If the attack didn't ignore durability the way it does, all three times nothing would have happened. No massive amounts of pain would have been inflicted to make the person want to die.
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1: Baki while weaker than Yujiro was still able to damage him and make him bleed. And your second part of your argument makes zero sense, Spec's calc is baseline for his Apnea Rush. There isn't any "dozens times apart in strength." Given that the tier they share isn't that big, and the stronger death row inmates are only baseline 9-A.
2: Again, Doyle is also in the same tier, with not even a + to any of the Death Row inmates, the tier they share is quite literally small enough to the point where they could harm each other. That dosen't mean or support any form of Benda being durability negation. Also Baki is about 100x times more skilled than Yanagi is, Baki being able to treat him like a clown isn't surprising at all.
2: Again, Doyle is also in the same tier, with not even a + to any of the Death Row inmates, the tier they share is quite literally small enough to the point where they could harm each other. That dosen't mean or support any form of Benda being durability negation. Also Baki is about 100x times more skilled than Yanagi is, Baki being able to treat him like a clown isn't surprising at all.
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Baki was literally Low 7-C against Pickle's base form (which is 7-C), yet Benda still worked
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- Thread starter
- #435
Yes three direct punches to the face that Yujiro allowed to happen, caused him to bleed very slightly. Yet Baki's Benda Whip caused his entire body to feel terrible pain with a single slap. Unless you want to argue that 1 slap > 3 punches, that's still proof for Benda having dura neg properties. The difference is very clear.
Yanagi does not scale to Spec's calc he currently scales to being much weaker. However he likely will be closer to baseline or even 9-B like I said after all the planned revision. Yanagi is baseline 9-A where as Baki is likely above 9-A. You're looking at a near 25x gap.
Yanagi had a fight with a far weaker Baki and COULD NOT harm him without WEAPONS OR POISON HAND. I'm not sure how much more clear I can be. You're trying to use Yanagi harming a severely weakened Doyle as an argument that he can harm Baki. That's not how it works. Again, same tier, not same strength.
Yanagi does not scale to Spec's calc he currently scales to being much weaker. However he likely will be closer to baseline or even 9-B like I said after all the planned revision. Yanagi is baseline 9-A where as Baki is likely above 9-A. You're looking at a near 25x gap.
Yanagi had a fight with a far weaker Baki and COULD NOT harm him without WEAPONS OR POISON HAND. I'm not sure how much more clear I can be. You're trying to use Yanagi harming a severely weakened Doyle as an argument that he can harm Baki. That's not how it works. Again, same tier, not same strength.
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- #436
Oblivion also made a great point with Pickle. If your issue is simply the tiers being the same, even though I've already explained that the gaps in tiers can be huge, just look at Baki and Pickle. The two are in different tiers and Benda has the exact same affect.
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I think limited durability negation is fine. Considering it works via literally breaking the opponents skin in a way that causes immense pain it cannot be considered durability negation outright IMO. It implies the implies the technique would work against anyone regardless of durability when this is most certainly a NLF. Having a technique that allows you to damage someone with a bit higher durability then you doesn't automatically qualify for durability negation.
It is NLF as **** to say Brenda would work on anyone regardless of their durability even with the examples provided.
It is NLF as **** to say Brenda would work on anyone regardless of their durability even with the examples provided.
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No, it is not a power, im serious. These are unbelievably reduntant. It is not pseudo intang if nothing is going through his body.BakiHanma18 said:
@KG
No other power, it's just showing that everyone has tons of waste in their moves, whereas baki doesn't do unnecessary movements. Virtually anyone who doesn't make wasteful movements can replicate that.
About benda whip im in full agreement with Prince here. It shouldn't be called pain manip as it doesn't manipulate pain, it just hurts, i can poke ppl's eyeballsn or kick their genitals, doesn't give me pain manip even though it hurts a lot. And it sure as hell is not durability negation. Pain is still caused from damage, pain is the body telling you that something is harming you, you ain't going against someone 1000x stronger and bringing him down with slaps otherwise, the average mom would be able to bring down world rank body builders cus she can make babies cry with a single slap.
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- #439
@Blackcurrent
That's why it's limited like you said. The biggest gap we've seen is that it can harm people 25x stronger than the user but there is no known limit.
@Firephoenix
Again the comparison to a regular slap is brought up for some reason. Benda is a technique. A move granted through training in the way of the void. It is specifically designed to cause abnormal amounts of pain to opponents. Poking someone's eyes or doing any form of damage will hurt yes, but it does the expected amount of pain. Benda does not do the expected amount at all. It's a slap at its core, yet it causes enough pain to kill with just a few hits. Your last example makes no sense as well. Why are you talking about causing pain to weaker people like a baby? Benda is pain manipulation bc it causes pain to people far stronger than the user not weaker. I'm not sure where you misunderstood that.
That's why it's limited like you said. The biggest gap we've seen is that it can harm people 25x stronger than the user but there is no known limit.
@Firephoenix
Again the comparison to a regular slap is brought up for some reason. Benda is a technique. A move granted through training in the way of the void. It is specifically designed to cause abnormal amounts of pain to opponents. Poking someone's eyes or doing any form of damage will hurt yes, but it does the expected amount of pain. Benda does not do the expected amount at all. It's a slap at its core, yet it causes enough pain to kill with just a few hits. Your last example makes no sense as well. Why are you talking about causing pain to weaker people like a baby? Benda is pain manipulation bc it causes pain to people far stronger than the user not weaker. I'm not sure where you misunderstood that.
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Yeah, I agree honestly. I guess I more meant 'if it's anything it's limited' I tend to agree that it's not a power. Breaking someones skin and causing a lot of pain surely cannot be considered durability negation. Imagine Baki walking up to say Kaido (One Piece) and trying Brenda. It being Pain Manip and Durability negation is NLF.
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